Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Nurglitch wrote:I'm pretty sure Havocs can stand in cover...

But they can't move and fire to mitigate the effects of LoS blocking terrain.

Granted S&P means that you don't move far enough some times, a single wall or building won't leave the obliterators completely without effect.

Havocs can certainly move and fire. They just can't do that with Heavy Weapons. They have the options of Plasma Guns, Flamers, and Melta Guns.

If a single wall or building could block line of sight to a target unit, then being able to shuffle up to 6" left or right isn't going to help much. Think about it, suppose that your opponent knows you have Havocs and they're all armed with Heavy Weapons, and they're poorly positions so they only have a narrow corridor of fire. They can just move their units out of that corridor of fire, right? If the Obliterators were likewise poorly positioned they could readjust the breadth of their corridor of fire, right, so your opponent can't move out of it so easily. So why couldn't your opponent just move their unit out of the Obliterators' potential corridors of fire, as well as their actual corridors of fire?

Havocs, on the other hand, can have a Rhino, which gives them real mobility to move them into good positions, or to ensure that they can be re-positioned.

Nurglitch wrote:
Havocs, on the other hand, can have a Rhino, which gives them real mobility to move them into good positions, or to ensure that they can be re-positioned.

This is where a Predator has an advantage because its Rhino is built in so you don't need to spend the extra points and extra KP on buying it a transport. If (for whatever reason) it has a bad LOS, it can simply pack up, move 12" (probably pop smoke) and wait to fire until next turn.

Nurglitch wrote:I'm pretty sure Havocs can stand in cover...

I know right. An even smaller model not getting cover?

Maybe it's just a coincidence, but I always get these really insane arguments from the pure "Obliterators are necessary crowd". I mean, look at what weve had in this topic already: people saying that theyre more resilient, one guy making a few paragraphs of advantages that are the exact same for predators and havocs, havocs sucking in CC (even though theyre just as good as CSM) yet obliterators being good, havocs not being able to hide behind rhinos but oblits can...the list goes on.

Theyre all good. In my opinion a combination of cheaper units that are better at what they do is the better route, but if you like obliterators theres nothing wrong with that. Just dont slander the other options with ridiculous "facts". That's partly the reason oblits are the only things considered - because thats all you hear on the internet.

minigun:

Ah, but can the Predator, when it is Stunned or Shaken, disembark from its own hull and still shoot?

minigun762 wrote:

Nurglitch wrote:
Havocs, on the other hand, can have a Rhino, which gives them real mobility to move them into good positions, or to ensure that they can be re-positioned.

This is where a Predator has an advantage because its Rhino is built in so you don't need to spend the extra points and extra KP on buying it a transport. If (for whatever reason) it has a bad LOS, it can simply pack up, move 12" (probably pop smoke) and wait to fire until next turn.

Actually, a 35 point rhino is a huge advantage. I move my empty havoc rhino up front giving my other rhinos 4+ cover. If my opponent shoots at that rhino, hes shooting at an empty one. If he shoots at the ones behind, they get a 4+ save, and even if they blow up, my squad just goes into the rhino even further ahead and keeps on trekking up the board.

No other unit other than havocs can provide a rhino that can do this. Possessed require it and all troops require it. Maybe infiltrating chosen but theyre not that great in my opinion.

Ive actually been debating dropping one of two preds and having a second havoc squad with yet another rhino, as the first has proven to be pretty amazing. This squad would be more of a heavy weapons team (moreso than autocannons), maybe something like 2 missles and 2 lascannons. Its expensive, but Ive been debating trying it out.

Nurglitch wrote:Havocs can certainly move and fire. They just can't do that with Heavy Weapons. They have the options of Plasma Guns, Flamers, and Melta Guns.

Which is great, if you're using them with specials. I get special weapons in my Troops and Elite units, and need more range from my HS.

Nurglitch wrote:If a single wall or building could block line of sight to a target unit, then being able to shuffle up to 6" left or right isn't going to help much. Think about it, suppose that your opponent knows you have Havocs and they're all armed with Heavy Weapons, and they're poorly positions so they only have a narrow corridor of fire. They can just move their units out of that corridor of fire, right? If the Obliterators were likewise poorly positioned they could readjust the breadth of their corridor of fire, right, so your opponent can't move out of it so easily. So why couldn't your opponent just move their unit out of the Obliterators' potential corridors of fire, as well as their actual corridors of fire?

My experiences with them and terrain on several dozen different tables and terrain sets over the past three years show that the way you are presenting these situations is not in line with the reality of play, at the Baltimore GTs, Adepticon, or any store game, or convention tournament I have attended. By that I mean that I understand your point, but you are minimizing a very real factor which matters quite a bit and comes up frequently in games. In 5th edition the ability to move your heavy weapons a few inches before firing them has gained even more impact, due to true LOS. Even getting a sliver of your opponent’s model into LOS now means it can be destroyed, albeit with a cover save. The defensive advantage is even greater.

Nurglitch wrote:Havocs, on the other hand, can have a Rhino, which gives them real mobility to move them into good positions, or to ensure that they can be re-positioned.

Abolutely, and it's a great tool. But if you deploy a Rhino in front of your heavy weapon-equipped Havocs, and your opponent Immobilizes, Stuns, or Wrecks it on turn one, you lose a turn of shooting. If the same thing happens to Oblits, they just move on top of or around the edge of the wreck, and fire anyway.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Night Lords wrote:Actually, a 35 point rhino is a huge advantage. I move my empty havoc rhino up front giving my other rhinos 4+ cover. If my opponent shoots at that rhino, hes shooting at an empty one. If he shoots at the ones behind, they get a 4+ save, and even if they blow up, my squad just goes into the rhino even further ahead and keeps on trekking up the board.

No other unit other than havocs can provide a rhino that can do this. Possessed require it and all troops require it. Maybe infiltrating chosen but theyre not that great in my opinion.

Ive actually been debating dropping one of two preds and having a second havoc squad with yet another rhino, as the first has proven to be pretty amazing. This squad would be more of a heavy weapons team (moreso than autocannons), maybe something like 2 missles and 2 lascannons. Its expensive, but Ive been debating trying it out.

I like the way you think, and have been toying with this idea as well. I really like my Havoc squad, and use it quite a bit. It just doesn’t give me the flexibility or mobility that I find I need and get from Oblits.

Mannahnin:

You are aware that you can combine special weapons and Heavy weapons in the same squad, right? They can also move and fire with the Bolters from the other members of the squad you can purchase (they don't just catch bullets...), and the Aspiring Champion can bring along a Combi-weapon. Moving does not have to neuter a Havoc squad.

Secondly, you miss my point about lines of sight. Yes, maybe you can and have moved 2" with Obliterators that allowed you to see a sliver of a tank and destroy it. That's not the point. My point is this: if your opponent can move out of your line of sight, and wants to move out of line of sight, and they're aware that the 5th edition line of sight rules will give your Obliterators a line of sight if some sliver of the hull is visible, then they can move out of line of sight of Obliterators, as well as out of line of sight of Havocs.

I agree with you, moving out of a line of sight is easier to do with Havocs than with Obliterators. Yes, those extra two and half degrees can make a difference, but knowing these things, knowing that all the Obliterators need to do is move 1" to their right and you're risking a Lascannon shot to the side armour, simply changes the value you associate with breaking lines of sight.

I mean I've played in tournaments (WFB, but still), and we're all familiar with the people who show up and that try to do something (say, charging) which doesn't work out because they're not familiar enough with exactly how far 8" looks on the field, that their enemy is just out of range, or they didn't allocate enough firepower to dispose of dangerous enemy units because they decided to play the odds instead of the priorities.

Maybe you feel that I'm minimizing the fact that some people suck at this game, but the utility in a unit does not lie with the fact that your opponent will occasionally be one of those people.

Nurglitch wrote:minigun:

Ah, but can the Predator, when it is Stunned or Shaken, disembark from its own hull and still shoot?

Doesn't shaken/stunned stop the squad from shooting as well? Even if it doesn't, disembarking will cost you a round of fire from your heavies.

Nurglitch wrote:You are aware that you can combine special weapons and Heavy weapons in the same squad, right? They can also move and fire with the Bolters from the other members of the squad you can purchase (they don't just catch bullets...), and the Aspiring Champion can bring along a Combi-weapon. Moving does not have to neuter a Havoc squad.

As I previously stated, having my special weapon needs adequately met elsewhere in the army, I need long-ranged capability from my HS. I can absolutely see the value of special weapon-equipped Havocs, but they do not meet the needs I find I have to fill against fast-moving and/or long-ranged enemy armies.

If the Havoc squad needs to fire at something farther than 18” away, moving does indeed neuter the Havoc squad.

Nurglitch wrote:Secondly, you miss my point about lines of sight. Yes, maybe you can and have moved 2" with Obliterators that allowed you to see a sliver of a tank and destroy it. That's not the point. My point is this: if your opponent can move out of your line of sight, and wants to move out of line of sight, and they're aware that the 5th edition line of sight rules will give your Obliterators a line of sight if some sliver of the hull is visible, then they can move out of line of sight of Obliterators, as well as out of line of sight of Havocs.

This is simply untrue. Whether he can get out of the potential LOS of the Oblits is a matter of the physical size of the terrain feature and the targeted unit. The Oblits have a substantially larger range of possible fire angles on any given turn than a unit of Havocs with heavy weapons does. While you can (and I sometimes do) spread out the Havocs to cover more angles, you sometimes wind up only being able to get one or two of the missile weapons into range or LOS, not the whole squad. Further, you cannot maximize the spread of the unit as much as you would like, as you almost always want to keep the heavy weapons within a chain, not separated by bullet-catchers. Occasionally Oblits will wind up not being able to get all models to gain LOS on the target as well, due to an insufficient Relentless move roll, but the occurrence of this is considerably less than the rate at which a Havoc with Missile Launcher is unable to get the shot at a unit out of his LOS at the start of his movement phase.

Nurglitch wrote:Maybe you feel that I'm minimizing the fact that some people suck at this game, but the utility in a unit does not lie with the fact that your opponent will occasionally be one of those people.

I reject the argument that any part of my position is based on a lack of my opponents’ skill.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

minigun762 wrote:

Nurglitch wrote:minigun:

Ah, but can the Predator, when it is Stunned or Shaken, disembark from its own hull and still shoot?

Doesn't shaken/stunned stop the squad from shooting as well? Even if it doesn't, disembarking will cost you a round of fire from your heavies.

Exactly so.

minigun762:

Indeed, but as I keep pointing out, Havocs aren't necessarily armed with Heavy weapons.

Consider the following configuration:

10 Havocs w/Two Autocannons, two Plasma Guns

In a Rhino they can:

Produce 4 S7 shots at 48" if the Rhino doesn't move.

Produce 4 S7 shots at 12" if the Rhino moves, either from the Rhino's fire point at combat speed, or having disembarked if the Rhino has moved at cruising speed, meaning they have an effective range of 18" if they stay in the Rhino and 26" if they disembark from a skidding Rhino.

And, of course, they get all the Bolter shots once they've dismounted. Those guys can do more than catch bullets...

So yes, Shaken/Stunned damage results do indeed prevent an embarked squad from shooting, but not one that's disembarked.

So Mannahnin, you can clearly see that a squad of Havocs in a Rhino can give your Havoc squad the ability to engage a target 26" away, with Melta Guns and Plasma Guns.

Do they need to move? No, because the interesting thing about Warhammer 40k is that it tends to hold true to the dictum that if you can shoot them, they can shoot you. If you have Havocs then presumably you have other units in an army. That's my point, if they can avoid Havocs, then they can avoid Obliterators. Indeed, if they can avoid Havocs then they can avoid the entire army - but who cares? If they're not in line of sight to your army then they can't shoot, and its not like there's any skimmers that are also assault vehicles.

If you reject any argument that your own position is based on your then rejoice, because my argument is that the utility you're ascribing to Obliterators is not the result of your opponent's inability, but the fact that you predicate it on your opponents' mistakes. Surely you understand the difference.

Incidentally, can you actually compose posts, or are you limited to quote-cutting?

Nurglitch wrote:Do they need to move? No, because the interesting thing about Warhammer 40k is that it tends to hold true to the dictum that if you can shoot them, they can shoot you. If you have Havocs then presumably you have other units in an army. That's my point, if they can avoid Havocs, then they can avoid Obliterators.

If you are playing with LOS-blocking terrain and/or vehicles on the table, and have mobile units, you can (and with good play, increasingly will) create situations where you can hurt the enemy (or at least the bits you need to, for the mission or situation) while limiting his ability to hurt you. This can include creating situations where your stuff can see his but not vice-versa. Particularly so when vehicles are involved, as any part of a vehicle's hull is a target, but a much smaller percentage of the vehicle can draw LOS to you to shoot back. As I have already stated, it is my experience (and I suspect a mathematically-demonstrable truth) that the ability of Obliterators to move and fire allows them to cover a wider range of angles and hit a larger number of potential targets then a squad of Havocs with heavy weapons.

Nurglitch wrote:Indeed, if they can avoid Havocs then they can avoid the entire army - but who cares? If they're not in line of sight to your army then they can't shoot, and its not like there's any skimmers that are also assault vehicles.

It is my experience that a player, using terrain, can reduce the amount of incoming fire from enemy weapons. And can do this to a greater extent against enemy weapons which cannot move and fire. While it is highly unlikely that an opponent can completely avoid the Havocs, it is easier for him to reduce their opportunities to hit optimal targets than it is for him to do the same against move & fire units like Obliterators.

Nurglitch wrote:If you reject any argument that your own position is based on your then rejoice, because my argument is that the utility you're ascribing to Obliterators is not the result of your opponent's inability, but the fact that you predicate it on your opponents' mistakes. Surely you understand the difference.

Certainly. But your previous post seemed to clearly imply that my opponents' inability was based on their lack of skill, rather than the physical realities of the tabletop. IME the number of places a player can hide my desired targets, the blind spots inaccessible to my Heavy Support units' fire, is smaller for Obliterators than it is for Havocs. This has consistently held true against a wide variety of armies, and a large number of players, over a large number of games, on dozens of different tables and terrain setups, in several different US states, with terrain provided by many different people. I'm sorry I never completed that tournament report from last month. But in the battle report I did complete, for one example, when my opponent dropped Drop Pods into my deployment zone, they interfered with my Havoc squad's ability to get clear shots at more desirable targets. But they impaired my Oblits to a much lesser extent, thanks to their mobility.

Nurglitch wrote:Incidentally, can you actually compose posts, or are you limited to quote-cutting?

I don't often have the time I would like to compose a whole standalone post. When I am having a detailed discussion with someone, I often find that quoting and responding directly to the points I agree or disagree with is a good way to avoid misunderstandings and be clear what point is being raised in relation to what.

Mannahnin:

Posting without quote-cutting it easy. Just compose your post the way that you normally would, and leave the quotes out. Then just bridge the paragraphs by some connecting or over-arching theme or point. Doing this is actually quicker than pressing the quote button and caIf people wonder what you're addressing in my post, they can scroll back up. Then they'll actually get the context of my post, rather than a handful of selectively edited quotes.

Then you would understand that I am not arguing that Obliterators aren't able to add potential lines of sight to their actual (static) lines of sight. Of course they can. As you say its "mathematically-demonstrable". My point is that these additional lines of sight are moot, since I was talking about a Havoc squad in general and not just a Havoc squad with Heavy Weapons.

If you believe that one of my previous posts clearly implied that my point related to a lack of skill among your opponents, rather than to your opponents' mistakes, then I don't know how to make my point clear to you. I can't make you see the forest if you're fixated on trees.

So yeah, maybe your Havoc squad was static. Not all Havoc squads are static. I've pointed out a configuration that is not static, and that even without a Rhino is more mobile than an equivalent pointed Obliterator unit. I believe that in trying to address each of my sub-points separately you managed to miss both the context (all Havocs, not just static Havocs), and my point.

Which, of course, if why I would prefer it if you didn't quote-cut, because it impedes communication rather than facilitates it.

My havocs are completely static, a lot of the time not moving all game, and Ive never had trouble. I even play on terrain heavy boards. They can always shoot main firing lanes and protect my rhinos, so its not really a big deal.

Well, 1/3 of the deployments MAKE you move your havocs

Sanctjud wrote:Well, 1/3 of the deployments MAKE you move your havocs

I was about to say that. Dawn of War cripples havocs.


I am surprised at everyone's experiences with oblits. Everyone talks about how easy they are to kill. That has not been my experience. In fact, I find them very difficult to kill.

Here is how you play Oblits:
#1. Always start on the board, never deep strike.
#2. Hide them behind a land raider/rhino or a piece of LOS blocking terrain that you can easily get out from behind even if you roll badly on the slow and purposeful roll.
#3. When it is your turn, move out from behind cover and shoot everything that has an AP2, strength 8+ weapon.
#4. Suffer a few casualties from what little AP2 Strength 8+ shooting your opponent has left.
#5. Next turn finish off anything that has a Strength 8+ AP2 weapon.
#6. Laugh since they can't kill your oblits.


If you really take a look at army lists, there is very little long-range, strength 8+, AP2 weaponry out there (Bright Lances, Lascannons, Rail Guns, etc ).

I will venture a guess that in most chaos armies the only things that they have that can kill oblits at range are Land Raiders and other oblits, and that is why oblits are necessary in a chaos army. If you opponent has oblits, you will need them to take them out.

The rest of your army can handle anything that carries a melta, so Oblits are free to do damage, and are very hard to stop.

Youve got to be kidding me. One turn, where there's bloody night fighting, cripples the havocs? If you go first you probably even wont be able to shoot, so now its 1/6. Night fighting will also reduce odds.

Move 12", get out 2", youre in position.

Sorry, not seeing it.

Night Lords wrote: Night fighting will also reduce odds.

Sorry, not seeing it.

LOL its night fighting!!!

Anyway, everyone has agreed and agreed to disagree about every possible pro and con for Preds, Oblits, and Hovocs.

At this point I wanna run 1 Pred, 1 unit of Havocs w/ AC, and 1 unit of Oblits in my next game! since each unit has a different strenght and different weakness, f*** it and throw them all together just to see what happens. Thus with all 3 I can create three different long range threats, to me I think that would work out the best, and most hilarious!

minigun762 wrote:

Iboshi2 wrote:
just a different perspective for you, 'cause it seems like everyone here is playing 'as' the oblits, not against them.

That is useful I think. Its one thing to approach it from the perspective of using the units but its quite another to discuss it from the other side of the table.

For your money, what would have been scarier then Oblits?

For my money- Khorne Bezerkers in conjunction with Glory meltas, in rhinos. The Bezerkers are just brutal vs. anything when charging, and the scoring melta squad is such a pain.

Also, I'm usually up vs. a terminator squad, which has a few combi-meltas, just to keep from getting tank shocked. They're a bother, depending on the Icon they take (Tzeentch usually)

As I said above Oblits get killed by long range strength 8+ AP2 weaponry. There is really not as much out there as you would think. Short of that, Obits are really hard to kill with 2 wounds and 2+ save.

Havocs on the other hand get killed by everything. Heavy Bolters, Missile Launchers, Missile Pods and a host of other long range weaponry that Oblits shrug off.

Not only that, but havocs just do not have the flexibility in weapon options that Oblits have in a take-all-comers environment. The ability to take a host of different weapons is incredibly valuable.

I am a big fan of Oblits and nearly always take at least 1 or 2 in any given army list.

They can take on so much, they are also as tough as termies so you dont have to have them sit atteh back, you can walk them forward whiel shooting.

Exaple: I had a game against a WE army a week or so ago. My unit of 3 Oblits took out a Land Raider, 2 Rhinos, a Dread and a DP (mass plasmagun shots, lol). All the while stalking forward and takign out targets of opportunity.

I wouldn't say they are the be-all-and-end-all, as there are other units which are cheaper/better armoured/more specialised. But they definately have their place.

I don't think anyone is arguing that Obliterators don't have a place, just that they're not necessary for a competitive army.

That's what i just said.

And I agreed.

Curious, isn't it?

Billie_Joe wrote:
At this point I wanna run 1 Pred, 1 unit of Havocs w/ AC, and 1 unit of Oblits in my next game! since each unit has a different strenght and different weakness, f*** it and throw them all together just to see what happens. Thus with all 3 I can create three different long range threats, to me I think that would work out the best, and most hilarious!

You should really. Play 2-3 games with them and see what happens.

From personal experience I run Defilers or Vindicators most games for my heavies... why? because they're damn rad! Also when I wanna run my lash prince for S&G people can't bitch I'm being cheesy and doing lash spam. Plus having 3 defilers on the board makes most opponents go "wtf?" and focus fire them while my zerkers and PM's chew through their army BWA HAHA!

When i do my double vindicator madness is when I whip out havocs. They're built to blow up tin cans, which works perfect with my big ol' blasts.

As everyone said, each unit has its uses. I see Oblits as the mid-heavy armor poppers, havocs as transport poppers, and everything else is in between. Try em out and see what you like, making a competitive list doesn't mean you have to cookie cutter (tho many peeps do)

I think something to point out would be that whatever works best for Heavy Support (or Elites for that matter) really depends on what else you have in your army and what you want to do with it (or, put another way, how you plan to win with it).

After all, we're all familiar with the utility of combining a Lash of Submission with template and blast weapons, and the importance of interdicting enemy tanks while our own metal boxes are swarming up the field. The question is then, what are the other matching sets?

That's a new question, though.

Getting back to the earlier discussion-

I can, of course, write a post without using quotes from the person to whom I am responding. IME, however, I tend to find that quoting helps keep individual points from being lost in the shuffle, when multiple sub-arguments are in progress. And it’s an old habit. I think I’ve been doing it for most of the last ten years on this site. I’m sorry if you don’t find it as useful or clear as I do.

Nurglitch, at 2010/01/29 00:29:58 wrote:If you believe that one of my previous posts clearly implied that my point related to a lack of skill among your opponents, rather than to your opponents' mistakes, then I don't know how to make my point clear to you. I can't make you see the forest if you're fixated on trees.

Nurglitch, at 2010/01/28 20:53:28 wrote:I mean I've played in tournaments (WFB, but still), and we're all familiar with the people who show up and that try to do something (say, charging) which doesn't work out because they're not familiar enough with exactly how far 8" looks on the field, that their enemy is just out of range, or they didn't allocate enough firepower to dispose of dangerous enemy units because they decided to play the odds instead of the priorities.

Maybe you feel that I'm minimizing the fact that some people suck at this game, but the utility in a unit does not lie with the fact that your opponent will occasionally be one of those people.

I don’t think that comment was a useful response to what I had posted, but perhaps I simply did not express myself well enough. You seem to get the idea in the bit below:

Nurglitch wrote:Then you would understand that I am not arguing that Obliterators aren't able to add potential lines of sight to their actual (static) lines of sight. Of course they can. As you say its "mathematically-demonstrable". My point is that these additional lines of sight are moot, since I was talking about a Havoc squad in general and not just a Havoc squad with Heavy Weapons.

So yeah, maybe your Havoc squad was static. Not all Havoc squads are static. I've pointed out a configuration that is not static, and that even without a Rhino is more mobile than an equivalent pointed Obliterator unit. I believe that in trying to address each of my sub-points separately you managed to miss it.

No, I don’t think it has anything to do with the quote approach, as clearly we’re talking past each other a bit here. I know that you’re talking about Havocs in a broader sense. But I have made clear in my previous posts that I’m not. I have repeatedly stated that Havocs with special weapons do not fill the role or the need I see for a competitive CSM army.

IME CSM need long-ranged firepower from their HS. Specifically I find that with CSM I need a few units capable of killing or disabling enemy vehicles and other hard targets early, and at long range, both to cripple enemy mobility and to reduce their ability to shoot back, killing my Oblits and my transports. Havocs and Obliterators both fill this role, and I use them both. IME Obliterators provide some vital functionality which Havocs do not. Obliterators can make better use of, and better reduce enemy use of, cover and terrain. Obliterators can fire the turn they move onto the board if they are in reserve (particularly in Dawn of War, which forces me to put either unit in reserve). Obliterators also have better chances of damaging AV13 and 14 at long range for the cost, as I find lascannon-equipped havocs to be prohibitively expensive in points.

To readdress minigun’s initial post, I concur that Troops are essential for a successful competitive CSM army, but I believe that proper support is also vital. Without support units capable of killing or weakening an opponent’s mobility and shooting, our Troops can be destroyed at a distance, or isolated and eliminated piecemeal. Within the context of the tournaments and games I have played since 5th edition was released, and the armies I see on the tables and in reports, Obliterators and “termicide” squads are both very useful units. IME and from careful consideration, Obliterators offer extremely useful abilities which no other unit in the codex can duplicate. While the fact that the relative importance of a unit depends on what else is in the list is axiomatic, the utility of Obliterators is pretty close to universal. At least within the competitive environments of which I am aware.

Mannahin's arguments make a lot of sense.

IMO it is easier to be competitive with Oblits (I've never liked termicide), but not required. Oblits will suffer vs. the mirrir matchup of 5-man chosen squads with lascannons. 3 of those will plunk away at the oblits, along with any troop based lascannons and other oblits as well.

I am more and more of a fan of the 5-man chosen squad with a lascannon just for this reason.