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@minigun762:

Because I modeled them as two distinct squads of three.
I don’t want that additional kill point.
If you arrange the bases touching 2 others you get the nurgle symbol.

3x2 gives you more flexibility with targets, but 2x3 has done well enough for me, though I don’t have a reason at this moment why it would be better…maybe it’s a concentration if fire that works for me.

@Night Lords:
-Preds: yea, but they, like the oblits can die from one shot…so they will be seeking cover, in addition, their side armor is pretty wide. I don’t remember the last time the front armor was the only option to destroy them…

-Agreed on both points for havocs.

Oblits are purely a swiss army knife, able to support anything at a given time, though you pay for it.
Havocs are great for maximum output.
Preds are good for specializing.
Vindi: with the all-comer ordinance, balanced by range and singleminded ness.
Defiler: somewhat opposite to the vindi by being all over the place. A swiss army knife of a different taste .

The survivability of obliterators is a myth.

People don't go on and on about the survivability of terminators, because honestly they're not that durable either.

Guess what, you pay more points per wound for an obliterator than you do for a terminator, and on top of that you are vulnerable to ID.

Many people pack their armies to the gills with melta weapons. Against most vehicles those melta weapons need to close to half range to be effective. Against obliterators a multimelta land speeder can sit comfortably at 24" and have a very decent chance of popping an obliterator with each shot.

One of the points about the survivability of Obliterators is that early in the game, if you start them on the board, the only stuff that'll have them in range will be anti-tank weapons. There's not many anti-infantry weapons with a 48" range.

@willydstyle:
Sit in cover = profit.
At least for me.
I don't know ID is something you just have to live with when you get to use something as awesome-sauce as the SwissArmyKnifeliterators.

As obliterators already have a 5+ invulnerable cover does not increase their survivability by a large degree. It is significant, but it's not significant enough to make them more survivable than a predator against most high-str AP2 weapons.

With all the outflanking and "suprise -zeks!" units out and about these days in so many armies, Havocs can be killed rather quickly. Any turn for them spent in CC is a turn wasted for that unit (and they'll probably get rocked too).

Oblits are by no means a "ZOMG!" kinda unit. They're a nuisance for your enemy. "Well I can pop some rhinos with all those zerkers and marines in them or attempt to down some oblits..." Either way your opponent is screwed. Shots spent on oblits mean your troops get into position to put foot to ass. Shots spent on your troops mean your Oblits get closer and stop your opponents spear head.

Also Oblits win over Havocs b/c of Relentless. Always on the go and always dishing out some hate down range.

/shrug.
Preds and oblits are there for different reasons though.
From what I've seen:

Oblits prized weapons are the plasma cannon and multi-melta.
Preds I've seen are the AC/LC variety and the dakka varient.

You pay for the flexibility of hte oblits... simple as that.
While you tailor to what you need/want with preds.

I've sat in cover with oblits and thrown rhinos with plague marines and daemon princes at my opponents... at least that makes them torn between those two elements.

Those weapons that inconvience the pred are pretty lethal to the oblits, but I do like the black and whitness of death or alive, instead a of a pred sitting around not doing anything for a turn, it's not terminal, but I just have no need of it at the moment.

In addition, Oblits are 1 of 2 unique choices to chaos in the hvy support section, so generally for me, it's a choice between the Obliterator and the Defiler.

But the pred layout that I posted earlier has both effectiveness at anti-mech, anti-infantry, durability, and is more cost efficient.

I do agree that just running predators for HS makes it feel like you might as well play loyalist, but since they took away most of the really good stuff that made Chaos unique with this last codex... well what can we do? Plague marines, berzerkers and obliterators is pretty much all that separates us from guys who don't wear spikes.

willydstyle wrote:
I do agree that just running predators for HS makes it feel like you might as well play loyalist, but since they took away most of the really good stuff that made Chaos unique with this last codex... well what can we do? Plague marines, berzerkers and obliterators is pretty much all that separates us from guys who don't wear spikes.

Sad but true.

EDIT: And no, Summoned Lesser and Greater Crap does not count.

... well what can we do? Plague marines, berzerkers and obliterators is pretty much all that separates us from guys who don't wear spikes.

& tey R the WiN!
________________________

3x predator, AC turret, Lascannon Sponsons, Havoc Missile Launcher.

(With respect to one pred vs. 2 oblits).
Anti-infantry: it depends on the unit really... the plasma cannon on the oblit does ANY infantry, in addition, the 2 blast templates worth is brutal with the new rules on their resolution.
Anti-tank, the AC/LC is best at transport popping, due to the Ap1 and 2D6, the oblits have the option for taking out heavier tanks.
Durability: it's all relative here.
Cost Efficient, by a handful of points...a mile or nothing for some.

At the end of the day, they still fulfill 2 similar but different roles...a direct comparison will fail IMO. I just depends on what your list needs and how you play.
At the very least preds are static if you want maximum output, while Oblits are a bit more dynamic.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@A-P:
Not sure what you are suggesting in that last part, but lesser daemons have earned a place in my lists...though the Greater Daemon has not been too hot for me, though others had better.

bd1085 wrote:With all the outflanking and "suprise -zeks!" units out and about these days in so many armies, Havocs can be killed rather quickly. Any turn for them spent in CC is a turn wasted for that unit (and they'll probably get rocked too).

Oblits are by no means a "ZOMG!" kinda unit. They're a nuisance for your enemy. "Well I can pop some rhinos with all those zerkers and marines in them or attempt to down some oblits..." Either way your opponent is screwed. Shots spent on oblits mean your troops get into position to put foot to ass. Shots spent on your troops mean your Oblits get closer and stop your opponents spear head.

Also Oblits win over Havocs b/c of Relentless. Always on the go and always dishing out some hate down range.

I can change this whole post around:

-----
With all the outflanking and "suprise -zeks!" units out and about these days in so many armies, Oblits can be killed even easier than before. Any turn for them spent in CC is a turn wasted for that unit (and they'll probably get rocked too).

Predators are by no means a "ZOMG!" kinda unit. They're a nuisance for your enemy. "Well I can pop some rhinos with all those zerkers and marines in them or attempt to down some preds..." Either way your opponent is screwed. Shots spent on preds mean your troops get into position to put foot to ass. Shots spent on your troops mean your predators get to shoot 4 high strength shots next turn. (Its funny because preds are ~33% less likely to die to long range fire than oblits)

Also Havocs win over Oblits b/c of cost, durability, fire output, better CC and reliability. Always popping transports each turn and dishing out some hate down range.
----

Speaking to the distinction between Marines who wear spikes and Marines who don't, I'd say that Chaos Marines are well-distinguished from their Loyalist brethren. When I started back into the game I decided to play dual Blood Angels/Chaos Space Marines, designing an army that would let me field two nigh-equivalent lists.

It turns out that And They Shall Know No Fear and Combat Squads makes an incredible difference. Even moreso when the new Codex: Space Marines book came out, where Combat Tactics made another big distinction.

You can see this yourself by designing an army that can be fielded using both Chaos Space Marinea and Space Marine lists. They behave very differently and I'm very happy with that.

Mind you, I now have a dedicated Space Marine army and a dedicated Chaos Space Marine army, but I'm glad that the initial aesthetic choice forced me to learn the differences between the two books.

@Night Lords:
At least with the outflanking stuff, the oblits can deploy on the sides and make their way (slowly) to the center and actually move away from the sides.

Actually... anything hanging out on the flanks would be screwed either way.
Target saturation works with either.
Both deal damage best to different units.

In essense, you are just showing us that they are both functional.

@Nurglitch:
I have both too... though both have a Nurgle Theme to them.

Mech Plague marine/DP/Oblits for CSM.
All Bikers/Assault termies for the SM.

So...quite different and quite similar at the same time. There is no doubt that CSM joes are more at home in the thick of it while the loyalist prefer to shoot it dead.

But when you look at it:
10 Havocs, 4 MLs
10 Devs, 4 MLs
Their primary purpose is the same and since this is a result of 'spiky marine' comment, it's all based on looks......you have 10 meqs loaded up with the same 4 weapons...they look the same. (I can't stress enough that this part is just based on my opinions of how they look, and getting off topic sadly, my bad )

Yep, that's what I get for leaping before I look. Ignore me.

The strength IMHO in Havocs is that they can take EITHER special or heavy weapons. As far as being scared of Outflanking units, sure its something to keep in mind when deploying, but why worry about it too much? Either deploy your Havocs with a supporting unit, or don't stick them over to the side! And really how big of a deal is it? Your opponent has 1 unit that is going to come on the board as early as turn 2 so that they can kill 1 unit?! Sure its an equal trade, but in the end, while your Havocs may be gone, your opponent has just wasted one of their units taking them out, and are now stuck on that side of the board.

I can do without Termicides as they really only have one function to kill AV14 like land raiders and backfield AV14 like Russes and not every list has these.

Obliterators I find it very hard to do without at least 1 unit of 2 or 3 as a heavy choice as they are a swiss army knife unit that provides las cannons for shooting transports early game, multimeltas for killing vehicles that come close, plasma cannons for killing hard infantry like terminators or space marines (even better with lash). They do get insta killed by Strength 8 + but if you deploy in cover you get a cover save and if they shoot your obliterators they are not shooting Rhinos and other vehicles.

I tend to mix up my heavies. One unit of 2-3 Obliterators, A Possessed Vindicator and a Possesed Land raider which carries either terminators or berserkers is my usual.

I'd add that nothing forces you to take special weapons or Heavy Weapons, and that mixing them in the squad can give you the advantages of both, for a premium.

Havocs are good at one thing; light armor popping. Autocannons and ML's work wonders, and you can give em a swamp of wounds. HOWEVER, the main issue I have with havocs is cost, and the lack of plasma cannons. If you could take havocs w/ PC's I'd probably run them over oblits everytime. But as it is, havocs are expensive for what they do, and being as lascannons aren't the best thing for AV 14, I find I only really run them with AC's to pop rhinos, chimeras, and maybe the occassional wave serpent.

As for oblits survivability, it sucks. Like others said, they are easily taken down by anti-vehicle stuff, and most people will focus on them right off if they see DP's on the board. Even in cover thats a 50% chance to lose a 75 point model to one shot, which can be brutal. Combined with things like leman russ executioners who can lob 20 billion plasmacannons and probably wipe out oblits in 1 volley, they aren't as good as they once were. The biggest issue I've seen of late is against 'Nids, trygons and the like make hell on things like oblits.

Predators are a good choice I think in some games, but personally I don't like to run them. 140+ points for a good tank popper, that can get shaken/stunned, and only has good armor in the frontal arc is a bit much for me to swallow. Combined with the fact you can't really move anywhere because then you can only shoot 1 gun kinda guts their effectiveness. 40k seems to be all about mobility anymore, and having to stand still to get the most out of something is rarely a good thing.

The answer is: MOOR TRUUPS!!!
Drown them in Scoring Bodies and scoring special weapon/close combat weapon wielders.....IN METAL BOXES!!!

Sanctjud wrote:The answer is: MOOR TRUUPS!!!
Drown them in Scoring Bodies and scoring special weapon/close combat weapon wielders.....IN METAL BOXES!!!

Tin can spam FTW! follow the space wolves lead ROWR!

An interesting thing about Lascannons is that they aren't the best thing for AV14 all the time, but they are the best thing for AV14 on Turn 1. If you can slow down, or even immobilize a Land Raider full of Loyalist Goons, interdict some artillery or squadron of Leman Russes, or ensure the fiery death of a Rhino or squadron of Land Speeders, then the premium will start paying itself off with dividends.

After all, nothing is saying that you can't take two Lascannons, and two Melta Guns...

The lack of Plasma Cannons is a bit of a downer, but I've come to love Autocannons for their extra range and reliability (both the extra shot and the lack of Gets Hot!). I do miss their destructiveness against infantry, but they're a better anti-vehicle and monster weapon. They curiously match their fluff.

I think that's the reason why people like the Plasma Cannons on Obliterators so much: because they also have Lascannons to crack people out of their metal coffins first. But five Havocs with four Autocannons will cost 5pts more, produce 4x as many shots (2x shots with Missile Launchers), and then ladle that fire onto troops that will probably have cover anyways because they're camping the crater that was their metal box.

I miss tank hunting Autocannons...ahh the good old days when my havocs were 'must haves'.
/sob.

I kind of prefer an army list that has several live options per slot rather than one "must-have" in any slot. "Must-haves" make for a dull game, because everyone's army looks the same!

Well... Infiltrating Havocs were popular too, and you had either/or, but not both... so there was much variety in the past
But this was 3.5 Dex where cookie cutting/internet lists were IMO rare...

Sanctjud wrote:Well... Infiltrating Havocs were popular too, and you had either/or, but not both... so there was much variety in the past
But this was 3.5 Dex where cookie cutting/internet lists were IMO rare...

Cuz you had legions, and legions were rad... now we have "ZOMG I'M NURGLKHORNNESHIMARINES LOLZ!"

I miss legions :( Or at least fluffy rules like spiky tanks :(

Nurglitch wrote:
I think that's the reason why people like the Plasma Cannons on Obliterators so much: because they also have Lascannons to crack people out of their metal coffins first. But five Havocs with four Autocannons will cost 5pts more, produce 4x as many shots (2x shots with Missile Launchers), and then ladle that fire onto troops that will probably have cover anyways because they're camping the crater that was their metal box.

With easy access to squads with 2+ Plasmaguns or Meltaguns, are we really hurting for AP2 firepower?

Plasma Cannons are nice but I get the sense from alot of people that they're mandatory choices and if you're not running PC, you're at a significant disadvantage and I just don't see how this is true.

If you factor in the +12" that either an Autocannon or Missile Launcher has, it seems that against the majority of targets you're likely to break even on killing.

I've been playing a number of games vs. one of my main opponents, who is working on getting better with CSM. I have seen obliterators under perform over and over again.

As someone who doesn't play a CSM list, I'm not worried at all when I see obliterators deployed. I can discount them, as being only a minor threat compared to what else is in the chaos army.

For shooting, Oblits like to stay 36-48" away, perfect for me to retaliate with my lascannons, making them effectively one wound, 4 or 5+ save models. Why would I shoot anything else out there? They take an HS slot, which will usually mean less tanks to shoot at, resulting in free str 8-9 guns. If there happens to be a saturation of HS (oblits, defiler, defiler?) that means that there's not enough points in troops, and I can usually end the game right there.

In melee, Their small squad size usually means I don't even need to reach down to the PF before they get taken down by having to make numerous saves.
(Marines can fire bolt pistols + special, charge, hit first, and kill the oblit(s) with decent reliability.)

In their support, they do hold the rare ability to reposition and maintain full fire, which I have seen used effectively vs. Fast moving transports which evade static defenders.

just a different perspective for you, 'cause it seems like everyone here is playing 'as' the oblits, not against them.

Iboshi2 wrote:
just a different perspective for you, 'cause it seems like everyone here is playing 'as' the oblits, not against them.

That is useful I think. Its one thing to approach it from the perspective of using the units but its quite another to discuss it from the other side of the table.

For your money, what would have been scarier then Oblits?

Oblits are pretty much necessary, for most of the reasons identified. They provide flexible firepower, particularly multiple mobile lascannons in a single slot, at a decent price. Moving and firing is a key consideration, both for reducing the impact of cover to the enemy’s benefit, and for maximizing it for yourself. A 4+ cover is not reliable, but certainly better than standing in the open. And with the use of hills, ruins and buildings with intact walls, and friendly vehicles (particularly Rhinos on turn 1) you can often hide them entirely from at least SOME, if not all, of your opponent’s lascannons and multimeltas, while still getting all their own shots off . Havocs and Predators can’t do this.

Termicide is less compulsory, IME, but within the tournament metagame of multiple competitive lists using AV14 vehicles as linchpins, they become an important tool. If you don't face many of those armies in your area, it's not a critical component of a successful list.

I'm pretty sure Havocs can stand in cover...