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If you're moving, on a good day, 6" in the movement phase, you will either be:

Out of range for flamers

-or-

Assaulted by the enemy.

The situations where an infantry-speed model gets to use flamers are rare against good players.

imweasel wrote:

Night Lords wrote:Obliterators are going to do what? Charge towards 30 orks and use their versatility?

No, that's what the rest of your list is for.

That's exactly my point. If all the lascannon targets are dead, what are the oblits going to do that is even worth mentioning? The rest of our army takes down horde just fine (that's actually what they excel at), so why do we need 225 points of obliterators shooting a couple of flamers?

Blackmoor wrote:Here is another reason why Oblits are better than Preds: Tyranid shooting can take out a pred without too much problem. Tyranid shooting has a problem killing Oblits. (I will not get into how they lose most of their firepower when they move, they have weak side and rear armor, and they can be stunned. and it is much harder to given them a cover save than oblits).

Are you kidding me? Please tell me youre kidding...? Most Nid shooting is S6. Tyranid shooting is exceptionally bad against armour, let alone AV13 which everyone struggles with. They have two main options - Hive Guard, which shoot Strength 8 shots 24" (~3% chance to destroy predator, ~9% chance to kill oblit [assuming theyre not ap2 which I dont think they are]), and Zoans which annihilate both, but have to be pretty close. If Zoans are going to suicide behind me and blow up a predator, that's perfectly fine.

I also love how you only bring up the "negative" points about the pred. Here let me address them:


-Cant move and shoot, as opposed to moving 3-4 inches with oblits? Fantastic. My Predator barely moves at all, and when it does it can move 12", tank shocking or claiming objectives. Ill take those pros over moving an few inches a turn, especially since it can turn and shoot for free.

-Weak Side/Rear Armour. If youre getting hit on rear armour, there is seriously something wrong. As for side, only outflankers (atleast turn 2+) completely dedicated to dispatching of my predator are going to get side armour...provided they get the right side, have range, no terrain in the way (love hugging those buildings). And even then, by then the predator has already made its points back.

-Can be stunned! My absolute favourite point to counter in all W40k discussions. Seriously, Im loving the anticipation here. Guess what? Did you know that the odds of a Lascannon (Strg 9, let alone Strg 8 which IK's Oblits) stunning a predator are lower than the odds of that same lascannon killing an oblit? It's more like thank you, he's only stunned instead of dead!

Plus, did you know that stunning a Chaos Predator is actually good for a Chaos player? If you had something that was actually able to hit AV13, you just wasted it on a 130 point predator instead of the squads of rhinos moving up the board. Yep, now my rhinos are 12" closer, and next turn you have to deal with the predator again. I love when people shoot my predators, the odds are ridiculously low and my boys get to move up. Congratulations, you just stunned yourself by wasting a turn of shooting.

Blackmoor wrote:In my experience, the orks will charge toward you whether you want them to or not. I could go into details of how you can use flamers on horde armies, but this is not tactics. If you are not a good enough player to figure it out, I can't help you.

That's nice, trying to insult people with a completely irrelevant point. Except you left the part out where we dont need anti horde from our heavies, or the fact that any ork player that knows anything knows he outranges your S&P oblits, or the fact that you have no lascannon targets left probably means youve already won. Ignoring all that, maybe youll kill a few 6 point boyz, but that Nob is going to eat your entire unit of 75 point oblits. I guess theyre great suicide runners? Oh wait, preds get hit on 6+, so they still have a better chance of distracting and surviving....

willydstyle wrote:If you're moving, on a good day, 6" in the movement phase, you will either be:

Out of range for flamers

-or-

Assaulted by the enemy.

The situations where an infantry-speed model gets to use flamers are rare against good players.

That is not true. Since your Oblits will be in the back of your army, you should have a screen of CSM in front of them. So when the horde of Orks or Tyranids come crashing into your lines, and wipe out the CSM then you can just step forward and flame them.

You can also do the same with a rhino. Use it as bait and have it just ahead of the Oblits so that the rhino is in charge range, but the oblits are not. Then what most horde armies want to do is to get to you as fast as possible so when they get the chance to get an extra 6" movement from assaulting they will move forward, and clump up. Then on your turn you either drive the rhino away and flame them, or you crawl over the wreckage to do the same.

Blackmoor wrote:You can say that they have no stamina, but can you prove it?

Nope, didn't say that. I said:

Nurglitch wrote:The draw-back to Obliterators is their cost and stamina: they cost a bundle, and die relatively easily.

In last year's 'Ard Boyz, my first round was against a horde Ork player. I deep struck an Oblit squad on turn 3 and they alone killed 25 Orks out of a mob after some tank shocking with their TL flamers.

The Predator would have been pretty much worthless. "Woo, I plinked another 2 Boyz!".

My last round was against Lysander/Calgar Terminator spam. After Termicide cracked the raiders, my Oblits ravaged Lashed AssTerm squads with plasmacannon fire.

Again, the Predator would have been pretty much worthless. "Woo, I put a wound on Lysander!".

Whenever one of these Obliterator vs X comparison threads come up, it's like we assume that X is played by some sooper genius while Oblits are flung ham-fistedly straight into the first power fist you can find.

You have to be a good player to get the most use out of Oblits. As a unit, they have about the same average yield as other heavy support choices, but much higher maximum potential due to their versatility.

Night Lords wrote:
Are you kidding me? Please tell me youre kidding...? Most Nid shooting is S6. Tyranid shooting is exceptionally bad against armour, let alone AV13 which everyone struggles with. They have two main options - Hive Guard, which shoot Strength 8 shots 24" (~3% chance to destroy predator, ~9% chance to kill oblit [assuming theyre not ap2 which I dont think they are]), and Zoans which annihilate both, but have to be pretty close. If Zoans are going to suicide behind me and blow up a predator, that's perfectly fine.

I was talking about Nid anti-tank. Hive Guard, Venom Cannons, Trynnofexs. All able to kill Preds at range, and are useless against Oblits.
Now you are making me do math: 3 Hive Guard at 150 points will shoot 6 shots. They will have a 132% to do some kind of damage to a Pred, with a 22% chance to kill it, and a 55% chance to stun it. Against oblits they will hit 4 times, they will wound 3.3 times and have will do .55 unsaved wounds to the oblits so yes, they might kill an oblit.

-Cant move and shoot, as opposed to moving 3-4 inches with oblits? Fantastic. My Predator barely moves at all, and when it does it can move 12", tank shocking or claiming objectives. Ill take those pros over moving an few inches a turn, especially since it can turn and shoot for free.

Armies are constantly moving, and you have to more to be able to counter them. A pred is a static pillbox that can out maneuvered. You see it in the games, but you can’t explain it in a post. And if you are tank shocking you are close enough to eat a melta gun.

-Weak Side/Rear Armor. If youre getting hit on rear armour, there is seriously something wrong. As for side, only outflankers (atleast turn 2+) completely dedicated to dispatching of my predator are going to get side armour...provided they get the right side, have range, no terrain in the way (love hugging those buildings). And even then, by then the predator has already made its points back.

I will wager that any Eldar player can get side shots on you before you make your points back.
Also let me introduce you to every Tyranid players new friend…Mr. Trygon. He will pop up where he wants to and hit you with a whole lot of strength 6 shots to your rear or sides. See, and you thought tyranid strength 6 shooting couldn’t hurt you!

-Can be stunned! My absolute favourite point to counter in all W40k discussions. Seriously, Im loving the anticipation here. Guess what? Did you know that the odds of a Lascannon (Strg 9, let alone Strg 8 which IK's Oblits) stunning a predator are lower than the odds of that same lascannon killing an oblit? It's more like thank you, he's only stunned instead of dead!

I refer you to what I said earlier, and oblit can hide and then move out to shoot. A pred can’t. You can keep it stunned until you kill it. If you get a shot through to an oblit, sure you might drop one (if you are lucky enough to get thought the cover or Inv save) but the oblits that are left will still shoot.

Plus, did you know that stunning a Chaos Predator is actually good for a Chaos player? If you had something that was actually able to hit AV13, you just wasted it on a 130 point predator instead of the squads of rhinos moving up the board. Yep, now my rhinos are 12" closer, and next turn you have to deal with the predator again. I love when people shoot my predators, the odds are ridiculously low and my boys get to move up. Congratulations, you just stunned yourself by wasting a turn of shooting.

I disagree. Most armies have a lot of combined weapons, and although your preds will be getting hit with the big stuff, there should be plenty of strength 6/7/8 for your rhinos.

That's nice, trying to insult people with a completely irrelevant point. Except you left the part out where we dont need anti horde from our heavies, or the fact that any ork player that knows anything knows he outranges your S&P oblits, or the fact that you have no lascannon targets left probably means youve already won. Ignoring all that, maybe youll kill a few 6 point boyz, but that Nob is going to eat your entire unit of 75 point oblits. I guess theyre great suicide runners? Oh wait, preds get hit on 6+, so they still have a better chance of distracting and surviving....

I guess what you are saying is that it is easy to beat 180 Ork Boyz backed up by lootas since you are saying that if you are out of targets for lascannons you have already won. Our experiences must be different then, because I still find them quite formidable.

What I was saying is that it is good to have many tools available to use. If your pred is right next to a pile of orks there is nothing that it can really do, where an oblit can use its flamer.

The other day I had a terminator squad right next to a land raider. I was kicking myself for not having a chainfist. This is not a feeling you will have with oblits because whatever shooting weapon will do the most damage, you can have.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Nurglitch wrote:

Blackmoor wrote:You can say that they have no stamina, but can you prove it?

Nope, didn't say that. I said:

Nurglitch wrote:The draw-back to Obliterators is their cost and stamina: they cost a bundle, and die relatively easily.

There is not doubt that they are costly, but you get a lot of bang for your buck.

Looking for an army that can kill 6 obilts I turned to the army list form.

Here are the first 5 armies in the army list forum on 1/31/2010 5:38 CST.

Army #1
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/273902.page
1850 Points of Salamanders
Here is the weapons that can kill Oblits with ease:
2 Melta Guns
2 Multi-Meltas
Predator - Autocannon w/ Lascannon sponsons
Vindicator
You think that has a good chance at killing Oblits? He has one thing that can kill Oblits at 24”+, and the oblits will kill that without working up a sweat. One Multi-melta is on a land speeder and anything in my army can kill that without a problem. Then what? He is screwed while my Oblits rain death upon them.

Army #2
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/276757.page
1500 Point bike army
2 Melta Guns
3 landspeeder typhoons w/ mulitameltas anti Infantry. tank outflank

You think that is going to kill some oblits?

Army #3
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/276656.page
1850 Points of Ultramarines
He does have 3 Lascannons, but he has them in Drop pods. So he will either drop them where they will get the crap shot out of them before they can shoot, or he will combat squad them and have 5 man lascannon squads running around which are static, and I should be able to out maneuver and kill.

Army #4
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/272205.page
1750 Points of CSM
4 Melta guns.

Army #5
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/276312.page
Dash of Pepper’s 1850 Points of Orks
Do powerklaws count?

I searched though my Batreps for tournament games with and without Oblits to see how they did for practical experience on the tabletop. With all of my tournament games, I only found 1 where they use oblits with the latest codex.

Here I am last year playing in the Adepticon Invational
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/236438.page
I took Thousand Sons without Oblits and I went 0-2-1 (My worse W/L record at a tournament). I did tie Greg Sparks who was using 6 oblits but he should have won but he used the wrong weapon on my deep striking Terminators (He used TL plasma guns instead of plasma cannons) and that kept me in the game. Do you know how many Obits he had at the end of the game? All 6 were left. Also do you know what army won the invitational? That is right, an army with 9 oblits. (The invitational was for people who scored in the top 10% in battle points in a GT were invited to play)


So I refute your claim that they have no stamina.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I am done with this topic. Those who like oblits, like them, and those that don't like oblits, don't.

No amount of arguing will change peoples minds.

Blackmoor wrote:
-I was talking about Nid anti-tank. Hive Guard, Venom Cannons, Trynnofexs. All able to kill Preds at range, and are useless against Oblits.
Now you are making me do math: 3 Hive Guard at 150 points will shoot 6 shots. They will have a 132% to do some kind of damage to a Pred, with a 22% chance to kill it, and a 55% chance to stun it. Against oblits they will hit 4 times, they will wound 3.3 times and have will do .55 unsaved wounds to the oblits so yes, they might kill an oblit.

-Armies are constantly moving, and you have to more to be able to counter them. A pred is a static pillbox that can out maneuvered. You see it in the games, but you can’t explain it in a post. And if you are tank shocking you are close enough to eat a melta gun.

-I will wager that any Eldar player can get side shots on you before you make your points back.
Also let me introduce you to every Tyranid players new friend…Mr. Trygon. He will pop up where he wants to and hit you with a whole lot of strength 6 shots to your rear or sides. See, and you thought tyranid strength 6 shooting couldn’t hurt you!

-I refer you to what I said earlier, and oblit can hide and then move out to shoot. A pred can’t. You can keep it stunned until you kill it. If you get a shot through to an oblit, sure you might drop one (if you are lucky enough to get thought the cover or Inv save) but the oblits that are left will still shoot.

-I disagree. Most armies have a lot of combined weapons, and although your preds will be getting hit with the big stuff, there should be plenty of strength 6/7/8 for your rhinos.

-I guess what you are saying is that it is easy to beat 180 Ork Boyz backed up by lootas since you are saying that if you are out of targets for lascannons you have already won. Our experiences must be different then, because I still find them quite formidable.

-What I was saying is that it is good to have many tools available to use. If your pred is right next to a pile of orks there is nothing that it can really do, where an oblit can use its flamer.

-Hive Guard, as discussed, are just going to stun the pred. An eye for an eye. Waste of shooting for them. Venom Cannons are lascannons but worse. Did we not talk about the horrible odds for lascannons already? A BS3 VC...lets say 50% chance to scatter. 0.5 -> ~0.16 pen -> 0.0264 destroyed pred. On Oblits: 0.5 -> 0.42 ->0.0672 x 3 oblits -> 0.2016 dead oblits. What was that again? T-Fex -> 0.5 - 0.25 pen - 0.08 to destroy x 2 shots = 0.16 chance. 250 points for a 16% chance to destroy. Theres other results in this, but the fact is, it just doesnt take them out of the game unlike oblits (squish).

-I play on terrain heavy boards, and even then, with True Line of Sight (which i think is horrible, but thats a different topic) they can see almost everything, making moving a rare occurrence. Im honestly trying to think of a situation where something is completely hidden from a pred, that is a threat, but cant be destroyed by something else in my army, or why my army would move into a trap like that, or how an oblit will somehow magically see it by moving 4".

-I play Eldar the most actually, and theyre partly the reason for my switch. I get far more shots off with much better odds (because of S8 max). Oblits have absolutely no advantage in this matchup, other than suiciding by deepstriking in behind (and the odds of that...foolish). Ive played the 4++ fire dragon wave serpent game, dont you worry.

As for the trygon, assuming he lands where he wants...lets be generous and say 50%. 3 hits, .5 pens, 0.1584 destroyed * 0.5 = 0.075 chance to destroy. It doesnt matter because the next turn both oblits and preds are fudged, but yea, odds are not so great.

-A pred being stunned all game is unlikely without heavy dedicated shooting. I guess this hypothetical player will play against the odds all game by shooting preds with high strg, and shooting rhinos with mid strg? I guess that makes sense (that's sarcasm)...and unless its guard (which is a completely lopsided matchup for chaos regardless of oblits/preds,), there isnt going to be enough shooting to take down an entire army heading their way with those odds.

-I love the extreme example with 180 boyz, negating the fact that I said "most likely", let me give you a . Whats funny though is that with preds, youre going to get more shots off on those lootas than you would with oblits. But dont worry, oblits have flamers!

-If my pred is next to a pile of orks, I would hope theyre in CC or I seriously Fd up elsewhere. I can also simply...drive away, leaving the orks in my dust. But that would require using an advantage of the pred, we cant have that!

Blackmoor:

Yeah, and I think those lists suck. What's your point? That Obliterators are great when they face lists and players unprepared to silence them? Maybe if you actually tried arguing in a cogent fashion you would actually make a constructive argument that moves the thread forwards rather than simply erecting a series of pointless straw-men.

Blackmoor said:

"I am done with this topic. Those who like oblits, like them, and those that don't like oblits, don't.

No amount of arguing will change peoples minds. "

Here is the problem. No one is saying that Oblits are a bad unit. What myself and others are arguing is that you dont need them to be competitive (or in other words, youre not hindering your chances of winning by not taking them). Both units have their advantages. Preds are better in terms of sheer firepower, Oblits are versatile. The question is whether the versatility is worth dropping the firepower for. In my opinion, no.

I'm actually arguing that Chaos isn't competitive, but that there are other options for the HS slot that art as good or better than oblits situationally.

No, they are not required. Termicide is poop in my book. Obliterators are absolutely insane though. There is no better choice.
Vindicators are also really good though, for how cheap you can get 3.

willydstyle wrote:I'm actually arguing that Chaos isn't competitive, but that there are other options for the HS slot that art as good or better than oblits situationally.

If Chaos isn't competitive, then what does that make vanillia SM?

Vanilla SM is highly competitive. They have more list options, more efficient units, and the capability to destroy transports easily from range in the FA and Troops slots that Chaos just doesn't possess.

Chaos can mimic competitive lists, but can't be truly competitive.

@willydstyle:
Heh, we are back to that line. That was pretty quick

willydstyle wrote:Vanilla SM is highly competitive. They have more list options, more efficient units, and the capability to destroy transports easily from range in the FA and Troops slots that Chaos just doesn't possess.

It's a good thing they have oblits to make up for it!

Chaos can mimic competitive lists, but can't be truly competitive.

Chaos can be very competitive, even without lash...as long as you bring some oblits.

I'll take MM attack bikes over oblits any day of the week.

Edit: also, I don't think that Lash is a particularly competitive power. It's awesome against scrubs, and it helps players who can't judge ranges and movement speeds well, but I don't think it really helps a good general beat other good generals to a significant degree.

Concur. Lash is one of the most overrated abilities in the game, especially against mech.

I'll third that the Lash of Submission is popularly over-rated, but then I'd say the same about Obliterators: they're both good for scrubs but the utility depends on your opponents not having a plan for them.

Lash and oblits are a very effective army list. The problem is that a lot of people who play them arent good, its a netlist.

I grappled the shoggoth wrote:Lash and oblits are a very effective army list. The problem is that a lot of people who play them arent good, its a netlist.

I'm a pretty good player. I win a large majority of my games, against good players with good lists, including in tournament play (though I admit I have not participated in a GT level event yet).

Every time I bring Lash against another good player with a competent list (one with a good mix of speed, range, mechanization, and killing power) I find myself wishing that I'd used the points and HQ slot for a different unit.

When I bring Lash against a scrub, it just helps me beat a bad player even worse than I would have anyways.

I have found that running my OBLITZ in one three man cult works well and then I use other heavy in conjunction with it. IE, a lascannon decked predator and a couple land raiders.

If you run a termy squad in one of the land raiders, you can get one of them in your list as a dedicated transport; which seems to work relatively well.

I get the most out of lascannons and the one 3-man OBLIT cult makes up for the diference with their versatility.


That being said I think the OBLITZ make a good heavy support but I don't use them exclusively, more as a compliment to tanks.

What the problem might be is how people run their CSM armies.

What I seem to see here is that those that run CSM as an assault army don't need Oblits.

I run my CSM more as a shooting army and I need Oblits to help out, and it is possible that others who run them as a shooty army feel the same way.

The first time I played my friend's White Scars with my Black Legion he said "I didn't realize how shooty your army was."

So I think I run a fairly shooty Chaos army, and I don't feel I particularly need Oblits for it to run well.

I'd have to echo willydstyle: I run a shooty Chaos army and I don't feel that Obliterators have a place in it if I wanted to play competitively (although they certainly do have a place in other armies).

Blackmoor wrote:What the problem might be is how people run their CSM armies.

What I seem to see here is that those that run CSM as an assault army don't need Oblits.

I run my CSM more as a shooting army and I need Oblits to help out, and it is possible that others who run them as a shooty army feel the same way.

Well, the entire point of the topic is whether Oblits are essential. As in, you take them or lose to any decent player.

Oblits are great, I used them for a long time. Theyre the obvious choice in a lash list (which I dont like too much, but others do).

However, not everyone plays the cookie cutter list. What I need in my army is reliable long range shooting (more shots = better odds, which havocs and preds provide). My large amount of CSM & friends (which include 2 dreadnoughts - another unit I never saw myself even considering) moving up the field can take out any APC contents. I like Preds because they are a reliable, sturdy firebase that is pointless for my opponent to shoot at. I honestly dont remember the last time a predator was destroyed (or even stunned), as the outflankers/deepstrikers have better odds with the more important threat moving up the field, and the opponent's I play against know that. I have had to reposition them a few times, meaning I would only shoot one lascannon, but those are rare instances. Otherwise Im shooting 4 high strength shots a turn with each.

It's all about army synergy and how the units perform with one another. Yes, looking at our units one by one in isolation, the Oblits DO look good and like the obvious option. Plague Marines also look like an obvious option. Dreads look terrible. Yet I dont use either of the first two but I use the dread. Why? Because it adds to army synergy. Dreads simply cannot be ignored by your opponent. Even with their problems, they simply have to shoot at them. This is something my army needs to help ensure reaching the opponents lines.

So no, preds are not the best option in every list. No, havocs arnt either. However, the same can be said about Oblits, theyre not necessarily the best. They have their flaws, and other units have clear advantages. Oblits are extremely forgiving due to their versatility, but with a little thought all those negative points about the pred can be dealt with.

I have to agree with Night Lords: the value of a unit reall does depend on your strategy (your army list and how you plan to use it) as well as how good the unit looks on paper. Moreover there really are no no-brainer units in Codex: Chaos Space Marines, although some units have a narrower strategic range (will fit into fewer strategies) than others, and thus their utility will seem less obvious to people who aren't willing or able to puzzle it out.

I just threw that out there because I can't understand why some people think they are not necessary.

So do you understand now why some people don't think Obliterators are necessary?

This argument is the dumbest on dakka.

Over in eldar land we have the occasional fire prism vs war walker debate. It generally comes down to what do you want to use.

You know whats essential to a 'good list'?
1 hq and 2 troop choices, thats it. Build the rest however the hell you want.
if 2xlash princes, 4xplague marines and 9 oblits do it for you go for it.

if 2 khorne lords, 4 zerker squads, and 3 vindicators win you games use it.

I grappled the shoggoth wrote:This argument is the dumbest on dakka.

Over in eldar land we have the occasional fire prism vs war walker debate. It generally comes down to what do you want to use.

You know whats essential to a 'good list'?
1 hq and 2 troop choices, thats it. Build the rest however the hell you want.
if 2xlash princes, 4xplague marines and 9 oblits do it for you go for it.

if 2 khorne lords, 4 zerker squads, and 3 vindicators win you games use it.

Now I know whose opinion not to pay any attention to.