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I'm sure people will have strong feelings one way or another but I'm going to come right out and say
"No, I don't think so".

I think the key to success with Chaos Marines lies in the troops. Termicide and Oblits are good support units but they're just that, support.

Considering that more and more people are switching to all Mech armies battles are becoming more and more fast and close range. Oblits are good for standing there and shooting, and termicide is used for those IG Basilisks hiding in the back. But most people will be more likely to destroy them with a melta gun now then with a lascannon. A unit of Chosen is more reliable, and they only outflank where you want them to 66% of the time, twice as much as a unit of termies is likely to land where you want them to!

CSM have the most diverse selection for their troops choice. Nearly all of them is packing the greatest standard equipment, and are the best people for their role!

Zerkers - they make ork mobs cry with how many dice they roll!

Noisy Rockers - Can pump out some of the most amount of fire at 24" than any other unit in the game.

Pus Balls - One of thee most durable units in the game.

Vanilla - Can be kited out for what ever role they need to be, thanks to Icons.

A CSM general has, at his disposal, troop units who have boosts to an already awesome stat line, what more could you want? Lash...of course, and sure why not some Plasma Cannons...but 10 zerkers, and plague marines, AND noise marines will win you the game anyway, so the rest is just fluff.

I'd disagree. Termicide is useful in a one-dimensional sort of way, but there's so many other things in the Elite slots that are more useful, particularly a well-equipped Terminator squad!

The Obliterators are nice, but they're too easily quashed by anti-tank weapons and outflanking units, as well as being premium-priced. I'd take them if I was planning on a large drop with lots of Terminators and Lesser Daemons, but otherwise Havocs are a better choice. Incidentally they also make a nice body-guard unit for Typhus and Abbadon.

Nurglitch wrote:I'd disagree. Termicide is useful in a one-dimensional sort of way, but there's so many other things in the Elite slots that are more useful, particularly a well-equipped Terminator squad!

What is your preferred Terminator squad loadout?

Four Chaos Terminators w/four Powerfists, one Chainfist, four Twin-Linked Bolters, and one Reaper Autocannon, Icon of Chaos Glory
One Chaos Terminator Champion w/Power Weapon, Twin-Linked Bolter.

I have my anti-vehicle in Havocs and Land Raiders, so by the time the Terminators land I want something to shoot up units that have either been dismounted, or that would be resistant to Lascannons, Autocannons, and Missile Launchers. Anti-tank is work for Chosen squads who also act as forward spotters for the Terminator squad. I really do prefer a squad of Melta-wielding Chosen since they can continue shooting the Meltas after the first turn: Combi-Meltas have frustrated the heck out of me when they miss and I'm left without anti-tank.

Don't get me wrong, the Termicide units can kill a tank when they land, but that'll be T2+, and they won't get a second shot. I want to start knocking over tanks and vehicles on T1. They just don't fit with the strategy I currently prefer.

I used to think Oblits may have been a necessary evil, because they are the only reliable unit in the codex to pack Plasma Cannons and/or Multi-Meltas, but I've seen this is untrue. For example, Raptors have the same effective melta radius as Deepstriking Obliterators. I'd also say most people interpret the Dreadnoughts Fire Frenzy rule incorrectly: RAW, he basically picks targets infront of him.

DarkHound wrote:I used to think Oblits may have been a necessary evil, because they are the only reliable unit in the codex to pack Plasma Cannons and/or Multi-Meltas, but I've seen this is untrue.

It seems like the next question to ask then is, "how important are Multi-Meltas or Plasma Cannons?"

How important is it to take down Landraiders, then the Terminators inside?

DarkHound wrote:How important is it to take down Landraiders, then the Terminators inside?

Well said. I guess I was thinking more do you need Multi-Melta/Plasma Cannon or can you get by with Meltaguns/Plasmaguns instead?

Unlike Codex Marines we don't have alot of units with the Heavies but we can more then make up for that in the special weapon category.

Yup. Take a unit of Termicide, 105 points for three Melta Shots. You can take a unit of five Chosen with three actual Melta Guns for the same price.

Or take a unit of two Obliterators. You can take a unit of five Havocs with four Melta Guns and a Rhino for the same price. Same likelihood of causing a Melta hit, greater potential number of Melta hits, more mobility and protection, more effective in an assault, and you can make them out of stock Chaos Space Marines. Of course you're trading off Sv2+, Powerfists, Fearless, Deep Strike, Iv5+, and Obliterator weapons, but that's the game, choosing a particular batch of trade-offs.

I don't think they're required to make a good competitive list, they're just good units at popping the one thing everyone hates; high armor targets. I like obliterators for their versatility, even if they do die easily most of the time. They're effective, reliable, and they have a pletora of weapons to choose from. That being said, I do agree with the assessment that Chosen are damn good for the same role, and they are more survivable (tin can ftw). Plus in CC they will probably kill something before they die. Termicide is effective, but I think its not entirely reliable in all games. A poor scatter can lose you the unit, and even with an icon, it might not put you close enough, or in the arc you want (like side/back for battlewagons).

I think you can make a perfectly viable list without either. I tend to agree that the power of the chaos legions is in their troop choices and the versatility of their basic units. Most of the bigger tourney lists don't use much more than some HQ's, lots of troops, and some heavies. I'm a big fan of defilers and vindicators personally, one shoting full squads of termis with a vindi never ceases to bring a smile to my face

Zid wrote:Most of the bigger tourney lists don't use much more than some HQ's, lots of troops, and some heavies. I'm a big fan of defilers and vindicators personally, one shoting full squads of termis with a vindi never ceases to bring a smile to my face

Yeah thats basically my current 1.5k list right now.
What I'm running into is where to spend the points to bump it up to 2k. I already have 5 CSM squads and 2 Defilers. Sure I could make it 6/3 but I'm tempted to run with something different instead. Hence my looking into Possessed, Lesser Daemons or non-Termicide Terminators.

Chaos can't make a competitive list. They can pretend to make a competitive list, but that's not the same.

For my Chaos army I'm going to try having my HS as follows:

3x predator, AC turret, Lascannon Sponsons, Havoc Missile Launcher.

I think each pred comes out to 145, which is less than two obliterators, but for anti-vehicle can fire two lascannons, plus an autocannon, and for anti infantry the havoc can put down a good number of wounds, in addition to 4 high-str shots from the main guns.

It doesn't have some of the other options that are nice from obliterators (twin-linked plasma guns, multi-meltas, plasma cannons) but I think it is more durable, and almost as versatile.

@OP:
Chaos doesn't 'need' oblits/termicides to be competitive.
It's only that there is a lack of juicy alternative options that make them show up so much.

In addition, oblits fit alot of playstyles by virtue of their swiss army knife background.
----------------------

@Nurglitch:
Lawl, basically you have Spiky Smurf terminator wanna-bes.
Not saying it's bad, but not very 'chaosy' to me.

Nurglitch wrote:
The Obliterators are nice, but they're too easily quashed by anti-tank weapons and outflanking units, as well as being premium-priced. I'd take them if I was planning on a large drop with lots of Terminators and Lesser Daemons, but otherwise Havocs are a better choice. Incidentally they also make a nice body-guard unit for Typhus and Abbadon.

I have always played with obliterators in my HS slot and they have always been my MVP. MM and TL PG is just win with the meta game right now. Obliterators have much more versatility than havocs and they are more resilient too.
@Willydstyle
I will never take a predator over a squad of 2 obliterators. Obliterators can hide predators cant. Obliterators can DS predators cant. Obliterators can move and fire their weapons. Obliterators will be in cover when shot at predator is harder to hide. On paper predators might look like the better but after playing you will see they arent.
@OP
I entered an escalation tournament last sunday and placed 3rd. The two other CSm players did not use obliterators but I used two units of 3 obliterators. One player used three squads of havocs with four lascannons each.

Termicide hate them horrible idea dont understand why people take them 105 points for 3 melta or 6 plasmagun(i like plasma better) shots isnt worth it. Reserve rolls are not consistent and that what wins tournaments. Id convert the three terminators into obliterators! I have 20 terminators and they are my benchwarmers. Going to convert 3 so i can finaly field 9 and bench my vindicator

Only exception with obliterators is point games. They are expensive and they really shine in a large unit so in smaller size games they arent very competitive.

Sanctjud:

Yeah, they were originally designed to be able to dual-use with Codex: Space Marines, so I kind of lucked out there, but there's something to be said for making an abitrary aesthetic choice and then figuring out how to make it work (in my case what made it work was replacing the Heavy Flamer with the Reaper Autocannon).

Obliterators are pretty good, but hugely vulnerable to lascannons and melta. I've never had a huge problem dealing with them. Havocs are much harder to kill, at least if you deploy correctly.

If you are making a shooting chaos army, Oblits are a must have. The ability to shoot many weapons is needed. I also never deep strike my oblits.

Terminators you can take or leave. I mostly get them so I can take a land raider in the elite slot.

I like termicides but hate oblits. Termicides are good for the reason that your opponent knows they will pop on the board but dont know when so usually spread their forces a little thinner in certain areas so they have room to kill them when needed which allows for easier shots at certain threats for me with longer range weaponry.
Oblits for me seem overused and underwhelming in most games i play maybe that has something to do with the way i deploy them but i also roll horribly for them half the time. I also dont like how easily they are killed i think if they were cheaper they might be a more viable option for me. I think the 2wounds on them is unnecessary as i ran into alot of people hitting me with lascannons or outflanking them with a hidden fist and killing them with ease anyway.

Its interesting that we've run the whole field of potential options.
+Oblits/+Termicide
+Oblits/-Termicide
-Oblits/+Termicide
-Oblits/-Termicide

I'd really like to see peoples' idea of Competitive Chaos without the layers of anti-mech that Oblits/Termicide offer.

sourclams wrote:I'd really like to see peoples' idea of Competitive Chaos without the layers of anti-mech that Oblits/Termicide offer.

My current attempt is basically CSM spamming with support. Put as many Rhino squads as you can on the board and back them up with some cheap(ish) heavies, in my case I like Defilers for the Battlecannon.

My 2000?

DP, wings.
DP, wings.
10 PM, 2meltas, Fist, PIcon, Rhino.
10 PM, 2meltas, Fist, PIcon, Rhino.
10 PM, 2flamers, Fist, PIcon, Rhino.
20 Lesser Daemons
3 Oblits
3 Oblits

Though I don't use them as much as I used to after I moved onto my next army.
Oblits are MVP's in my experience, and that's without lash.

No offense intended, but I shudder at your model count. The Lesser Daemons offer a lot of padding, but it's a 50/50 of getting them on turn 2 "Too Far".

It's rather a moot point though since you've got Oblits in there.

I agree, oblits are just to good to pass up with the abundance of mech.

Well, with a first turn move of 12", the foot print of the unit should reach 3" into the enemy deployment zone on turn 2.

I've never had a problem...

People focus on lessers means more plague marines to punish the opponent.
People focus on the PM's means more lessers to lock stuff down.
It's been a decent match.
I had doubts before hand mixing these two units which are at the extremes of the durability scale...but it's been a wild ride.

Sanctjud wrote:
3 Oblits
3 Oblits

Any reason you run 2x3 instead of 3x2?

Yes my view is skewed a little...I used to use at least 3 of them in every game. I used the cheesy Slaan DP, PM, and Oblits from the day I got the codex, but it got REALLY old REALLY fast. And sure no one could beat it then, idk if they can now, it was just so boring. So as far as Oblits being needed in competitive lists, my answer is still no.

Yes they offer alot of options from anti tank to great anti heavy infantry. To me they offer good fire power, and a great way to soak up your opponents anti tank fire for a turn or 2. But for me they never performed as well as i want them to. I still feel that its really all about your style and your tactics. But I still don't think they are NEEDED, simply the best and most feared unit for their job.

rlsquared2 wrote:

-Obliterators have much more versatility than havocs and they are more resilient too.

-I will never take a predator over a squad of 2 obliterators. Obliterators can hide predators cant. Obliterators can DS predators cant. Obliterators can move and fire their weapons. Obliterators will be in cover when shot at predator is harder to hide. On paper predators might look like the better but after playing you will see they arent.

-I entered an escalation tournament last sunday and placed 3rd. The two other CSm players did not use obliterators but I used two units of 3 obliterators. One player used three squads of havocs with four lascannons each.

-Havocs are better at their assigned job (ex light transports) for far cheaper. Theyre also much more resilient than obliterators. Anything shooting them at a range is going to smash the oblits, but only kill one 15 point marine.

-Predators dont need to hide from long range fire. They can take the abuse with AV13.

If youre going to list advantages, list both. Preds are cheaper. They get far more shots. Theyre far harder to destroy than oblits (lascannon: Oblits ~40%, Pred 7%). They can also move faster. I just won a game because my predator can move 12" and contested my home objective while I had my opponent's.

Both have advantages, but Oblits certainly are not flat out better than them (I would easily take a pred over an oblit).

-4 lascannon havocs (any lascannon havocs) are a bad choice.

I'm still going with yes. IMO Obliterators have much better flexibility and survivability in 5th Ed. than Predators and Havocs. There is usually plenty of cover and they lose nothing in the way of firepower when moving every turn.

I used to field 2x3 but have settled down to 2x2 so I can field more Troops. May be going back to 2x3 or add Termicide because I am feeling that loss of anti-tank already.

- Blackbone