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Kilkrazy wrote:Wow! Blatant sex discrimination case right there. I suppose the law is different in the USA.

Eh, frankly I don't feel like taking it to court. With the hysteria in this country I really don't want to deal with people looking at me and asking me, "So just why does a 29 year old man want to be around little children so much anyways?"

Seriously, I love kids. They're fun, honest, and don't give you the BS adults do. However today between a really distorted view of what is "manly," and the general pedo-mania of the country any man who doesn't instantly want to beat a child to death for looking at him is instantly a pedophile.

BluntmanDC wrote:

Relapse wrote:@Bluntman,

Something interesting I've learned about Pedos is that children exposed to violence in the home are more likely to become Pedo than those exposed to porn.
That being said, the "outlet" for Pedos on the internet is created by someone victimizing children for another's voyouristic pleasure.

I never said it was a good thing, I was saying that the number of pedophiles is probably the same as it was 20 years ago, or 50 years ago, when no one thought you shouldn't let you children walk to school cos the thousands of pedos that live near the school will kidnap them. I was saying that the pedo headline is being used by the media to create fear so they can sell more papers. the actual number of pedos is very very small, the media want you to believe otherwise

Indeedy-doo. Actual cases of abuse, in terms of statistics (horribly cold way to look at things, but ultimately needed) there are no more Paedos 'per head' in the UK than at any other point. Yes, they are seemingly better organised thanks to the Interwebs facilitating their unpleasent desires, but guess what Daily Mail! IT ALSO MAKES THEM EASIER TO PROSECUTE, AND WHEN A RING IS FOUND IT'S TYPICALLY HUNDREDS OF THE PERVERTS GETTING BANGED UP GLOBALLY.

No need to panic.

mattyrm wrote:Seb, im not ignorant with the facts regarding Buddhism, notice i didnt say that it WAS peaceful, i said it had a better track record. I certainly didnt and dont think that Buddhism has a better track record than "any other" religion.

It doesn’t have a better track record. Where Buddhism has been the majority religion, its acted as majorities act. Where Buddhism has been the religion of an oppressed minority, it’s acted as oppressed minorities act.

I dont think any Religion is blameless when it comes to people behaving irrationally as a mob

I personally think people are to blame for doing the things they do. Religion can be used to rationalise horrible acts but it’s rarely the real driving cause.

but i have to strongly disagree with your statement that we have a fixation with terrorist violence being a result of religious teaching and not because of social and economic factors.

I think a lot of people have bought into this myth of two great cultures clashing but it’s bollocks. Instead, you have a politically stable, rich and powerful Western world, and a (mostly) poor, politically unstable Islamic world.

Saying that it is NOT a result of Religious teachings and is simply down to social and economic factors is flat out wrong.

I am not saying that terrorism is a purely poor thing. I don’t know why you assumed I was. Most terrorists have middle class backgrounds. The driving issue is the inequality between the groups as a whole.

How many poor secularists wage a constant aggressive war against the other "side" like Religious nuts do?

Umm, lots? You’ve never heard of the terrorist campaigns of any anarchist groups? Because they killed Czar Alexander II, Archduke Franz Ferdinand (leading to WWI), President McKinley and they bombed Wall Street. They killed dozens of other royals over the course of the twentieth century and would have killed many more if they weren’t mostly incompetent. Do you want me to go through the terrorist campaigns from communists, or the countless non-religious independence movements that have embraced terrorism?

You dont get scummy council estate well fare kids of no real religious persuasion (like your average special brew swigging chav over here) waging a militant campaign against Toffs or Jews or whatever other group that might have somehow earned their ire. They just seem to act generally gak, but they dont wage a targetted campaign against a certain group.

Also, someone like that would never kill themselves in the process, except perhaps in an extremely rare case, maybe involving depression or something.

What are you talking about? Is your world view entirely informed by a dislike of muslims and chavs?

The whole point with these Jihaddis is that in a strange way, they are not bad people. They passionately believe due to a sustained brainwashing campaign that "God" wants them to kill people, so they dont see themselves as the bad guys. God wants me to fly this plane into a building, so i am not doing anything wrong, and i will be richly rewarded with it.

Hardly anyone thinks they’re bad. Circumstance and poor decision making leads people to worldviews full of hate, and that can justify violence. The point is that the circumstance causing this is ‘the state of the Muslim world’ not ‘the Muslim faith’.

There are so many things wrong with your statment i dont even want to get into it as i will be here all night, but i cannot allow you to claim that the only reason this is happening is because they are poor and not because they are being systematically trained to act in a certain way thanks to a well funded and organised RELIGIOUSLY MOTIVATED band of terrorist scumbags.

Obviously the training camps and fanatical mosques are a factor, but the point is that real causes causing the development of those mosques is the inequality in power between the groups.

sebster wrote: Obviously the training camps and fanatical mosques are a factor, but the point is that real causes causing the development of those mosques is the inequality in power between the groups.

Yeah rather than get into a protracted internet debate, lets just diagree eh? It saves time.

The kids in Palestine get raised watching cartoons about "slaying the Jew" and you think the primary reason is inequality?

If they were exactly equal in all ways all we would get is a bigger war. They are raised to hate, and hate they shall, until the day they die, thats what happens when you mindlock children.

It all stems back to Isreal.

Sam thing has happened in Northern Ireland to a lesser degree - part of the ongoing problems there stem from kids being raised to 'hate' the opposing faction.

mattyrm wrote:

sebster wrote: Obviously the training camps and fanatical mosques are a factor, but the point is that real causes causing the development of those mosques is the inequality in power between the groups.

Yeah rather than get into a protracted internet debate, lets just diagree eh? It saves time.

The kids in Palestine get raised watching cartoons about "slaying the Jew" and you think the primary reason is inequality?

If they were exactly equal in all ways all we would get is a bigger war. They are raised to hate, and hate they shall, until the day they die, thats what happens when you mindlock children.

It all stems back to Isreal.

I'd say it's more about the Western backing for Israel, and the way Israel behaves towards it's neighbours. Not a fan of that country. Or indeed the whole middle east.

Why can't the world be more like Amsterdam? No restrictions, no tabboos, no worries. Simple!

mattyrm wrote:Yeah rather than get into a protracted internet debate, lets just diagree eh? It saves time.

The kids in Palestine get raised watching cartoons about "slaying the Jew" and you think the primary reason is inequality?

If they were exactly equal in all ways all we would get is a bigger war. They are raised to hate, and hate they shall, until the day they die, thats what happens when you mindlock children.

It all stems back to Isreal.

You're bringing up Palestine as an example to dismiss inequality? A conflict where almost 5,000 Palestinians have been killed in the last decade (compared to around 700 Israelis). Where Palestine exists in a state of virtual siege, subject to sudden freezes in any goods entering - leaving 4 million people to survive by trafficking supplies underground. Where the primary issue stopping a resolution is Israel's continued settlement of Palestinian land - in direct breach of treaties they've signed.

Palestine is the absolute number one argument for inequality driving the rise in terrorism. I know you said you don't want to get into a debate on the issue, but all I'm talking about is the basic stuff that everyone should be able to agree on. The complicated stuff, what we actually do about the issue, can be debated until the cows come home but to start with everyone has to see the basic situation as it is.

The point is Seb, we are dragging this off topic. My argument is simply that religion is primarily to blame for terrorism, not your economic situation, because it is a unifying force and it can get people that would otherwise be peaceful to carry out horrific acts because they think that God wants it from them.

The Isreali Palestine conflict will always be there, and equality is not the issue. The existence of Isreal in its current state is the issue, its not because Palestine have less military power and money, its simple raised built in hatred, just like the Catholics and Prods in Ireland, its built in bigotry and i dont see what your social economic background has to do with anything. Im sure middle class Jews hate middle class Palestinians, and vice versa!

But as i said, lets get on. I dont have the time to sit here all night.

All i will say is mate, i dont blame all of the worlds ills on Islam, as you seem to be offended by what i have said, i have a well rounded distaste for all religion, and especially the "big 3"

Trouble is, Religion is simply the most common guise to go to war.

Take the aforementioned Israel/Palestine conflict. It's gone on for so long now, much like Northern Ireland, that even if both sides were to grow up and put the guns away and stop being bellends to each other, resentment and bad feelings would continue for generations.

Look at England/Scotland. Been centuries since anything really negative happened between the two, and yet despite the majority being merely harmless banter, there are still very much no-go areas in places like Glasgow for the English. People want an excuse to abuse other human beings. Take one away, and another will be found in short order.

As much as I too share MAttrym's general distaste for Religion, I don't think either of us are daft enough to see Religion as a reason so much as an excuse. To my mind to dislike someone because of their particular religious tastes is about as useful and sense making as disliking somebody because of the colour of their skin. or place of birth. When you break it down, it's utterly ridiculous. 'He said that Granny Smiths are the tastiest Apple, whereas I say it's a Cox's Orange Pippin. For this, HE MUST DIE!'.

Stupid huh, and yet absolutely no different to the arguments of those wishing to use Religion as an excuse.

Well yes this is what im talking about though, yes humans will always like war. And if its not Religion, then its nationality, and well, it goes even further, no doubt if all that was gone, then we would war against the closest town, or whatever.

The overriding point it that we make barriers and demonise people that was see as less like us. But at the end of the day, Religion IS just another barrier, and one that billions of people allow to affect their perceptions of other people.

sebster wrote:You're bringing up Palestine as an example to dismiss inequality? A conflict where almost 5,000 Palestinians have been killed in the last decade (compared to around 700 Israelis). Where Palestine exists in a state of virtual siege, subject to sudden freezes in any goods entering - leaving 4 million people to survive by trafficking supplies underground. Where the primary issue stopping a resolution is Israel's continued settlement of Palestinian land - in direct breach of treaties they've signed.

Palestine is the absolute number one argument for inequality driving the rise in terrorism.

Inequality due to the belief that one religious group has has more right to occupy the land than the other (i.e. Zionism). Just saying.

All it's doing is giving those who'd pick a fight anyway a reason to pick a fight.

As I said, take that reason away, and they'll just find/invent a new one.

mattyrm wrote:The point is Seb, we are dragging this off topic.

I've never understood the idea that a thread should stay on topic. Conversations flow. Who's ever been chatting with friends and stopped after ten minutes and said 'wait up everyone, Jonno's question was about the party last night and now we're talking about the football, we need to go back to talking about the party'.

My argument is simply that religion is primarily to blame for terrorism, not your economic situation, because it is a unifying force and it can get people that would otherwise be peaceful to carry out horrific acts because they think that God wants it from them.

The Isreali Palestine conflict will always be there, and equality is not the issue. The existence of Isreal in its current state is the issue, its not because Palestine have less military power and money, its simple raised built in hatred, just like the Catholics and Prods in Ireland, its built in bigotry

Which was a reasonable idea of the situation in 1970. 40 years on and the world is a very different place - the only serious player in the region with a genuine hate on for Israel is Iran - the rest are either indifferent or forming tentative relations. Egypt actively works with the Israelis to maintain the quarantine on Palestine.

Seriously, do some reading on the state of life in Palestine.

i dont see what your social economic background has to do with anything. Im sure middle class Jews hate middle class Palestinians, and vice versa!

The scarcity of middle class Palestinians is part of the problem. The Palestinians that are middle class look at the overwhelming number of Palestinians, some who've been in refugee camps for decades, and it pisses them off. I don't agree with the terrorism undertaken by many Palestinians, nor do I agree with electing Hamas, but it's basic, human thing to see your tribe living in poverty and be pissed off about it. When it's so blindingly obvious that the policies of tribe over the road is stopping your tribe from ever getting out of poverty, it's sensible to transfer your frustration towards them.

All i will say is mate, i dont blame all of the worlds ills on Islam, as you seem to be offended by what i have said, i have a well rounded distaste for all religion, and especially the "big 3"

I'm not offended, I just think you're wrong


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Take the aforementioned Israel/Palestine conflict. It's gone on for so long now, much like Northern Ireland, that even if both sides were to grow up and put the guns away and stop being bellends to each other, resentment and bad feelings would continue for generations.

There's this idea that the violence is due to a circle of retaliations, and it isn't true. There are real driving issues. I don't think people really understand how poor Palestine is, and how tightly Israel control the borders.

Look at England/Scotland. Been centuries since anything really negative happened between the two, and yet despite the majority being merely harmless banter, there are still very much no-go areas in places like Glasgow for the English. People want an excuse to abuse other human beings. Take one away, and another will be found in short order.

There is a difference between passive tribalism - you don't come around these parts, and strapping a bomb to yourself to go blow up a market place. The latter requires a lot more provocation.

As much as I too share MAttrym's general distaste for Religion, I don't think either of us are daft enough to see Religion as a reason so much as an excuse.

Which is what I'm saying - religion is an excuse. There are real, and often legitimate grievances at the core of these issues.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Albatross wrote:Inequality due to the belief that one religious group has has more right to occupy the land than the other (i.e. Zionism). Just saying.

Ah, well played. I'd argue that taking land is the primary desire and religion just the rationalisation, afterall there's a long history of purely secular land grabs, but I concede religion as a primary motivation for Israeli settlement is a fair argument.