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Note: "Unless they've changed something".

Hellfury wrote:
I understand its not tangibly what you get out of a product to make it enoyable, but $60 for a rule book is steep. Hell, $40 is steep.

I guess I am not hip with the times since my last roleplaying books were from White Wolf and I paid $35 for a thick hardbound copy of Vampire the masquerade. Granted, that was over a decade ago.

You might be on to something there...

Where might we find this picture?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Disregard that, black suits of Arnold armour with a silver arm will be the rage. I wonder if FW will do Terminator sized pads?

BrookM wrote:Where might we find this picture?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Disregard that, black suits of Arnold armour with a silver arm will be the rage. I wonder if FW will do Terminator sized pads?

That would be nice, but until they become part of the 40K game canon and or in some IA supplement, I don't think we'll see them...

Isn't there already a DW Termi pad with the current plastic termis?

As far as 40K DW goes, it used to be tacticals w/ 2 heavy bolters and a Librarian or CPT.
Then C.S. "LAZER" Goto wrote a few books and had DW with just about the entire armory available to them.

This is obviously more along Goto's ideas, which it pains me to admit, is the only way to make this supplement work. Hopefully it'll trickle down to 40K as well.

There is, but I've always assumed that it's just meaning the guy has at some point been in the Deathwatch.

DW are a special forces variant of the common Astartes, so it would be logical for them to have access to a pile of special equipment.

I just don't see them as having Terminator Armour. They've always been described as striking fast and getting out faster, along with the ideas stuck in my head from the anti-grav suspensors for heavy weapons and the like.

But a Deathwatch(wing) army would be kinda cool...

RP'ing them, your probibly going to get the access to about a squad or a teams worth of equipment.

They arn't known for their subtilty, though.

If you can see a couple of players playing survivors, then being picked up by a Rogue trader, then having a couple of Sororitis along for the ride.

then they get dropped off and join up with an inquisition kill team....

As for that silly comment that they are taking over everything, pfft.

It's obvious that you haven't read the rest of these books.

This game is hard core. A space marine is just another meat shield, or some extra firepower compaired to some of the things that this game can throw at you.

It's not the table top guys that you know and love, these guys are essentially RP versions, and they are alot tougher then you might expect.

I wouldn't worry too much about Space marines taking over anything, they're just another player.

Theres a nice little adventure hook about a batch of Grots getting in and infesting your ship. It isn't what you'd expect when the little buggers start tearing stuff up, ripping you off and having the ability to take you down with sheer numbers, then think of the little tid bit that they arn't just armed with a stick.

These little Grots can use weapons, deal serious damage, and are more then a match if you play them out right. Mr Space marine won't be so tough if they get hold of a grenade, or some sort of serious weapon and start shooting holes in the side of the ship.

Theres about a million and one things that are more serious then a Space Marine in this game system.

Kanluwen wrote:I just don't see them as having Terminator Armour. They've always been described as striking fast and getting out faster, along with the ideas stuck in my head from the anti-grav suspensors for heavy weapons and the like.

But a Deathwatch(wing) army would be kinda cool...

Some missions might require the application of overwhelming brute force instead of hit&run. Besides a surprise teleport assault directly in the midst of the enemy is almost a textbook case of a commando strike.

Space Hulks people.

Kanluwen wrote:I just don't see them as having Terminator Armour. They've always been described as striking fast and getting out faster, along with the ideas stuck in my head from the anti-grav suspensors for heavy weapons and the like.

But a Deathwatch(wing) army would be kinda cool...

Nothing's quicker then Teleporting in!

Alpharius wrote:Nothing's quicker then Teleporting in!

Amen.

Xenos Commander: "Blubbblub!! Bluuub! Blubblubbb!
Xenos Henchmen: "Blubblub?"
ZAPP!! ( Enter Kill-Team )
Zenos Commander: "Blub?"
Deathwatch Commander: "DIE XENOS! FIRE AT WILL!"
DAKKADAKKADAKKA...

BrookM wrote:I wonder if FW will do Terminator sized pads?

DW Terminator pads already exist. A single pad comes with the standard Terminator Squad Box.

This implies that DW Terminators exist (not that I'd care if they didn't - I still built two squads of DW Termies).

And remember folks, for years and years all Grey Knights had were Terminators, so don't hold onto the notion that DW units are only small power-armoured Kill Teams armed with Bolters and Heavy Bolters. Even with FFG's game description they've changed what GW has aready published about Deathwatch, including things other than Tactical Marines, Captains and Librarians - now we have DW Apothecaries, Techmarines, Assault Marines and Devastator Marines where before there were none.

Deathwatch are supposed to keep some iconography (and the right shoulderpad) of their origin chapter.
Look at the pictures:

Space Wolf:
http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffg_content/deathwatch/minisite/deathwatch-art1.png

Dark Angels on left, Blood Angels on Right:
http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_public/img_minisites/deathwatch/deathwatch_bg_a.jpg

The rest is hard to tell...

Black Templar?
http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffg_content/deathwatch/minisite/deathwatch-art6.png


And it looks like enemies will be both Xenos AND Chaos:
http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffg_content/deathwatch/minisite/deathwatch-book-open.png

Just thought I'd point out that what may or may not exist in Ordos armies (Xenos or otherwise) is probably going to change once we see the rumoured new Inquisition army book. (that is still rumoured to be released this year, right?)

Don't forget the Ultras of course, they are the cookie-cutter chapter that needs to be in on everything.

This will be interesting. I think the 40k universe in general lends itself very well to roleplaying, and I've enjoyed plenty of campaigns there during the last decade.

I must however admit I can't see a lot of scope for captivating personalities and characters while playing "only" space marines. They seem far to one dimensional for me. Within one chapter, everyones motivations are so similar (serve the emperor, the result is more important than any individual etc). Most of the human weaknesses and motivators that makes for excellent stories are simply not there. Love, lust, greed, pride, insecurity, longing, fear, indecisiveness.

I think Deathwatch will be an excellent action RPG, but I'm afraid it will offer little room for nuanced characters and stories. Like an Uwe Boll movie.

On the other hand, maybe this means that FFG will make a serious overhaul of the rather unbalanced and clumsy combat system that they inherited from BL together with DH. (for example, a higher initiative roll for your character means you are likely to do less damage...) This would of course be a very good thing, since I love a tight combat system almost as much as I love a good story.

Awesomesauce!!!!

Mellon wrote:

I think Deathwatch will be an excellent action RPG, but I'm afraid it will offer little room for nuanced characters and stories. Like an Uwe Boll movie.

Well, this is an RPG, so ultimately it is what YOU and your group make it!

I, for one, am VERY excited!

What Alpha said.

If you think that RP'ing a Space Marine is boring, then you don't get how RPG's work. It's a collaborative effort and you only get out what you put into it (cue 80's fitness ad music). Or, to put it in the modern internet vernacular - you're not doing it right!!!

There's a lot more to Space Marines than the Kyoto-driven 'HURR' memes we have around here, and most people don't have the cynical 'not Marines again' attitude that this place breeds. Besides, it's not like anyone complain that FFG are making another 'boring' Marine centred product, especially given that they've yet to make a Marine centred product - this is the first. The previous two only had 1 Marine in it between the two games (an NPC in one single published scenario).

Absolutionis wrote:Space Wolf:
http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffg_content/deathwatch/minisite/deathwatch-art1.png

That is the most... horrorific example of perspective I have ever seen. It's like he has dwarfism but only in his right arm. You'd think the mutation-prone Space Wolves would try to keep him away from the Inquisition.

You understand perspective, yes, Breotan?

Eh, the artwork looks kind of weird to me, too.

H.B.M.C. wrote:especially given that they've yet to make a Marine centred product - this is the first.

And it probably won't be the last, either.

Place your bets people, how long before FFG starts focusing all of their attention pimping Space Marine-related products and seemingly forgetting that they even make anything else?

Enough Sid. That kind've cynicism should be reserved for mocking Jervis and DD only.

Anyway, from a few still-under-NDA playtesters:

Actually we can say a little more than that. General views (I like it a lot), countering kneejerk derogatory opinions (it's involves a lot more than combat) etc.

We are allowed to give our general impressions of the book, but no details.

My general impressions are; that this game is freaking awsome!

I have playtested several DH and RT books, and this is by a clear mile my absolute favourite so far. The way they have presented Deathwatch characters, the options they have given for character generation and development, the equipment, the adversaries, the setting, the background...everything about it is well thought out, well written and well balanced.

Before playtesting started, I was quite worried about the 'sameness' and lack of individuality that would plague Space Marines. This proved to be an unfounded worry though; FFG have pulled this one off wonderfully, they have created a magnificent game, that has far exceeded my expectations.

I cannot wait to see the end product. No book that FFG has done so far that I have playtested has had me nearly as excited as this one.

My group went into it with much the same concerns. And I think it's understandable for anyone to do so given the 'sameness' of 50 tactical marines on a battlefield.

Instead, from the first session of testing my group were commenting on how different their characters felt from one another. That's something that's only developed throughout the process.

The book allows for various styles of play and campaigns and really supports the idea of roleplaying a Marine and them feeling suitably 'awesome' (as my group kept saying, one common comment was 'I feel like a Space Marine'.

The Jericho Reach is also inspired, there's some very clever things going on there for GMs to grab hold of and run all manner of campaigns with.

This actually has gotten me interested enough to register on their site and pick up their Twitter feed. Will be interesting to follow.

I just want more of that Dark Angel helmet. So over the top I love it.

SPEAKING OF TERMINATOR DEATHWATCH SHOULDER PADS:

Anybody have any I can steal from them? I still need them for my Grey Knights...

OMG I think I just blew a blood vessel.

Now to pray tot he gods they make some deathwatch rules for the game again.

Technically, there's already Deathwatch rules.

They're called Sternguard Veterans.

Alpharius wrote:

Well, this is an RPG, so ultimately it is what YOU and your group make it!

I, for one, am VERY excited!

H.B.M.C. wrote:What Alpha said.

If you think that RP'ing a Space Marine is boring, then you don't get how RPG's work. It's a collaborative effort and you only get out what you put into it (cue 80's fitness ad music). Or, to put it in the modern internet vernacular - you're not doing it right!!!

There's a lot more to Space Marines than the Kyoto-driven 'HURR' memes we have around here, and most people don't have the cynical 'not Marines again' attitude that this place breeds. Besides, it's not like anyone complain that FFG are making another 'boring' Marine centred product, especially given that they've yet to make a Marine centred product - this is the first. The previous two only had 1 Marine in it between the two games (an NPC in one single published scenario).

I know very well how varied the term RPG can be interpreted, and I know very well just what degree of freedom there really is for a creative gaming group. Over 20 years I have played and GMed at least 30 distinctly different rpgs, including a few very experimental modern art/interactive experience/pretentious ones. I've also developed a handful with very varying intentions, from a challenging balanced scaleable party combat system to folklore bedtime stories ment to be played by 12 year olds to divorce-conflicts at the family dinner table. No offense taken though :-) I'll try to explain my worry with the example of Dungeons and Dragons 4. It is an RPG, so in theory I can play whatever sort of campaigns I want with it. However, the rules and the characters and the setting and all the official adventures does really support and inspire to a particular kind of stories, namely the action centered ones. If I want to play a storytelling/social drama/romance campaign, I'm going to ignore 80%+ of the content of all the DnD4 books and I'll have to make loads of stuff up. Compare with Nobilis, Amber or any of a multitude of even less known "alternative" rpgs. Those games inspire to a completely different sort of stories that are centered around the storytelling and the interesting characters where physical conflict is a rather minor issue. They are on the other hand utterly useless for playing a challenging action-centered campaign. DH, and in slightly lesser degree RT offers plenty opprtunity to play campaigns where the story and the characters developements are the main theme, and there is plenty of room for action. This good mix is one of the reasons why I am currently GMing two campaigns in the 40k universe. In this comparision I am afraid that Deathwatch will have a more DnD4-esque focus.

I do not have any particular aversion to space marines. I enjoy playing them on the TT, and I enjoy using them as occasional NPCs in my DH-campaigns. I just find it hard to imagine them as deep characters with complex emotions and motivations. Judging from 20 years of reading fluff about marines, they seem far too brainwashed and single minded to offer much variation and social interactions. Their size and demeanor will make any social interactions very coloured by the average imperial citicens preconceptions of Space Marines. I can't imagine a marine falling in love, feeling lust, being sneaky, betraying the other marines, crying over a long lost father he has outlived by fifteen decades, etc. There is so much of the huamaity that is lacking in spacemarines, it just makes them feel alien. That is what I am worried about.

I would love an article that outlines the emotional span of marines and how it interferes and conflicts with their brainwashed codes of behaviour. I want a "Pride and predjudice" type campaign. I want discussions on how love affairs between members of different chapters are viewed and what social stigmas are associated to such affairs. I want morally ambiguos stories that lets our gaming group experience deeply conflicting wants and ethical greys. I want sneak, subterfuge and the ability to further the story by clever social interaction. I want the baseline of behaviour to be at the level where a truly noble sacrifice will shine, and not just be the order of the day. And I think these subjects will not be particularily touched upon in the Deathwatch book. But I must admit I'd really love to be in error.

Do you understand better now why I am a bit hesitant about this book, compared to the previous FFG products? And do you think I am wrong in being so negative?