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Sidstyler wrote:Eh, the artwork looks kind of weird to me, too.

H.B.M.C. wrote:especially given that they've yet to make a Marine centred product - this is the first.

And it probably won't be the last, either.

Place your bets people, how long before FFG starts focusing all of their attention pimping Space Marine-related products and seemingly forgetting that they even make anything else?

Yeah, sure, given their previous release history...

Wait!

Really Sid, you need to CALM DOWN with the anti-Space Marine rhetoric.

It is sad, old and tired.

It doesn't put you in the best light.

All the cool kids?

They aren't the ones doing it...

So can someone elaborate on the quality of FFG rpg system that has been used thus far in the 40K based RPGs?

I am intrigued by Deathwatch and it may be the catalyst that brings me out of my 10 year retirement from roleplaying/gamemastering, but I have been running into people saying things like this:

This (Deathwatch) would be awesome if they decided to use a decent system. As it stands the system for dark heresy is rather weak. No reason to buy this game. If we play it we would use a different system and I can pretty much make the story elements myself.

Comments?

What are the major strengths and weaknesses of the system? How would you rate it overall? IS it a complex system to teach to those new to RPGs

The DH system is at it's base a simple %-roll. All modifiers are simple adding and subtracting of chance to succeed. As a such it is pretty simple to balance and predict the effect of modifiers for a clever game designer/GM. It is also pretty simple to teach people, it goes something like this: Check what basic stat the test is based on, your value in this stat is your chance to succeed. Add modifiers from your relevant skills, gear, talents etc. Then add or subtract any other relevant modifiers such as environment and general difficulty of the task, your GM usually supplies this. This gives you your target number. Roll a d100, if you roll less than or equal to the target number you succeed, else you fail. This system can be learnt by anyone (even complete RPG-newbs) in the first evening of play. Even if I prefer to make the %-roll additive, such as: roll a D100 add all your bonuses, if you reach 100 or higher you have succeeded. Easier math makes for a more fluent game.

Then the DH system adds extra gubbins and bits. On many rolls it makes a difference by what margin you succeed or fail, every margin of a full 10 points grants you one Rate of success or failure. You have many mechanics that lets you reroll etc. Some bonuses are a bit unclear on when they are appliable. Some skills overlap very much and in strange ways. Some abilities are just way powerful compared to their alternatives.

In combat things gets more complicated where Rates of success can give multiple hits with some weapons and the different weapons are not in any meaningful way balanced against each other or the general progress of opposition/dificulty. The combat system is simply not very good. Unclear rules and fuzzy abilities that synergy in unpredictable ways. The initiative problem is my favorite pet peeve: A character is likely to do more damage the lower her initiative roll is, since the targets damage avoidance rolls reset to maximum effectivity at the same time as the initiative count restarts from the top. So a player at a low initiative is likely to strike at a target that has already spent it's avoidance rolls.

However, this only really matters if you want to play a campaign where challenging combat encounters is the central part. It is doable but you are likely to have to play a campaign or two before you find out how to houserule the system to make it work. And if you do want combat first, then I'd really reccomend another system such as DnD4 wich is pretty tight... or at least it was when they had only published 4 or 5 books. It requires a lot of work if you really want to play in the 40k setting though.

But if you want a storydriven campaign and is prepared to do some "oh, what the heck, that seems cool" on the fly. Then the DH rules work fine for that.

And to sum up this discussion: FFG made a decent overhaul of the combat system between DH (that Black Library actually created) and RT, patching up many of the strange incinsitencies. So they might very well fix up an even better system to the Deathwatch game.

"An Eldar jumps out of the webway and destroys you with technology so advanced you cannot even comprehend it!! OH WAIT I forgot they are ELDARZ duh. An Eldar jumps out of the webway and collapses before you, begging for mercy before you put a single bolter round through his arm, killing him instantly."

lol
A more accurate scenario would be:
"The eldar jetbike flying circus of cheese just took over the entire galaxy all on its own".

Absolutionis wrote:Deathwatch are supposed to keep some iconography (and the right shoulderpad) of their origin chapter.
Black Templar?
http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffg_content/deathwatch/minisite/deathwatch-art6.png

Definitely looks more like Iron Hands. Notice the bionic left arm and face.

Bionics aren't restricted to Iron Hands only.

Otherwise there's a ton of Ultramarines models painted the wrong Chapter

Smashotron wrote:

Absolutionis wrote:Deathwatch are supposed to keep some iconography (and the right shoulderpad) of their origin chapter.
Black Templar?
http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffg_content/deathwatch/minisite/deathwatch-art6.png

Definitely looks more like Iron Hands. Notice the bionic left arm and face.

Death Watch always have a silver arm and shoulder guard.

Ah excellent news, now I'm playing Dark Heresy at long last I'm really falling for the system as a mainstay game.

Marine lvl stuff would be quite fun, think I might be pre-ordering this one.

Love the idea, especially if they get a good balance. Only issue that I can see? The characters aren't really that divergent in nature. I mena, they can get a few different types, who can do a few different things. But for role playing? I'm not normally a HURR!!! cryer. But with 6 different people all roleplaying space marines? I mean, someone has to HURR, right?

Sidstyler wrote:Space Marines. Just in case you weren't already tired of them dominating every aspect of 40k, here they are to ruin roleplaying for you, too.

Sid, feel free to play Dark Heresy or Rogue Trader, both of which are still completely supported and exceptional templates for a nice RPG. 1/3 FFG RPGs focusing on Marines isn't too bad.

Color me in for hoping the 6 Chapters do not include any FF chapters, or if so, one like the Salamanders or White Scars. Back when I was converting a DW army, I specifically tried to have the fun of conceiving of my own Chapters or looking at GW's lesser known and utilized Chapters. I still had a few of the known boys, but the fun was in making up additional chapters and iconography.

Alpharius wrote:

Sidstyler wrote:Eh, the artwork looks kind of weird to me, too.

H.B.M.C. wrote:especially given that they've yet to make a Marine centred product - this is the first.

And it probably won't be the last, either.

Place your bets people, how long before FFG starts focusing all of their attention pimping Space Marine-related products and seemingly forgetting that they even make anything else?

Yeah, sure, given their previous release history...

Wait!

Really Sid, you need to CALM DOWN with the anti-Space Marine rhetoric.

It is sad, old and tired.

It doesn't put you in the best light.

All the cool kids?

They aren't the ones doing it...

I must say, you have quite the anti HURR calling card. In fact you seem to sometimes get rather worked up about it? Though I must admit it does get a bit old.

All the cool kids are, well, you know, not playing with models either :p

Or modding on forums. :p

Ha?

You seem to be laboring under the misconception that I consider myself a 'cool kid'? (Note: they also aren't posting on Toy Soldier forums either, I'd guess.)

And I absolutely am tired of the knee-jerk anti-marine sentiment, especially when, in this case, it isn't deserved.

Hurr.

I might buy it for the fluff.

Hard to imagine why someone even gets into 40k if they hate everything space marine.. I mean thats basically the entire purpose of 40k is to play out the narrative of space marines

Very few non-imperium books or people who can even write xenos novels without MULTILAZORS.. FW admited they have no idea how to write from a xenos perspective and most non-SM codices have fluff based upon imperium knowledge

So again Im surprised someone can play 40k (perhaps tho someone can just post on forums) and hate everything to do with the core of the game

Not wanting to play space marines is totally different than hating them as a concept

I'm looking forward to this, although as I just spent my RPG allowance for the year on Rogue Trader, I guess I can wait. I am curious to see how the power levels compare across DH /RT / DW though. I know Rogue Traders nominally start off on an equal foting as a rank 5 Dark Heresy character. I guess Deathwatch will be link like rank 15 or however high Ascension goes...

lords2001 wrote:I mean, someone has to HURR, right?

HURR falls, you die.


And considering that I'm the one in our group who owns all the FFG books, will be camping outside of FFG's offices to get this book, and owns a Deathwatch army - there'll be none of that 'HURR' crap when I'm running the game.


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Kirasu wrote:FW admited they have no idea how to write from a xenos perspective and most non-SM codices have fluff based upon imperium knowledge

That's only because Warwick has no where to copypasta the information from. If there were lots of xeno-POV stories out there, FW would be swimming in pasta sauce... I mean Xeno books.

Actually...the exact statement in regards to why there's no books from a Xenos perspective, in regards to Forge World at least, is they don't know how to make it comprehensible in the format of a military campaign.

But I digress. HBMC, how much general background material do these books actually have in them?

Smashotron wrote:

Absolutionis wrote:Deathwatch are supposed to keep some iconography (and the right shoulderpad) of their origin chapter.
Black Templar?
http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffg_content/deathwatch/minisite/deathwatch-art6.png

Definitely looks more like Iron Hands. Notice the bionic left arm and face.

I never noticed the bionic left arm.
I thought it looked like a Black Templar due to this:
http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1252504_99120101043_BTupgradespruemain_873x627.jpg

The bare head on the sprue looks almost exactly like the one in the art.
Plus, the right shoulderpad doesn't look much like the (inconsistent) symbol of the Iron Hands being a gauntlet or a cog or claw. It looks more like a white Maltese Cross.

Ether way, it seems that Dark Angels, Blood Angels, and Space Wolves are confirmed to be three of the 'races' with another being Black Templar and/or Iron Hands and/or some other black-themed army.

Mellon wrote:The DH system is at it's base a simple %-roll. All modifiers are simple adding and subtracting of chance to succeed. *snip - lots of details*

thanks for the rundown (not being sarcastic, i appreciated the details) but you've actually convinced me not to buy the game. while i love the 40k background, any RPG that reminds me of the horrible palladium systems (they all use the % rolls as you described) loses my money. % systems were quite the rage in the 1980's and early 1990's but since then much more elegant ways of resolving combat and skills have been developed.

So from one person, you're not going to buy it?

Maybe go here or here first, and don't judge a game from one post.


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Kanluwen wrote:Actually...the exact statement in regards to why there's no books from a Xenos perspective, in regards to Forge World at least, is they don't know how to make it comprehensible in the format of a military campaign.

Clearly when the Emperor whispered life into your soul, he forgot to include a sense of humour.

Kanluwen wrote:But I digress. HBMC, how much general background material do these books actually have in them?

Enough to make them worth buying as background books even when you never intend to play the game.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Actually...the exact statement in regards to why there's no books from a Xenos perspective, in regards to Forge World at least, is they don't know how to make it comprehensible in the format of a military campaign.

Clearly when the Emperor whispered life into your soul, he forgot to include a sense of humour.

Who says it was the Emperor?
All hail Cypher!

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:But I digress. HBMC, how much general background material do these books actually have in them?

Enough to make them worth buying as background books even when you never intend to play the game.

Interesting. Very very interesting. I wonder if Deathwatch will discuss the interaction of Kill-Teams and the Tomb Worlds in detail?

H.B.M.C. wrote:So from one person, you're not going to buy it?

Maybe go here or here first, and don't judge a game from one post.

regardless of how the rest of the artwork, layout, etc. is, if i absolutely can't stand the fundamental mechanic of the game (percentage rolls for combat/skill resolution), do you really think it'll matter? lol, if someone tells you they absolutely hate d6 games because they think the range of outcomes is way too limited, do you recommend 40k to them anyways?

I don't tend to play games because of the rules. I certainly don't like 40K's rules at all, yet I still play it.

I play it because of the story, background, characters, narrative opportunities and even the models.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

lords2001 wrote:I mean, someone has to HURR, right?

HURR falls, you die.


And considering that I'm the one in our group who owns all the FFG books, will be camping outside of FFG's offices to get this book, and owns a Deathwatch army - there'll be none of that 'HURR' crap when I'm running the game.

There is going to be so much HURR!

"Squad, lets go over HURR!"
"HURRy, get the Xenos!"
"Sergeant, are you HURRt?"
"HURRRl yourself at the enemy!"
"Scum, did you HURRRR me speak?"
"Set the timer to blow in one HURRR!"

Bahahhahahahahhahaha.

I fall, Hurr reacts, GM dies


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Alpharius wrote:Ha?

You seem to be laboring under the misconception that I consider myself a 'cool kid'? (Note: they also aren't posting on Toy Soldier forums either, I'd guess.)

And I absolutely am tired of the knee-jerk anti-marine sentiment, especially when, in this case, it isn't deserved.

Hurr.

Nice finish.

I was more thinking that you sometimes seem as reactionary as the anti marines yourself. Just remember, while they hate marines, they are probably painting Eldar to resemble Liberachi while slackly drooling out of their mouths. Or counting the number of buttons on their sweater for the 20th time while painting Tau in synergistic colourations - those are general statements, so hopefully doesn't fall foul of the Inquisition. Even though I am expecting it

No need to get frustrated - just imagine what will happen when the next marine release comes out

Warboss: Glad to be of help. And I agree with you, I wish more creativity and thought had gone into the setup of the rules of DH. They work OK for me and my gaming groups, and even if they don't really add to the gaming experience (as I believe a good rules system should) they don't get in the way a lot either. Because, as H.B.M.C says: The rules are not the central part at all. If I found the %-system as horrible as you do, I'd probably rework the stats etc to fit with another system, because the setting is awesome and lends itself very well to the kind of stories I want to tell.

For my first DH group, it took us the better part of the first campaign to realise that the rules system was essentially broken, or at least very easily exploitable. After we reached that conclusion we could relax our powergaming attitudes a bit and make characters that were beneficient to the story, rather than trying to be combat powerhouses.

H.B.M.C: I couldn't agree more. It's certainly not the rules that makes me play 40k. It's mostly setting, availability and indeed the modelling part of it. Similar goes for the DH rpgs.

lords2001 wrote:

Alpharius wrote:Ha?

You seem to be laboring under the misconception that I consider myself a 'cool kid'? (Note: they also aren't posting on Toy Soldier forums either, I'd guess.)

And I absolutely am tired of the knee-jerk anti-marine sentiment, especially when, in this case, it isn't deserved.

Hurr.

Nice finish.

I was more thinking that you sometimes seem as reactionary as the anti marines yourself. Just remember, while they hate marines, they are probably painting Eldar to resemble Liberachi while slackly drooling out of their mouths. Or counting the number of buttons on their sweater for the 20th time while painting Tau in synergistic colourations - those are general statements, so hopefully doesn't fall foul of the Inquisition. Even though I am expecting it

No need to get frustrated - just imagine what will happen when the next marine release comes out

Touche!

Good points, one and all!

My anti-hurr is the other side of the Hurr coin!

Aieeee!!!!

Still, I am looking forward to this and, unless I'm mistaken (and really, I often am!), this will be the first time anywhere that GW/FW/BL/FFG/Etc. have put out rules for an RPG in which you play Space Marines?

Anti-Hurr indeed!

Dakka is a bad place for starting memes no matter how hard you try and fail to be funny.

HURR!!! Was started by Dooby, I believe.

And the rest (like that despicable 'Speehss Mehreens' one that is completely false) came from 4chan.

Alpharius wrote:
Still, I am looking forward to this and, unless I'm mistaken (and really, I often am!), this will be the first time anywhere that GW/FW/BL/FFG/Etc. have put out rules for an RPG in which you play Space Marines?

Anti-Hurr indeed!

That depends on how you look at Inquisitor (the 54mm game). Me and many other people played a lot of excellent combat centered RPG-campaigns using that system and no models at all, so it might be fair to call it an RPG. The =][= rulebook included no less than a Deathwatch sergeant as an example of a playable character, who was probably a bit underpowered, compared to the fluff.

lords2001 wrote:I was more thinking that you sometimes seem as reactionary as the anti marines yourself. Just remember, while they hate marines, they are probably painting Eldar to resemble Liberachi while slackly drooling out of their mouths. Or counting the number of buttons on their sweater for the 20th time while painting Tau in synergistic colourations - those are general statements, so hopefully doesn't fall foul of the Inquisition. Even though I am expecting it

No need to get frustrated - just imagine what will happen when the next marine release comes out

that's ridiculous. i own half a dozen sweaters and i've never painted my tau while wearing them. they don't even have buttons; they're pullovers!