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I just realized the thread title is lying. The teacher wasn't fired.

Redbeard wrote:
Example: My (evil) step-mother is a math professor at the Illinois Institute of Technology, which is primarily an engineering and architecture school. This last semester she was teaching an intro-level math class called college algebra for business majors. Over dinner the other night she was lamenting how completely unprepared freshmen college students have become in the last few years and told us how she asked a simple question about interest on a recent test, if you invested $100 at 6% interest for a year, how much would you have at the end of the year. (The answer, using simple interest, is $106, BTW). She had students coming up with answers in the millions of dollar range.

I attend this institute (EDIT b/c I'm crabby this evening)

Who is she? (PM works)

Perhaps it's a bit of both. Maybe the teacher was more used to working with upper-classmen. But, maybe also, the entry level, non-science-major students had absolutely no idea how much work is expected in college-level science classes, didn't put the required effort in, and got poor grades as a result.

Were that the case the professor would have been failing her upper level students as well. Student quality is endemic to the institutions which they are being raised in, and if the were really that stupid then the professor would have encountered issues previously.

Knowing many college students and teachers, I simply cannot believe that the teacher is so out-of-touch that this is all her fault.

Not all, but 90% is a significant failing on the part of the professor to educate to the standards being demanded.

My (evil) step-mother is a math professor at the Illinois Institute of Technology, which is primarily an engineering and architecture school. This last semester she was teaching an intro-level math class called college algebra for business majors. Over dinner the other night she was lamenting how completely unprepared freshmen college students have become in the last few years and told us how she asked a simple question about interest on a recent test, if you invested $100 at 6% interest for a year, how much would you have at the end of the year. (The answer, using simple interest, is $106, BTW). She had students coming up with answers in the millions of dollar range.

Maybe she should have taught those things.

The high school education in this country has gotten so bad that freshmen heading to college are frequently out of their depth, especially in the maths and sciences. I don't believe that college level classes should be called upon to lower their standards, punishing the students who didn't sleep through high school, in order to make up for this.

I would argue that its more symptomatic of the requirement of a modern american working force to have a college degree or better. The lazy and uneducated used to just get paid 14 dollars an hour making car parts, now they have to go to school. There are a myriad number of reasons, but since this isn't an issue with every single science class across the country I doubt "lazy high schools" is the answer here.

Great, No Child Left Behind is infecting colleges now. Are blue book tests even given anymore? This country's education level is falling... fast.

ShumaGorath wrote:The number of multiple choice answers are irrelevant. No one would be complaining if they were simple answer tests with no choices given at all, and those are far harder than any number of multiple choices. The issue is the content of the questions and whether they were too advanced for the curriculum and student body to handle. Given that the teacher had previously been teaching upper level education classes to seniors or graduate students it would pretty heavily imply a loss of perspective as to the capabilities of non science major students in an introductory courses. 90% dropped out or failing is unacceptable and it either speaks to an incapable teacher, poor method, or administrative error in calculating grades. My assumption is that the course was simply too difficult as presented for the student body to handle.

I had an econ 100 prof who hated that because econ was a general arts class people from outside of econ could take he tried to fail every last person who did take it. She sounds a lot like him.

efarrer wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:The number of multiple choice answers are irrelevant. No one would be complaining if they were simple answer tests with no choices given at all, and those are far harder than any number of multiple choices. The issue is the content of the questions and whether they were too advanced for the curriculum and student body to handle. Given that the teacher had previously been teaching upper level education classes to seniors or graduate students it would pretty heavily imply a loss of perspective as to the capabilities of non science major students in an introductory courses. 90% dropped out or failing is unacceptable and it either speaks to an incapable teacher, poor method, or administrative error in calculating grades. My assumption is that the course was simply too difficult as presented for the student body to handle.

I had an econ 100 prof who hated that because econ was a general arts class people from outside of econ could take he tried to fail every last person who did take it. She sounds a lot like him.

Weird. Economics are actually really simple, I find it bizarre that she would be so bitter.

ShumaGorath wrote:
Weird. Economics are actually really simple, I find it bizarre that she would be so bitter.

Absolute hate for undergrads. It's not uncommon, ask a prof you trust.

I thought the teaching method was pretty solid....

.... until I read that its a non-major course, It which I thought it was pretty stupid. I can see pushing people who are majoring in it that much, but not someone who just picked it up as a beginners type of thing, thats just inconceivable.

efarrer wrote:
Absolute hate for undergrads. It's not uncommon, ask a prof you trust.

At research institutions its probably the most prevalent position.

This is a hard professor!

ok its a class for Non Science Majors.... Lets look at the programs LSU Offers.... (from the schools official site... http://www.lsu.edu/students/academics.shtml )

Colleges & Schools (A - Z)
•Agriculture
•Art & Design
•Arts & Sciences
•Basic Sciences
•Business, E. J. Ourso
•Coast and Environment
•Continuing Education
•Education
•Engineering
•Graduate School
•Honors College
•Library & Information Science
•Mass Communication, Manship School of
•Music & Dramatic Arts
•Social Work
•University College
•Veterinary Medicine

Now remove the Science related items.... four total.... Graduate school (upperclassmen) and Honors and University colleges (seperate programs.) and Continuing Ed.

that leaves
•Agriculture
•Art & Design
•Business, E. J. Ourso
•Education
•Engineering
•Library & Information Science
•Mass Communication, Manship School of
•Music & Dramatic Arts
•Social Work
Ag and Social work Could require a "hard" bio class....
Leaving Business and Engineering as the top end classes both being Math heavy.

Leaving the following

•Art & Design
•Education
•Library & Information Science
•Mass Communication, Manship School of
•Music & Dramatic Arts
This list is the kind of fluffy bunny classes they put (Insert sport here) players in to "help" them keep up a GPA that allows them to play, in accordance with NCAA rules. These are also the programs that would have a base bio requirement in them.

"But Coach... This class is so Hard. Can't you do something?"

helgrenze wrote:ok its a class for Non Science Majors.... Lets look at the programs LSU Offers.... (from the schools official site... http://www.lsu.edu/students/academics.shtml )

Colleges & Schools (A - Z)

•Art & Design
•Education
•Library & Information Science
•Mass Communication, Manship School of
•Music & Dramatic Arts
This list is the kind of fluffy bunny classes they put (Insert sport here) players in to "help" them keep up a GPA that allows them to play, in accordance with NCAA rules. These are also the programs that would have a base bio requirement in them.

"But Coach... This class is so Hard. Can't you do something?"

I can't speak for Arts and sciences but Library Sciences at any College is not fluffy bunny, nor are Education and Mass Communication.
I should note this is particularly the case for Library and Information Science as it is not ever an entry level program, but rather a Master's program.

The professor is tenured, and you don't get tenure from running a first year bio class one time.

I think the most likely thing here is that senior staff member, probably who's worked mostly in research or postgrad, has been given a first year class. I know around my uni there's a lot of really skilled researchers that should never, ever be let near a lecture hall. There should have been better process followed in the lead up to removing her from the class, but removing her from the class seemed well justified, that 90% drop out/fail rate is absurd.


The only bit that really worried me was "there are students who get upset when he talks about the actual age of the earth and about evolution." What the hell is that?

Since no one actually failed the teachers class I'm not sure how we are even having this conversation. It was the possibility that there might have been a lot of failed students.

sebster wrote:
The only bit that really worried me was "there are students who get upset when he talks about the actual age of the earth and about evolution." What the hell is that?

THAT is a result of LSU being in the South and close to the Bible Belt. Sadly, much of America is still very religious, and many of them(especially in areas that include large numbers of Baptists, Methodists, and Evangelicals[which Baton Rouge has an Evangelical seminary school within 8-10 miles of LSU]) are fundamentalist. Evolution is still a touchy subject in many parts of America and many parents don't want it taught to their children as they feel it devalues their Christian faith/beliefs.

Ok.... lets look at the Prof....
Dominique G. Homberger
Tenured...... this doesnt just get handed out as a tenure for a Prof is technically a lifetime contract.
Published.... 12 books in 3 languages all concerning Biology with a focus on disection.
First published in 1976... more than 30 years ago
Most recently published in 2007... a CRAM101 textbook outline.
(sounds kinda like an expert on the subject to me.)

Now, it is true that she hasn't taught an intro course in 15 years. BUT, She offered to teach more classes and the school suggested this class to her.

Also, Tenure is SUPPOSED to allow for academic freedom and insure the integrity of the grading system, without pressure from the administration to issue higher grades.

The removal was prompted by "Student Complaints". The First exam of FOUR given in the class was the only real evidence for the removal. The Prof states that she gives credit for improvement over the course of the class.

So the University is in the wrong here.... and sets a dangerous precident....

Dont like your grades.... WHINE.

Honestly, entry-level bio for non-science that sounds a little strict to me. The only thing I could compare it to is entry-level physics which is more the opposite since medical etc students don't take it.

I say fail.

Did she really have to get FIRED though? Weird.

The first time I TA'd a course 100%of the class failed the first test, and the highest mark was 38%. A bit of an eye-opener about how stupid some people are.

From the quote in the OP:

"Even for those who, like Homberger, are tenured, there is a risk of losing the ability to stick to your standards, he said, Teaching geology, he said, there are students who get upset when he talks about the actual age of the earth and about evolution. "Now students can complain to a dean" and have him removed, Elwood said. "I worry that my ability to teach in the classroom has been diminished."

How did this nugget of crazy get missed? Why would these people even take geology classes?

I've seen some pretty whiny undergrads (and in my current course, some exceptionally whiny postgrads), but at the same time, I've been in some badly run lecture series. Once in physics in third year, we had a guy try to cram a terms worth of statistical mechanics into a six week intro course. I loved it, because statistical mechanics is really interesting, but none of us did well on the exam because even for someone studious and interested there was just too much information to take in when you factored in our other coursework.

George Spiggott wrote:From the quote in the OP:

"Even for those who, like Homberger, are tenured, there is a risk of losing the ability to stick to your standards, he said, Teaching geology, he said, there are students who get upset when he talks about the actual age of the earth and about evolution. "Now students can complain to a dean" and have him removed, Elwood said. "I worry that my ability to teach in the classroom has been diminished."

How did this nugget of crazy get missed? Why would these people even take geology classes?

Further, why is evolution being taught in a geology class?

ShumaGorath wrote:

George Spiggott wrote:From the quote in the OP:

"Even for those who, like Homberger, are tenured, there is a risk of losing the ability to stick to your standards, he said, Teaching geology, he said, there are students who get upset when he talks about the actual age of the earth and about evolution. "Now students can complain to a dean" and have him removed, Elwood said. "I worry that my ability to teach in the classroom has been diminished."

How did this nugget of crazy get missed? Why would these people even take geology classes?

Further, why is evolution being taught in a geology class?

Geology includes at least a basic understanding of Fossils and fossil fuels and is a required precourse for students in both archeology and paleontology.

Tacobake wrote:Honestly, entry-level bio for non-science that sounds a little strict to me. The only thing I could compare it to is entry-level physics which is more the opposite since medical etc students don't take it.

I say fail.

Did she really have to get FIRED though? Weird.

She didn't get fired, Fraz's thread title is wrong. She's tenured and couldn't get fired if the school wanted to. They actually just took her off the course, which is probably reasonable.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Platuan4th wrote:THAT is a result of LSU being in the South and close to the Bible Belt. Sadly, much of America is still very religious, and many of them(especially in areas that include large numbers of Baptists, Methodists, and Evangelicals[which Baton Rouge has an Evangelical seminary school within 8-10 miles of LSU]) are fundamentalist. Evolution is still a touchy subject in many parts of America and many parents don't want it taught to their children as they feel it devalues their Christian faith/beliefs.

Yeah, I knew there were issues and all of that, and I could kind of accept them impacting primary and secondary education, but the idea of someone at college taking a course and the complaining about the science just, well, that's really the point at which it's gotten far too silly.

helgrenze wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

George Spiggott wrote:From the quote in the OP:

"Even for those who, like Homberger, are tenured, there is a risk of losing the ability to stick to your standards, he said, Teaching geology, he said, there are students who get upset when he talks about the actual age of the earth and about evolution. "Now students can complain to a dean" and have him removed, Elwood said. "I worry that my ability to teach in the classroom has been diminished."

How did this nugget of crazy get missed? Why would these people even take geology classes?

Further, why is evolution being taught in a geology class?

Geology includes at least a basic understanding of Fossils and fossil fuels and is a required precourse for students in both archeology and paleontology.

I fail to see what that has to do with evolution.

Often times the evolutionary time scale is used as a stepping stone in bringing students to an appreciation of the geologic time scale.

It isn't like this guy said he taught evolution in class. He said he talked about. Professors sometimes (read: frequently) go off on tangents.

More to the point: why are people complaining about a teacher relating information about a point of view? You go to class to learn, and learning doesn't necessarily have anything to do with truth. At least not in the sense that the truth of a statement must correlate with the substance of a statement.

Shuma,
When Darwin went on the HMS Beagle journey he had two prized books: Charles Lyell's "Principles of Geology" and Thomas Malthus's "Essay on Population." In order for the theory of evolution the Earth needs to be really old; Lyell's book established this. If you combine a huge duration (Lyell) with a struggle for resources (Malthus) you get natural selection.

dogma wrote:Often times the evolutionary time scale is used as a stepping stone in bringing students to an appreciation of the geologic time scale.

It isn't like this guy said he taught evolution in class. He said he talked about. Professors sometimes (read: frequently) go off on tangents.

More to the point: why are people complaining about a teacher relating information about a point of view? You go to class to learn, and learning doesn't necessarily have anything to do with truth. At least not in the sense that the truth of a statement must correlate with the substance of a statement.

If you are a strict Bishop Ussher believer, the world was created 6006 years ago or something. Evolution and Geology are both nonsense because the time during which they are supposed to have happened didn't exist.

I present the most extreme form of the argument for the sake of illustration.

I assume these people's faith is so weak that it precludes any presentation of a point of view which would challenge them.

gorgon wrote:
On the other hand, what the heck is biology for non-science majors? At my university (not LSU size but still probably 30K total student body), bio was bio. Is it intended to be a joke version of the real class? And if so, why is LSU scheduling joke classes?

I know my university requires you to take a bunch of classes unrelated to your major. Could have been something like that.

helgrenze wrote:Ok.... lets look at the Prof....
Dominique G. Homberger
Tenured...... this doesnt just get handed out as a tenure for a Prof is technically a lifetime contract.
Published.... 12 books in 3 languages all concerning Biology with a focus on disection.
First published in 1976... more than 30 years ago
Most recently published in 2007... a CRAM101 textbook outline.
(sounds kinda like an expert on the subject to me.)

Now, it is true that she hasn't taught an intro course in 15 years. BUT, She offered to teach more classes and the school suggested this class to her.

Also, Tenure is SUPPOSED to allow for academic freedom and insure the integrity of the grading system, without pressure from the administration to issue higher grades.

The removal was prompted by "Student Complaints". The First exam of FOUR given in the class was the only real evidence for the removal. The Prof states that she gives credit for improvement over the course of the class.

So the University is in the wrong here.... and sets a dangerous precident....

Dont like your grades.... WHINE.

Thats asinine. If 90% of the class is gone she would be gone.

Frazz... Since the only information we have on the students in the class is.....

more than 90% of the students in Dr. Homberger's class were failing or had dropped the class.

.... We cannot tell how many dropped vs howmany were at that point failing.

The OP then goes on to explain....(my bold)

At the point that she was removed, she said, some students in the course might not have been able to do much better than a D, but every student could have earned a passing grade. Further, she said that her tough policy was already having an impact, and that the grades on her second test were much higher (she was removed from teaching right after she gave that exam), and that quiz scores were up sharply. Students got the message from her first test, and were working harder, she said.

Note that the Professor states that she believes the remaining students would pass the course.

Homberger declined to give out the names of students who have expressed support, saying that to do so would violate her confidentiality obligations. But she released (without student names) answers to a bonus question on the course's second test. The question asked students to describe "the biggest 'AHA' reaction" they had had during the course.

Many of the reactions were about various issues in biology — with evolution as a major topic. But a number dealt with grades and work habits. One was critical: "When I found out my test grade, I almost had a heart attack."

But many other comments about the course standards were positive, with several students specifically praising Homberger's advice that they form study groups. One student wrote: "My biggest 'AHA' reaction in this course is that I need to study for this course every night to make a good grade. I must also attend class, take good notes, and have study sessions with others. Usually a little studying can get me by but not with this class which is why it is my 'AHA' reaction."

The first "AHA moment" here is a statement of SHOCK. Almost as if the student was expecting to skate the course. get an easy "A". The second "AHA moment" is one of REALIZATION. This isnt Highschool, its not about who you hang with, or what uniform you wear. Its college... where you have to apply yourself and actually study.

One final note from the middle of the OP that I fully agree with.....

"We are listening to the students who make excuses, and this is unfair to the other students," she said. "I think it's unfair to the students" to send a message that the way to deal with a difficult learning situation is "to complain" rather than to study harder.

But that is exactly the message the Dean of her department is sending. Don't Study.. Whine.. and they will give you better grades... which is what the school did.