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Platuan4th wrote:

Redbeard wrote:It has always been a teacher's right to set the questions on their own tests.

Actually, that's not exactly true. Having GONE to LSU, I know for a fact that certain departments have mandatory department tests/exams that teachers HAVE to administer and don't have the right to alter in any way.

Frazzled wrote:(For those not from the South LSU is a good college but not Ivy League)

They also have a live tiger for a mascot.

Respect. We had a mountain lion.

Frazzled wrote:

Platuan4th wrote:

Redbeard wrote:It has always been a teacher's right to set the questions on their own tests.

Actually, that's not exactly true. Having GONE to LSU, I know for a fact that certain departments have mandatory department tests/exams that teachers HAVE to administer and don't have the right to alter in any way.

Frazzled wrote:(For those not from the South LSU is a good college but not Ivy League)

They also have a live tiger for a mascot.

Respect. We had a mountain lion.

We have the largest Tiger in captivity(currently at ~420 lbs, expected to reach 600-700 lbs when fully grown), as well as the largest area for any single tiger in captivity(15,000 sq ft). Interesting factoid: Mike V(the previous tiger who died in 2007) actually had a cousin named Tony.

I like how the teacher is completely out of line or the students are all clearly lazy. No middle ground? I know my girlfriend is a hard, studious worker and she's swamped up at UNT. I think the amount of work given outside of class needs to have some kind of limit as some of these kids need to work to earn a living and keep going there too. I know many professor's assume their class is the most important, but you can teach people effectively without giving tons of stress to them.

Platuan4th wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

Platuan4th wrote:

Redbeard wrote:It has always been a teacher's right to set the questions on their own tests.

Actually, that's not exactly true. Having GONE to LSU, I know for a fact that certain departments have mandatory department tests/exams that teachers HAVE to administer and don't have the right to alter in any way.

Frazzled wrote:(For those not from the South LSU is a good college but not Ivy League)

They also have a live tiger for a mascot.

Respect. We had a mountain lion.

We have the largest Tiger in captivity(currently at ~420 lbs, expected to reach 600-700 lbs when fully grown), as well as the largest area for any single tiger in captivity(15,000 sq ft). Interesting factoid: Mike V(the previous tiger who died in 2007) actually had a cousin named Tony.

We had the fattest. in texas, even our mascots eat well.

dogma wrote:I think its also important to note that we don't have enough information to come to a definitive conclusion either way. Without access to the tests in question, there really is no way to determine whether this was a matter of an overzealous professor, a failure of student expectations, or some combination of the two.

Again, this is very important, even though I do have expectations that if we do actually see the tests, it will be clear as day that the Prof was on a personal tangent.

Fateweaver wrote:On the other hand Wrex you have single moms/dads going to school full time who are able to pass their classes and find time to study on top of raising kids and being a parent.

Sure the kids might be in daycare or with a sitter part or most of a day but most college students don't spend 12 hours a day studying/doing homework. I'd guess about 8 hours a day drinking, 2 hours getting laid and or puking and then 2 hours doing homework and studying and then wondering why they can't pass a certain class (or don't graduate at all).

This is a pretty common strawman, and the actual number of people that succeed at this lifestyle is very limited. You should be able to study 4-8 hours, 6 days a week, without a family to raise, and achieve a comfortable 'B' grade in doing so. With 4-7 classes a week, there are simply limits to the amount of time you can invest in individual classes, and with a family, you will require support on that front to be able to study that vigorously in the first place. Either kids are in daycare due to their parents having the ability to provide it, or Grandma/Auntie takes care of the kids as a part-time job.

I know very few college students that actually drink every single day, and have sex every single day, then study for only 2 hours. I do know many that don't study more than 3 hours a day, which is usually not enough, depending on their given field.

I also know people who can run up walls and do back-flips... DO A BACK-FLIP, FOOL!!! IF THEY CAN, YOU CAN!!!

As Redbeard said, if you know the answer to a question it won't matter if there are 50 answers or 3 answers. The difference being it will take longer to narrow down your choices but if you know the answer you won't even have to read the rest of the choices, you just will immediately see the right one jump off the page at you (at least that's how my brain works).

You don't get more than 2-3 hours for most serious tests, and the simple fact that I would EXPECT a prof with tendencies like this one, to sneak in obscure mind games within those 10, 50, or 100 different options; is more than enough for one to be wary of such methods of testing.

If they were worded in such a way as for there to be more than one possible answer I could see it being douchey but until a copy of the test goes up for the world to see so we can see for ourselves what kind of test it was we only have her word and the students, and as quoted earlier by one student of hers I'm more inclined to think these kids expected an easy A and now need to whine because they can't be bothered to actually study or attend class.

This isn't about an easy 'A' grade, it is about simply passing a required class. A comfortable and achievable goal for most classes should be a 'B' grade, but from the sound of it, aside any double curve-based grading system that has not been completely explained to us via the article, you would have a hard time working your ass off for a 'C' grade. Any student not focusing on the sciences will have a hard time, while ones who are 'science-ready', can enter the class for an achievable 'A', further extending the curve for the rest of the class.

Whiny, lazy students = fail students, not fail teacher.

Yes, yes... I understand that Profs and Teachers are rarely put on the spot for actually doing their jobs...

Wrexasaur wrote:

Fateweaver wrote:On the other hand Wrex you have single moms/dads going to school full time who are able to pass their classes and find time to study on top of raising kids and being a parent.

Sure the kids might be in daycare or with a sitter part or most of a day but most college students don't spend 12 hours a day studying/doing homework. I'd guess about 8 hours a day drinking, 2 hours getting laid and or puking and then 2 hours doing homework and studying and then wondering why they can't pass a certain class (or don't graduate at all).

This is a pretty common strawman, and the actual number of people that succeed at this lifestyle is very limited. You should be able to study 4-8 hours, 6 days a week, without a family to raise, and achieve a comfortable 'B' grade in doing so. With 4-7 classes a week, there are simply limits to the amount of time you can invest in individual classes, and with a family, you will require support on that front to be able to study that vigorously in the first place. Either kids are in daycare due to their parents having the ability to provide it, or Grandma/Auntie takes care of the kids as a part-time job.

I know very few college students that actually drink every single day, and have sex every single day, then study for only 2 hours. I do know many that don't study

I know nurses who were single moms, went to college full time and still found time to pass their classes AND raise a family.

As Redbeard said, if you know the answer to a question it won't matter if there are 50 answers or 3 answers. The difference being it will take longer to narrow down your choices but if you know the answer you won't even have to read the rest of the choices, you just will immediately see the right one jump off the page at you (at least that's how my brain works).

You don't get more than 2-3 hours for most serious tests, and the simple fact that I would EXPECT a prof with tendencies like this one, to sneak in obscure mind games within those 10, 50, or 100 different options; is more than enough for one to be wary of such methods of testing.

If they were worded in such a way as for there to be more than one possible answer I could see it being douchey but until a copy of the test goes up for the world to see so we can see for ourselves what kind of test it was we only have her word and the students, and as quoted earlier by one student of hers I'm more inclined to think these kids expected an easy A and now need to whine because they can't be bothered to actually study or attend class.

This isn't about an easy 'A' grade, it is about simply passing a required class. A comfortable and achievable goal for most classes should be a 'B' grade, but from the sound of it, aside any double curve-based grading system that has not been completely explained to us via the article, you would have a hard time working your ass off for a 'C' grade. Any student not focusing on the sciences will have a hard time, while ones who are 'science-ready', can enter the class for an achievable 'A', further extending the curve for the rest of the class.

Whiny, lazy students = fail students, not fail teacher.

Yes, yes... I understand that Profs and Teachers are rarely put on the spot for actually doing their jobs...

It boils down to how many questions. It sounds like they were pop quiz length (possibly 10-15 questions), not mid-term or finals length. Obviously she wouldn't let the students take the entire hour if she does this every morning as no learning would get done but 10 questions of multiple choice with 10 answers EACH should take no more than 20 minutes. 2 minutes to pick the right answer from 10. Even if you have to stop and think for a little bit 2 minutes should be more than enough per question with only 10 choices.

10 Essay questions in 20 minutes would be a lot harder.

Again, we don't know the test structure and/or how much time she gave. There are douche bag teachers but one student admitted he didn't feel like taking a test every morning for an 8am class. That doesn't sound like a faculty problem to me, more like a student problem.

Wrexasaur wrote:

dogma wrote:I think its also important to note that we don't have enough information to come to a definitive conclusion either way. Without access to the tests in question, there really is no way to determine whether this was a matter of an overzealous professor, a failure of student expectations, or some combination of the two.

Again, this is very important, even though I do have expectations that if we do actually see the tests, it will be clear as day that the Prof was on a personal tangent.

Fateweaver wrote:On the other hand Wrex you have single moms/dads going to school full time who are able to pass their classes and find time to study on top of raising kids and being a parent.

Sure the kids might be in daycare or with a sitter part or most of a day but most college students don't spend 12 hours a day studying/doing homework. I'd guess about 8 hours a day drinking, 2 hours getting laid and or puking and then 2 hours doing homework and studying and then wondering why they can't pass a certain class (or don't graduate at all).

This is a pretty common strawman, and the actual number of people that succeed at this lifestyle is very limited. You should be able to study 4-8 hours, 6 days a week, without a family to raise, and achieve a comfortable 'B' grade in doing so. With 4-7 classes a week, there are simply limits to the amount of time you can invest in individual classes, and with a family, you will require support on that front to be able to study that vigorously in the first place. Either kids are in daycare due to their parents having the ability to provide it, or Grandma/Auntie takes care of the kids as a part-time job.

I know very few college students that actually drink every single day, and have sex every single day, then study for only 2 hours. I do know many that don't study more than 3 hours a day, which is usually not enough, depending on their given field.

I know nurses who were single moms, went to college full time and still found time to pass their classes AND raise a family.

As Redbeard said, if you know the answer to a question it won't matter if there are 50 answers or 3 answers. The difference being it will take longer to narrow down your choices but if you know the answer you won't even have to read the rest of the choices, you just will immediately see the right one jump off the page at you (at least that's how my brain works).

You don't get more than 2-3 hours for most serious tests, and the simple fact that I would EXPECT a prof with tendencies like this one, to sneak in obscure mind games within those 10, 50, or 100 different options; is more than enough for one to be wary of such methods of testing.

If they were worded in such a way as for there to be more than one possible answer I could see it being douchey but until a copy of the test goes up for the world to see so we can see for ourselves what kind of test it was we only have her word and the students, and as quoted earlier by one student of hers I'm more inclined to think these kids expected an easy A and now need to whine because they can't be bothered to actually study or attend class.

This isn't about an easy 'A' grade, it is about simply passing a required class. A comfortable and achievable goal for most classes should be a 'B' grade, but from the sound of it, aside any double curve-based grading system that has not been completely explained to us via the article, you would have a hard time working your ass off for a 'C' grade. Any student not focusing on the sciences will have a hard time, while ones who are 'science-ready', can enter the class for an achievable 'A', further extending the curve for the rest of the class.

Whiny, lazy students = fail students, not fail teacher.

Yes, yes... I understand that Profs and Teachers are rarely put on the spot for actually doing their jobs...

There's probably some blame on both sides. But as Redbeard said, it's EXTREMELY unprofessional to remove a professor halfway through the semester without -- if her allegation is correct -- even discussing it with her. And to do that based on complaints from some first-year students is fairly shocking, really. Either there's some significant information we're lacking, or this dean went way overboard in his actions.

I still would be interested to know if any athletes were in the class. It changes a lot if this professor was about to make someone ineligible. That's a whole 'nuther kind of pressure on the dean at a school like LSU. Although even in that case you'd think the dean would have the conversation first.

FW wrote:Again, we don't know the test structure and/or how much time she gave. There are douche bag teachers but one student admitted he didn't feel like taking a test every morning for an 8am class. That doesn't sound like a faculty problem to me, more like a student problem.

Well... 8 AM is early...

I assume that out of a class that could very well number in the hundreds, this individual could only be described as anecdotal evidence. There is one of these students in every single class I have attended, for my entire life. I have also attended many classes that simply do not provide enough time for all material to be covered in full. Add in a disorganized Prof, and you got a lot of studying to do, in order to keep pace with the curve.

I do not promote skipping mini-tests (quizzes, whatever you want to call them), but I also can't rule out that individual student actually having run the stats on that invested time. Should he have done the reading, bit his lip, and just done the tests? Probably. Is it likely that he is a bad student? Exceedingly so. Mini-tests are usually no more than 10% of your grade, and during midterms, investing time intelligently is key to success. Focusing so heavily on such a small portion of your grades can be a very bad idea.

Again, 5-7 classes is a massive work-load, and no individual class can really stand out as that much more important than another; at least in terms of your GPA.

Which of the following is True:
a) Ultramarines are blue colored
b) Dark Angels are bone colored
c) Blood Angels are red colored
d) All of the above
e) None of the above
f) A and B, but not C
g) A and C, but not B
h) B and C, but not A
i) A and C, but sometimes B
j) Always A, and sometimes B and C

pombe wrote:Which of the following is True:
a) Ultramarines are blue colored
b) Dark Angels are bone colored
c) Blood Angels are red colored
d) All of the above
e) None of the above
f) A and B, but not C
g) A and C, but not B
h) B and C, but not A
i) A and C, but sometimes B
j) Always A, and sometimes B and C

Oh I know! K Did I get it right?

L) Beer

Actually I phrased the question wrong:

It should have read "Which of the following statements is most true".

In any case, acceptable answers would have been:

1) Why not?
2) 42

HEHE... Ok lets look at the classic "curve" grading method....

Highest is auotmatic pass, lowest is a definite Fail.
Now AVERAGE the scores.
Plot the center as a "C"
Now Plot the Mean, or the center of the "C" line.
Where it crosses the Curve above "C" is a "B", Where it crosses below "C" its a "D".

One extraordinary student can destroy the curve for the "average" students. If, say, that one student scores only 10 points better than the next lowest it can affect where the "B" and "D" fall. especially if the lowest misses by less than 10 points.

Face it if you are taking Bio for non sci majors then you are probably there to party. Most likely a football player or an arts major. suck it up and do the work.

helgrenze wrote:
Face it if you are taking Bio for non sci majors then you are probably there to party. Most likely a football player or an arts major. suck it up and do the work.

Or any other freeking field besides medicine, which is, er, all of them.

Curves is the stupidest grading scale ever invented.

If a course has a possible 100 pts than break it down.

I went to school with one girl who did extra credit and had a 4.0 in the class so she was actually closer to a 5.0. It botched the curve so much that the lowest student in the class got a 70%.

On a non-curve 70% is a C. In that class it was a D-. I should have gotten a B+ with an 85% but it ended up being a C+, which lowered my GPA for that class from a 3.0 to a 2.5

Your example used too many numbers. I need cute pics people.

Frazzled wrote:

helgrenze wrote:
Face it if you are taking Bio for non sci majors then you are probably there to party. Most likely a football player or an arts major. suck it up and do the work.

Or any other freeking field besides medicine, which is, er, all of them.

I am working towards a degree in Landscape Architecture, and I have literally NO NEED WHATSOEVER, for knowledge pertaining to several science fields. I also have experience in the field, and as a contractor, I have to cope with reality. If a client wants to know about geology, or something even more ridiculous... like, say... Soil sciences/Botany (two ENTIRELY different professional fields... FFS!!!)... I would have to stop myself from laughing in their faces, handing them 3 textbooks, and telling them to have fun studying.

Why would anyone feel the need to ask a designer, about how their tomatoes 'work', on top of hinging response to bids on a job. Because they are freaking silly, that's why.

Frazzled wrote:Your example used too many numbers. I need cute pics people.

Dude can you come look at my yard? The wild pumpkin plant is starting up again, and another weed tried to eat me last weekend.

Actually, a true bell curve would take into account only 2 values:

1) the mean
2) the standard deviation

The mean would set the C.

The standard deviation would set the boundaries for A/B, B/C, C/D, D/F.

If you are above 2 standard deviations from the mean, you get an A. If you are above the mean by 1 standard deviation, you get a B.

The funny exams are when the curve is bimodal...meaning that the shape of the curve isn't a single bell shape, but has two bells.

Of course, most professors are kind enough to consider the mean the boundary between a B and a C, which raises the average grade of the course.

I know for a fact that most professors shoot for an average grade between 3.2 and 2.5 (A being 4, B being 3, C being 2, D being 1) for the course at the end, which varies on how smart that particular class is.

Frazzled wrote:Dude can you come look at my yard? The wild pumpkin plant is starting up again, and another weed tried to eat me last weekend.

You called for a landscape maintenance team? One many army, we kill weeds.

I bet that professor's rating at www.ratemyprofessors.com nosedived after that fiasco. She definitely seemed like one of those psycho hardass types which is understandable since she's an ancient academic that hadn't taught an introductory course in 15 years; and this was one intended for non-sci majors to boot so she seems out of touch or "a fish out of water" if you will.

She also seems the type to add a bunch extra points due to attendance, improvement, or something entirely intangible to boost the final grade however even after the first test it seemed some could at best only reach a 'D'. Also having a 90% failure/drop rate is simply an inexcusable statistic to have in such a course. In just about any other job you'd be fired for such poor performance and teaching is no exception imo.

Also seemed like an instance of "the straw that broke the camel's back" since she wasn't made aware of the situation behind the scenes.

Recommending study groups for a beginner's level bio class for non-sci majors? That alone seems like a bad enough sign

Biology for non-majors means "Biology for those who need to know something about bio, but aren't pre-Med". As an Engineer, I took the Chem version for non-majors, along with the rest of the Engineers. This keeps the pre-Med stuff from being affected one way or the other.

90% failing? Perhaps something's not right, even if it's Louisiana State.

There's a balance to be had, and it's too bad nobody bothered to speak with her about what that balance should be. Also, nothing wrong with assigning grades on a curve for this kind of thing. For every 10 students, just sort them:
1 A
5 B
3 C
1 D (or Fail, if lazy)
Easy!

Fateweaver wrote:Curves is the stupidest grading scale ever invented.

If a course has a possible 100 pts than break it down.

I went to school with one girl who did extra credit and had a 4.0 in the class so she was actually closer to a 5.0. It botched the curve so much that the lowest student in the class got a 70%.

On a non-curve 70% is a C. In that class it was a D-. I should have gotten a B+ with an 85% but it ended up being a C+, which lowered my GPA for that class from a 3.0 to a 2.5

5.0 GPAs are imaginary figures that individuals use to sell themselves on the college market. They are an unnecessary boost for people that have means beyond others in their class, to succeed in academia.

On a scale of (F/d)1-4(A), there is no fifth degree. You fail on a 1, pass on a 2, do well on a 3, and are extremely successful, within the class on a 4. There is no 5 on this scale, and it annoys me that there is actual value in an imaginary investment. Within a single class, 5.0 means to me, that the person is the teachers assistant, and should not be treated as an obstacle to the rest of the class.

The bag of rice is one pound, you can buy portions of a single bag, but only in increments of 4. If you want more than 4 parts, buy a second set from the next bag of rice, and leave the rest of the damn class the feth alone.

JohnHwangDD wrote:
1 D (or Fail, if lazy)

There's not much of a difference between a D and an F at most schools. In general, D's do not grant credit towards anything except graduation. They also, frequently, count for 0 quality points.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Fateweaver wrote:Curves is the stupidest grading scale ever invented.

It depends on the class. If the class is a hard science, then curve systems can be a good way of checking instructor's ability. If you're teaching an essay course, which depends more on internal consistency and citation record than numerical accuracy, then a curve is a poor choice as the students' grades are not tied to a central criterion.

dogma wrote:There's not much of a difference between a D and an F at most schools. In general, D's do not grant credit towards anything except graduation. They also, frequently, count for 0 quality points.

Ds are the teachers way of saying, "Well you did try, right?".

On a personal level it can mean something, perhaps retaking the course with the teacher 'knowing' that you invest heavily to do so, but it doesn't mean squat towards your GPA. It is opinion based nonsense though, and if you fail, take it again, transfer to another course, or simply invest the time if possible to not fail in the future.

The biggest difference is that a D is a 1.0, while an F is a 0.

Unless your school is really hardcore, then D's are a 0, and F's are a -1.0. I only know of 3 schools that do that, though, and they're all combined BA/MA programs.

If I were to transfer, and questions were asked about a D, I would prefer to answer, "Why did you get an F?". A much more flexible response can be had for an F, and I am simply talking human interaction here. One F is bad, but understandable, multiple Ds is just too many factors to explain. You were obviously attending the class, what impeded you from achieving a flat 'C'? Besides... F reads fail clearly, as such can be explained with relative ease from the side of the student (damage control, eh? ), while a D would speak to me as a half-assed attempt at failing, instead of being flexible means of accomplishing other, more important goals.

Jump to reach the hoop, failing is complicated, being successful is simple.

The number of multiple choice answers are irrelevant. No one would be complaining if they were simple answer tests with no choices given at all, and those are far harder than any number of multiple choices. The issue is the content of the questions and whether they were too advanced for the curriculum and student body to handle. Given that the teacher had previously been teaching upper level education classes to seniors or graduate students it would pretty heavily imply a loss of perspective as to the capabilities of non science major students in an introductory courses. 90% dropped out or failing is unacceptable and it either speaks to an incapable teacher, poor method, or administrative error in calculating grades. My assumption is that the course was simply too difficult as presented for the student body to handle.

Perhaps it's a bit of both. Maybe the teacher was more used to working with upper-classmen. But, maybe also, the entry level, non-science-major students had absolutely no idea how much work is expected in college-level science classes, didn't put the required effort in, and got poor grades as a result.

Knowing many college students and teachers, I simply cannot believe that the teacher is so out-of-touch that this is all her fault.

Example: My (evil) step-mother is a math professor at the Illinois Institute of Technology, which is primarily an engineering and architecture school. This last semester she was teaching an intro-level math class called college algebra for business majors. Over dinner the other night she was lamenting how completely unprepared freshmen college students have become in the last few years and told us how she asked a simple question about interest on a recent test, if you invested $100 at 6% interest for a year, how much would you have at the end of the year. (The answer, using simple interest, is $106, BTW). She had students coming up with answers in the millions of dollar range.

The high school education in this country has gotten so bad that freshmen heading to college are frequently out of their depth, especially in the maths and sciences. I don't believe that college level classes should be called upon to lower their standards, punishing the students who didn't sleep through high school, in order to make up for this.