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speaking of trolling...

[Mod Edit - No Pics with Profanity in Them!]

Cool story bro.

theHandofGork wrote:Karon wins.

CptZach wrote:It feels like GW games have long been dominated by the Hobbyist-at-all-costs gamers.

When playing against them, unless you have sunk hundreds of hours into painting/converting your models you always feel like the jerk.

For those of us that either have no talent when it comes to artsy stuff or would just rather focus on the game at hand, we are always made out to be the jerk by the HAAC gamer.

I've actually had people get mad at me because I either own all the different army books or have them memorized. The same goes for when you make a quality and balanced list that includes no fluff. They complain about that as well. (psh vulkan and shrike in the same army? Cheese!)

They also seem to always get on the poor gamers. You know the ones I mean. The ones that can afford one army, paint it ultramarine blue and then use it as space wolves. I have actually watched as HAAC gamers throw a fit and refuse to play said person.

Does anyone else have a bunch of HAAC gamers at their store and how do you deal with them?

What game are you playing? It sure isn't Warhammer Fantasy or 40K.

When you roll in with something like this- " I've actually had people get mad at me because I either own all the different army books or have them memorized. The same goes for when you make a quality and balanced list that includes no fluff. They complain about that as well. (psh vulkan and shrike in the same army? Cheese!)..."

I really do not believe that your issue are with the hobby aspect.

Point 1.- no one likes a smart . Even if you think that you know it all, it really does not matter if you think you have memorized all the rules, know each and every aspect of your army, or THINK that you have a be all end all army list that is supposed to take on all comers. You have even with this statement shown that you come off to people as a tool. These games are social games, it isn't about being a know it all, its about YOU giving yourself the opening to be labled a tool, and guess what? You are going to get labled a tool based solely on your attitude, not anything to do with hobby skills.

For the second point.- Your post here is pure fail. Even if you think that you are unjustly being accused of being a ... whatever kind of player you think you are... The fact of the matter, and the meat of the issue here is that it is about you thinking that there is something other then a basic, no frills game here.

The third point here is that the game is anything you want it to be, you can paint them, or not, model out what you want, and even if it is halfway decent, people usually, like 9 times out of 10, give it a pass. All they are really interested in at the end of the day is a good game.

If you don't want to be a hobbist, you really don't have to, BUT, you had better bring something to the table to justify putting up with the attitude. I've seen people with that know it all attitude, even with a halfway decently looking army get drummed out of the game store group for the outright issue of being a world class douche.

You only have a few hours to play. Would you rather have a good time, or one that after the fact you tell yourself, "That game store, group, individual was a douche, why should I tolerate them treating me like gak and powergaming themselves a win?"

Man I hate haters that hate. This is a hobby. Whatever aspect you like don't hate on others for liking another. I personally like it all (though I enjoy painting/modelling slightly more than the game). And if people are total jerks about it refuse to play. I'm sure there are many others who would be quite tolerant.

(restating points that were already said? You bet! CrazyThang AWAY!!)

CrazyThang wrote:Man I hate haters that hate.

I think my brain just exploded.

Hellfury wrote:

CrazyThang wrote:Man I hate haters that hate.

I think my brain just exploded.

Then my job here is done. *dusts hands off*

I paint stuff way more than I play, but I tend to play against a lot of folks who have barely panted armies and know more of the rules than I ever will. All of them are nice folks and even when I get my but kicked, the game is still fun. I'm in the hobby cuz I like to build and paint models and even though thats the fun I get from it, I'd never in a bajillion years tell someone they're doing it wrong for not painting or whatever. On the other hand, if someone got on my case for painting instead of making an abusing army to wipe someone in 2 turns, I'd probably never ever play them again.

#1 rule for any game should be "Don't be a dick"

Necros wrote:#1 rule for any game should be "Don't be a dick"

I want to tackle then tattoo that on every A$$hole's forehead that has to be TFG.

You can tell the difference between someone having a rough time and kinda being cranky, and a guy that is just a full blown Fooktard.

warboss wrote:as a HAAC gamer myself, i take offense at your statement. even if you don't have the time or backbone to properly paint your models, there are alternatives that can sway a HAAC to play you anyways. all you must do is show your dedication to the non-game aspects of the game in some fashion. perhaps a reading of imperial missionary poetry.... a tableside interpretive dance in the harlequin tradition.... or simply a sacrifice to chaos of one of your models (either destroyed permanently by flame or mallet at the altar/tabletop or simply given to the HAAC gamer). we're really quite reasonable as you can see. you just have to make the effort.

Hahahaha, that was brilliant!

It all boils down to two groups. The group that enjoys the painting/modeling more than the game (Group Hobby) and the group that enjoys the game more than the painting/modeling (Group game). Eventually every FLGS's community becomes dominated by one or the other.

And the two groups do have different opinions on how the game should be played. The Hobby people when they play games they play games with "Cool models/units" regardless of how well the unit actually performs. (IG stormtroopers, SM Vanguard, etc) While the Game people would usually never field an army with these overcosted under performing units, as well as the game crowd in most cases are just better tacticians, since they tend to usually play more and play with the mindset of getting better as well as enjoying the game.

Issues arise when these two mindsets play a game together. The Hobby crowd tends to toss words around like "powergamer" or "Cheese" as a means of justifying why they lost. While the game crowd has no idea why someone has taken such offense to losing at a game. For both groups they have the most fun playing against people who think like they do, The Hobby crowd playing against each other have the most fun, while the Gamer crowd playing against other gamers have the most fun.

I will not lie I fall into the more game oriented aspect. Does this mean my army isn't painted? No it does not, as a matter of fact I have a DKoK army with 2.5K of it painted. It just means that I want a different thing from the game, I want a game, I paint at home alone in my well lit studio. And go to game stores looking to play games and do a little hanging out.

I don't see why one polarised group or another has to dominate the local scene.

When I was in a club, we all enjoyed playing, and we played with painted armies and terrain.

Maybe it is a difference between GW users and other wargamers.

HI KillKrazy.
Probably 'TTMG' gamers that are not 'GW restricted' see the TTMG hobby in a similar way.A hobby that consists of creativity and personal expression in a socialy pre defined defined way.
(Many wargamers dont use minatures or 3D playing areas.Only 'table top minature games' players do. )

As GW plc is a '...minatures company first and formost...' thier salesmen will agree with whatever the customers idealised view of the 'GW Hobby' (tm) is.
As GW plc '...is in the buisness of selling toy sodiers to kiddies...'

Those gamers who prefer playing to painting can choose from loads of non minature wargames.
Or smaller scale minatures.(2mm,6mm,and10mm,) that dont have to be so well painted.
Or pick skirmish games with fewer models to paint up.
They have the choice of rule set developed for ballanced competative play, or historical narrative campains.

Unfortunatley GW plc doesnt promote this chioce of game any more...

There are a huge amount of minature manufactureres that can provide a wide range of minatures to make your collection /army totaly unique.
And a wide range of hobby suplies and hobby materials , not to mention reference sources.
So the creative types have free range of material and meduim to choose from.

GW have a limited range of overpriced hobby supplies.

GW plc covers a tiny percentage of the wargames hobby.But has a disproportionatly large amount of customers.

Rather than be overtly honest about its products and development goals, GW plc pretends it products are suitable for all types of gamer and hobbiest, to maximise its sales potential.

The wider wargaming hobby has far more chioce and diversity, whare most gamers and hobbiests can find something far closer to thier ideal,so like minded people collect around similar systems. This is why the disjiont in GW plc customer views are so strong, IMO.

Red_Lives wrote:It all boils down to two groups. The group that enjoys the painting/modeling more than the game (Group Hobby) and the group that enjoys the game more than the painting/modeling (Group game). Eventually every FLGS's community becomes dominated by one or the other.

And the two groups do have different opinions on how the game should be played. The Hobby people when they play games they play games with "Cool models/units" regardless of how well the unit actually performs. (IG stormtroopers, SM Vanguard, etc) While the Game people would usually never field an army with these overcosted under performing units, as well as the game crowd in most cases are just better tacticians, since they tend to usually play more and play with the mindset of getting better as well as enjoying the game.

Issues arise when these two mindsets play a game together. The Hobby crowd tends to toss words around like "powergamer" or "Cheese" as a means of justifying why they lost. While the game crowd has no idea why someone has taken such offense to losing at a game. For both groups they have the most fun playing against people who think like they do, The Hobby crowd playing against each other have the most fun, while the Gamer crowd playing against other gamers have the most fun.

I will not lie I fall into the more game oriented aspect. Does this mean my army isn't painted? No it does not, as a matter of fact I have a DKoK army with 2.5K of it painted. It just means that I want a different thing from the game, I want a game, I paint at home alone in my well lit studio. And go to game stores looking to play games and do a little hanging out.

I think that is far too general. I like painting/modelling more but I'm not going to bring an army made of fail just because it looks cool. I enjoy the game almost as much as the hobby. Maybe you should add a third group: Hobby-Gamers

So, whats the middle option?

We have hobbyist at all cost and win at all cost so far.



I do run a semi-competative army, but also take units that have no current model since i get the fun of converting them.

There is no middle ground. That's the beauty of the system, the categories of competitor and hobbyist are so vague and subject to opinion that you can broadly paint anybody meet as one or the other. It's so simple, instead of actually getting to know someone I can instantly classify them and treat them accordingly to that stereotype.

avantgarde wrote:There is no middle ground. That's the beauty of the system, the categories of competitor and hobbyist are so vague and subject to opinion that you can broadly paint anybody meet as one or the other. It's so simple, instead of actually getting to know someone I can instantly classify them and treat them accordingly to that stereotype.

I believe you may be right! Snap judgements for all!

You misunderstood what I was saying. Think of it as a % system. I'm 60% game 40% hobby, I'm not saying I don't enjoy the hobby, if that was the case I would just play Video games. If the Hobby wasn't I part of it I wouldn't play warhammer. But I do Enjoy the game aspect more than the hobby. If that makes since.

lol....i just love those photos quote thingys...or whatever they are. where do you guys find these?

DarthSpader wrote:lol....i just love those photos quote thingys...or whatever they are. where do you guys find these?

google image searches or personal picture collections.

Some are already made, and some these guys make with a photo editor.

Do a google image search for 40k motivational posters sometime.

Last I check we are all people who push around plastic models and roll dice. Most of us have problem screamed a Waagh at some point in our lives, and declared a random innocent bystander a heretic for no darn good reason... ok so may that last one was just me screaming heretic a dauche in a bar.

Back on topic: I have probably 90% of the models I own painted. But do not care about playing against unpainted models. If someone is "poor" and they don't have the funds for the games am I going to complain their space wolves are blue, red, green? No, they are still power armored, and as long as the tell me I don't really care.

I think there is also a firm difference in running the same unpainted models over and over again for years without even attempting to paint. I have friends who refuse to paint. They have what I consider good reason.
1. time consuming lives with familes, kids, and are happy to throw some dice.
2. they've tried, they suck at it, really tried, and just stopped caring because they don't want to goto tournments.
3. just lazy.

Those guys in #3, they even make fun of themselves, their awesome gamers, but they are just not interested. Point is, some people don't paint, but want to play. I'm all about that because maybe they bring a friend along who on the flip, hates to play, but likes painting. Its a give and take hobby, be happy you've got one.

I fully support this thread derailing into cute asian chicks.

Jesus, to think people argue over this as if it is even slightly important lol. Hobbyist or gamer, both are likely to get you wedgied by the rest of normal society, the enemy of my enemy is my friend! lol. Seriously, I don't tell my friends about my hobbying, not because I'm ashamed or intimidated, I just know it isn't their thing and I don't really feel the need to share with non-fans, I do it for my own enjoyment and that's pretty much it.

Considering the game can be played with just the rulebook, and, well, ANYTHING to represent the models, being a model painted Nazi is kind of slowed. GW encourages that attitude because it sells models and paints, so no surprise it is out there. Just realize you are being a sheep follower if you subscribe to it blindly and unbendingly.

On the other hand, since I am a hobbyist and not a gamer, there is a certain amount of satisfaction to be taken in seeing two finely painted armies squaring off against each other. It is also an oppurtunity to open discussions and bonding with like-minded people. Kind of sucks to get all dressed up for prom and put tons of work into your tux and all, only to show up and your date is wearing a track suit with ketchup stains lol.

In the end though, both types should just deal with the other point of view, so long as whatever non-HAAC models are present don't confuse the hell out of everyone and create a dragging, annoying game. 'No no, the bazooka joe wrapper is a devastator with a plasma cannon! The coke bottle cap is the missile launcher guy! No remember??? The striking scorpions are my zoanthropes, the dire avenger is a pyrovore, but the banshee is a pyrovore too but that was has a biomorph!'

Um - no.

On the other hand, if some kid was trying to use a few UM assault marines to fill out his BA army, and some pimply basement dwelling 30 year old who last had a tan in 1993 gave him crap for having 2 diff chapters on the table in the same army, I would advise the kid to kick said basement dweller square in the junk.

I tend towards the hobby side myself but the only thing I find irritating is bringing a win-at-all-costs army to a friendly game. If a new guy comes up with 2 LR's, dread, and a Pred... cmon now. I prolly wouldnt do or say anything beyond looking at them funny but I mean... really? That or quickly rearrange my list to be melta-heavy and charge at him with fingers crossed.

In regards to painting or proxying I dont care much as long as it doesnt keep changing as to what the proxy is. My friend proxied his Dark Angels for Daemons once and there werent any problems. Though I did feel that since Azrael was a daemon prince that my captain should have twin pistols. If the army is unpainted, kewl, if you're proxying a pvc pipe as a drop pod, fine, etc.

In the end as long as everyone is friendly and we can all agree to go get lunch somewhere and sit at the same table all is well.

What was this thread about again? I was too busy laughing at the demotivators.

Ah, wait, I remember. OP, I'm afraid I disagree with your view completely, for the reasons everyone else has already stated. Good day to you, sir.

This thread raises an interesting point.

If someone has a good point, are they really a "troll"? A lot of people seem to interpret a "troll" as "someone I disagree with".

Anyway, I think the problem with the game as a whole is the fact that there are two aspects that appeal to people: the game itself, and the fluff aspects. If the person on the other side of the table doesn't have the same view about the game as you do, there's going to be some awkwardness either way.

I will say this, however. HAAC players are far, far more vocal about WAAC players than the opposite, and yet they're the ones I always hear complaining about their views on the game not getting respected by their opponents.

I think HAAC players tend to forget that, at its core, wargames are games. Games with objective classifications for winners and losers. This makes them inherently competitive, and nobody likes to lose - otherwise, why complain? It's a far more reasonable default position to want to win at a game, and let's be honest: it takes a lot less effort to become a good player than it does to have a well-painted army. You can't hold it against players for wanting to win a game.

And looking down upon WAAC players is kind of silly. How is their interpretation of what makes the game fun any less valid than yours? Their position on the game is the logical default, whereas a hobbyist gets more enjoyment from aspects that have rather little to do with the game itself.

The threads about cute asian school chicks, now. They WAAC.

Grot 6 wrote:The threads about cute asian school chicks, now. They WAAC.

Anime chicks =/= asian chicks, Grot - real people only

Grot 6 wrote:The threads about cute asian school chicks, now. They WAAC.

What? if that were the case i would probably be following this.... you sir, are mistaken.

Varieties of -AAC gamers.
Buy at all cost
Lose at all cost
Rage at all cost
Eat at all cost
Swear at all cost...
And the list goes on.