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Nice Batrep DoP- good pics too

I'm going to stick my nose in other people problem.
1) Don't hand out congratualtions for people saying they have friends it really make it sound like you belive being likeable enough to have a friend is an acivment - poor reflection on your psyche
2) Unless he was: Eating the young, maiming the women and flinging poop. He wasn't really acting like an arged baboon - something that is actually quite scary~! So let us dispense with the animal comparisions? Or do you mean to say he scared you as much as an enraged baboon?

Polonius wrote:The thing is, there are a lot of great 40k players, and none seem to attract the vitriol you do (except Stelek, who actively seeks it out).

Aww, come on now. I do make an effort!

All kidding aside, great Batrep dash. Shame about not winning round 3 :(

Good Batrep as always, Dash. Florida seemed to give you a healthy homecoming, yeh? Hot as hell with humidity to boot, that's how we play down here. Good stuff though especially against Vulkan.

Great batreps DoP. I enjoy reading them.

You ork army lists/batreps has helped me help a friend with his orks.

Its easy to come off as arrogant/rude when you correct another person's errors - no one likes being wrong. The fact that they can't get passed it says much more about them than you. I think you should just report and ignore any people who want to cause conflict/drama over internets, and just privately offer to discuss the problem over a beer with the individuals involved. Internets are terrible places for resolving real-word conflicts.

I look forward to your next entry detailing your defeat. May it be as glorious as your victories

LordWaffles wrote:You say extremes like I'm trying to troll you, not to point the finger but you glaze over a few important details that might have caused such idle internet goers to target you, such as the part where you never asked the TO what to do about the slow player, you specifically demanded the TO to DQ the sisters player for intentionally being slow. In all the time I've known that guy he just plays deliberately, slow and purposeful even if it's to his disadvantage.

I have bad news for you, Dash was right.

A tournament is a timed event, it is not for the slow. If he has to think a while and he is a slow player fine! More power to him, but he should not be playing in a tournament. A game of 40k last for 5-7 turns and if my opponent is moving slow, darn right I am lighting a fire under his rear. If he can only get to turn 3 or 4 then tournament play is not for him and he should just play in friendly games.

If he was moving as slow as Dash is saying, and he could not get him to play faster, then he would not be out of line to ask the TO to vacate the results do to slow play.

Heck, the TO should remove him from the tournament because he is causing people to not finish games and ruin their tournament experience.

Thanks for these reprots Dash, yet again they are brilliant.

Dashofpepper wrote:Stick around?

I'm from Michigan. That humidity was mind-boggling. Sweat was pouring off me in sheets. I went through 2 gallons of gatorade while I was there.

No offense dude, but you're boned if you're moving down here. I was in Jax this weekend visiting a gaming buddy of mine (boardgames/cards) and it was hot, but not all that bad for Florida (it's only June, after all). It gets so much worse...

Last night I worked in a 113.5 degree kitchen. I'm clearly the best man in this thread *flexes biceps*

DiscipleofYawgmoth wrote:Good Batrep as always, Dash. Florida seemed to give you a healthy homecoming, yeh? Hot as hell with humidity to boot, that's how we play down here. Good stuff though especially against Vulkan.

The winner of the tournament that I played against in the semi-finals Curtis Hotaling was from Gainesville - Vorpal Games or something? I asked him if he knew a guy who was a 911 dispatcher (I don't know your real name ) but he didn't.

Mark/Waffles: While you have a wonderful imagination, the reality is that I stepped outside to the TO and said, "Mike, I'm playing XXXX. We're on turn2, and its taking him forever to do; what happens if we don't get through the game? I don't want to get slow-played out of finishing." And he said, "He's a little slow mentally, he's not doing it on purpose, you just need to put up with it." And you said, "He plays that slow against everyone." There wasn't anything about DQs or rants, or screaming, or the other wonderful imagery that you provide us.

But again - please take this conversation to the battle report ABOUT that game: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/298838.page

Its a better outlet for you.


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Lorek wrote:

Dashofpepper wrote:Stick around?

I'm from Michigan. That humidity was mind-boggling. Sweat was pouring off me in sheets. I went through 2 gallons of gatorade while I was there.

No offense dude, but you're boned if you're moving down here. I was in Jax this weekend visiting a gaming buddy of mine (boardgames/cards) and it was hot, but not all that bad for Florida (it's only June, after all). It gets so much worse...

I lived in Florida before moving to NC, and it normally isn't that bad; this past weekend went on record as the hottest weekend since 2002. So its not that common!

Dashofpepper wrote:I lived in Florida before moving to NC, and it normally isn't that bad; this past weekend went on record as the hottest weekend since 2002. So its not that common!

I will admit that I do live a bit further south, but I lived in Gainesville (about 70 miles away) for 14 years, and it seemed normal to me. My friend who lives in Jax was also grousing about it a bit, so maybe I've just acclimated.

Dash this is supposed to be a record breaking hot summer here in Florida. People are going to sweat like pigs.

G

I actually like reading your battle reports, though you do come across as arrogant.

I probably would be too if I played orks. I consider myself a good player, but....I'm using the CSM codex, so I'm kind of handicapped from being a REAL good player. Soon I hope...soon...

That being said though you aren't MEAN about anything. "Look, a battle report where I won. I won because I did this, this, and this that were right. I capitalized on this, this, and this that he did wrong."

To the veteran player, it stops there - you went into detail about his mistakes, your capitalization on them, and the inevitable outcome. To a new player, it seems more like "hahaha he sucks and look at how awesome I am!" because they don't know WHY or HOW each of those elements of each of your reports is important. I learn something every time I read your battle reports.

On a side note, I think that player should consider dropping a squad somewhere for a dreadnought in a drop pod - a rifleman dread dropping WAY off to the side to get side shots on your battlewagons would be nice. And good god, people need to learn to pop that burna battlewagon QUICKLY!

One thing I wish I had in the chaos codex: The ability to take a multiple-doomsiren unit of anything. I love cruising in rhinos and smashing marines with them, but being able to take even two would be spectacular.

I met Dash for the first time at this tournament. While I didn't talk to him at length, he seemed like a nice guy to me. Great Batreps Dash. You missed the interesting end of the day...LOL.

CaptKaruthors wrote:I met Dash for the first time at this tournament. While I didn't talk to him at length, he seemed like a nice guy to me. Great Batreps Dash. You missed the interesting end of the day...LOL.

What happened at the end? Seemed like everyone had nice, quiet games for the most part. Mine were fun, uneventful and my opponents were great (if disappointed - Austin got understandably demoralized turn2). Tony and David both said that they were surprised by the lack of drama after the stupidity on the website where they were answering FAQ questions.

Polonius wrote:The thing is, there are a lot of great 40k players, and none seem to attract the vitriol you do (except Stelek, who actively seeks it out). Even if you're not doing anything wrong, you may be doing something incorrect. I don't know what you should do, but something is clearly rubbing a lot of people the wrong way.

This is part of something I just wrote in a private message to someone on the wrecking crew forums, and thought I'd copy it here.

I'm blunt and I'm honest. Not always diplomatic and tactful, but there's already entirely too much pandering to peoples' feelings in the world. People like me or dislike me; there's not much grey territory, and I don't have the patience to coddle people. I think that the nature of the hobby lends itself to people who need to have their feelings coddled, which is unfortunate. Look at the people who play it. There's a lot of insecurity floating around. There's plenty of normal people - emotionally stable, employed, friendly, etc. But there's also a LOT of weirdos. Beard comb-overs, reclusive people, or socially awkward, or emotionally unstable, or passive-aggressive...and if you've been playing 40k at your local store for years, and have a nice little group of friends...maybe you're the local champ, or you feel like you contribute to your gaming circle....and a new guy swirls in, curb-stomps you and your friends quickly and professionally, thanks you for the game, offers some pointers on how you could improve your gameplay....and then swirls back out again, how would you feel? And maybe things settle back down to normal again....you forget about the unpleasant interruption of your normal life. Your store schedules a tournament coming up, and this guy swirls back in, curb-stomps you and your friends again, thanks you for the games, offers a couple more pointers about list types, or tactics, and swirls back out again.

Some people will have their curiosity piqued; there's a higher level of gameplay and tactical elements beyond rolling dice and moving figures that they hadn't considered before. They'd like to improve themselves and step it up notch because they're naturally competitive or inclined to better themselves. Other people will be offended because their status quo was just disrupted. Too much of western humanity is stagnant and despises change. Its a problem in education, business - no surprise that it should extend into peoples' hobby. That's why I offend people; I represent change and a violation of their status quo. They don't want to change, they don't want their gaming circle disrupted, they don't want outsiders creating a stir in their status quo. I've been banned from two stores now (and there's a third where I choose not to game at because the core gamers there (beardy combovers) are jerks, and while both of those stores give different answers for why I've been banned they both come down to the same thing: I disrupted the status quo.

Mind Games in Greenville, NC: After 6 months of attending their tournaments and winning them all....usually being matched up against their local champion in the final round (who was also a store employee) some of the store's customers said that they weren't going to play in the tournament if I was attending because there was no chance of winning. Two of these guys I'd had over to my house repeatedly for gaming, food, booze; I thought one of them was a particularly promising Ork player and I was constantly getting him to think thematically and in terms of overall ork strategy. We'd play a game, I'd beat him and say, "Why don't you try XXXX? Have you thought about XXXX? This XXXXX works really well for me, and you should do it." He felt that was condescending and decided not to be friends anymore. The store's tournaments are all being won by someone who doesn't shop there (C'mon, full retail? With competition 10 minutes away that charges 20% under retail?), their presence is pushing paying customers out of the store tournaments.....well, they made a financially sound if immoral decision. I disrupted their status quo and the change wasn't met warmly.

All Fun and Games in Apex, NC: I've been going to tournaments there for a year and a half now. I've won every tournament I've been to there except for one, in which I took second after landing a draw in the first round. Their 40k inventory is tiny, so I don't buy models there, although I have purchased dice, paint, etc from time to time when I stop in. Same story - disrupting the status quo. An outsider is winning all the tournaments and beating on your local players. I tried to befriend some of them, but since I'm rarely in the store (since its not local to me) not so much. Only ever had a single real rules dispute in a game there (involving righteous zeal), and given that I've been traveling around the country and honing my skills to their finest...the lack of skill in the local gamers is telling. I do my best to try helping them improve with suggestions on lists, tactics....stuff like, "If we were to replay this on the spot, if you do X, Y, and Z you will beat me." After tabling all three opponents in the latest tournament, I went over to some of the local gamers (who I thought were acquaintances, loosely moving into the friend category) and said "So when are you guys going to bring some competition?" I prefaced the question with a disclaimer that it was a friendly jest, and thought it might help put some of the guys into a more competitive mindframe. Well, instead of having some friendly competition, I get internet drama accusing me of being a cheating whiney face who rants and screams to get my way. Status quo disruption, followed by rubbing in the face of such disruption with unintended results.

The store I choose not to go to - when I first moved to NC it was going to be our main gaming store. Owner was really nice, gave me the name of the guy heading up their 40k group - I got involved in their challenge ladder (War without End) and was incredibly excited - had some ideas that I e-mailed to the guy running it all, bouncing ideas off of other friends, other folks who have run challenge ladders, trying to bring it back locally to get us a great event going....and the guy sends out a public mail with "Can we buy this a**hole out so he'll stop bugging me?" It went seriously downhill from there with e-drama. Most of the gamers there have never even played me; their hatred is of me is for disrupting the status quo and the subsequent "forum war" that ensued.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There's a lesson to be learned here as I move to a new place and will have to constantly remind myself of - most people are not like me. They do not like ripples in the water, they do not like changes to their status quo, and I'm going to have to try very hard to integrate into the status quo without ripples.

Sorry to have written on for so long, but it was a journey of self-discovery at the end there too.

One point I think you may be missing though Dash...as is especially evident in the first paragraph of your above post....

This game is a SOCIAL hobby. There is no need to pander to peoples feelings...but they're no reason NOT to either.

We're not talking about coddling the WORLD. We're talking about your OPPONENT. One person who you probably SHOULD be polite to.

You get a MUCH better result, in real life AND online, if you can curb stomp fools while still having them laugh and have a great time during your game.

It's part of the WC mantra.

My last game on Vassal was played against a duel lash player that was tabled by turn 5. Him and I were joking with each other even AFTER the game, and this was ONLINE. The place that the slightest omitted smiley can produce a 5 page flamewar.

We play to have a good time, not prove anything, and not just to learn to be better.

Play and have a good time...both of you.

I'm always polite; no question there.


What I mean is this: There's a lot of people out there who think that 40k is about dice rolls. And if they lose a game it was because of the dice. If I steamroll someone and it was because of generalship, not dice...and they say, "What did you think of the game?" there are two approaches:


Coddling: Man, you played incredibly well but the dice just weren't there when you needed them. I had a lot of fun and I think it could have gone either way, but I just got a lot luckier with my dice than you did."

Non-coddling: I think your list has potential, but you made a few grave mistakes. You did X when you probably should have done Y because I then got to exploit Z. If you had just done X instead, I would have been in a tough spot. Also, the thing my list really fears is XXXX, which you don't have any of. XXXX is also good at killing blah blah blah, and you might consider finding a place for them in your list.


One of those was coddling, one of them was constructive criticism. I live for it because you can't improve without it; not everyone does. And around here, there's a lot of criticism without the constructive part.

....also, amongst strangers, after you invade their territory (gamers ARE territorial you know) and win in their tourney.

This is probably not the BEST place to say "when are you guys going to bring some competition." A better statement would be "you guys are some great gamers, I bet if you got out of your local pond more you'd really all be bringing the pain!"

Jesting or not, they dont know you, it makes you look like a gloating ass.

Tactfullness my friend, tactfullness.


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Dashofpepper wrote:

Non-coddling: I think your list has potential, but you made a few grave mistakes. You did X when you probably should have done Y because I then got to exploit Z. If you had just done X instead, I would have been in a tough spot. Also, the thing my list really fears is XXXX, which you don't have any of. XXXX is also good at killing blah blah blah, and you might consider finding a place for them in your list.


One of those was coddling, one of them was constructive criticism. I live for it because you can't improve without it; not everyone does. And around here, there's a lot of criticism without the constructive part.

Some people may not be that interested in improving to your level.

Do you offer this advice after they ask? Or do you simply offer it without any invitation?

...there's a difference you know.




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Dashofpepper wrote:I'm always polite; no question there.

I've met many polite a$$holes in 14 years of tournament 40k gaming.

I agree with Deadshane1's points 1 & 2.

I have never met a 40k-hole that has been polite though, they're either scummy backstabbers, or great guys.

"I forgot my entire shooting, can I take it back?" so I say, "sure!"

I roll for reserves, "Ah crap, is it alright if I roll fortune" "No, it's a tournament, you should have been ready"...

They always seem to be one way or another.

Deadshane1 wrote:I've met many polite a$$holes in 14 years of tournament 40k gaming.

Amen to that.

As a cautionary tale, read what you just wrote and compare it to many of Stelek's rants. You're not there yet, but indifference to the feelings of others is a pretty good way to end up polarizing the community. "blunt and honest" can turn into, or be misread as, rude and crass behavior.

If you don't want to make nice with people, then you simply have to deal with people being upset with you.

Dashofpepper wrote:One of those was coddling, one of them was constructive criticism. I live for it because you can't improve without it; not everyone does. And around here, there's a lot of criticism without the constructive part.

I agree with living for constructive criticism. The only reason why I post my fledgling reports or summaries is to get folks impressions and ideas on how I did.

I prefer to have folks tell me where I screwed up during the game.

Comments on adding something to the list is cool... I am not a fan of the folks who say your list is crap you need this and spout off a completely different list. I am a firm believer in synergies and a combined arms approach to list building. It seems that many of the "cut and paste lists" just spam and do not always have good synergies for a take all comers approach.

Maybe that is the problem is that folks do not consider the players "play style" before they comment on their lists or games. Sure I could run non jump pack infantry in razor backs, however my "play Style" is Fast moving combined arms not stand off shooting so I need comments on how to get the most out of my units and perhaps tweak one or two of them.

great read dash, its a shame that people seam to be hating on you so much, im noticing it more and more. tho I have never met you in person I have played a few Vassel games VS under the same user name wareagle and I have watched allot of your battles aswell. your a great guy so keep up the winning games and having fun man, maybe ill see you around a torminent some day.

lol and people really say you Hack Vassle to win? I remember one of that games i played you with my 9 Dreadnought list , you had terrible luck then. was a fun game even tho I lost

What happened at the end? Seemed like everyone had nice, quiet games for the most part. Mine were fun, uneventful and my opponents were great (if disappointed - Austin got understandably demoralized turn2). Tony and David both said that they were surprised by the lack of drama after the stupidity on the website where they were answering FAQ questions.

PM me.

Welcome back to the armpit of Florida, Dash! I was grilling out in that heat and humidity while you were nice and comfy in 90-degree AC.

Great batrep and since I've no experience regarding that other business, it's impolite for me to comment on it. I will say that I had heard comments from some local players here regarding your reputation, about which I was stunned. On dakka you've presented a friendly, if competitive, attitude.

When are you making the move? Once here are there any plans to join a local club?

I agree with a lot fo what you say in that post Dash. I was playing at a local gaming store and had a similar experience by 'disrupting' the normal dynamic. People liek to guard their little communities against intrustion.

Showing up on someone else's home turf and embaressing them makes enemies.

Edit: Removed some details!

Blackmoor wrote:

LordWaffles wrote:You say extremes like I'm trying to troll you, not to point the finger but you glaze over a few important details that might have caused such idle internet goers to target you, such as the part where you never asked the TO what to do about the slow player, you specifically demanded the TO to DQ the sisters player for intentionally being slow. In all the time I've known that guy he just plays deliberately, slow and purposeful even if it's to his disadvantage.

I have bad news for you, Dash was right.

A tournament is a timed event, it is not for the slow. If he has to think a while and he is a slow player fine! More power to him, but he should not be playing in a tournament. A game of 40k last for 5-7 turns and if my opponent is moving slow, darn right I am lighting a fire under his rear. If he can only get to turn 3 or 4 then tournament play is not for him and he should just play in friendly games.

If he was moving as slow as Dash is saying, and he could not get him to play faster, then he would not be out of line to ask the TO to vacate the results do to slow play.

Heck, the TO should remove him from the tournament because he is causing people to not finish games and ruin their tournament experience.

And what does that do for the tournament-goer who -is- a slow player? Not deliberately, but just happens to think through his moves and move delicately? He's not allowed to go tournaments? What about his tournament experience? He paid just as much as you did for his army, he painted them well, he based them, he flocked them. Sometimes he just has a time deciding what he wants to do. Tournaments aren't for him? The elitism in this post is sickening. The game (even tournaments) are about fun. You don't have fun if you get in 4 turns instead of 6? Saying "are you done yet? are you done with assaults yet?" doesn't help someone who plays slowly or gets flustered. I don't care that the guy was even mentally slow (which Dash pointed out).

Blackmoor wrote:More power to him, but he should not be playing in a tournament.

^^This line is utter bull****. Some players play slower than others. If it is deliberate, then I can see throwing a red flag. But someone that plays slow because they are a slow player or because they are slow mentally and your tournaments aren't for them? Please. Give me a fething break. I think the TO said it right, "That's how he plays. Deal with it."

Isn't the general rule of tournaments to have a tournament basically won by turn 3 anyway? If you play at that pace (and aim for that), then four turns should be enough. I mean, think about the other player and not just yourself for a moment. Maybe instead of getting them kicked out of the tournament, you could try to play against them and then approach them at the end of the event and say, "Hey, I had a good time, but maybe you should try to pick up the pace a bit." Instead of coming onto a forum and saying that "slow players shouldn't be in the tournament scene".

Blackmoor, I enjoy most of your posts (and certainly your batreps), but this was out of line, I think.


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Dashofpepper wrote:I'm always polite; no question there.


What I mean is this: There's a lot of people out there who think that 40k is about dice rolls. And if they lose a game it was because of the dice. If I steamroll someone and it was because of generalship, not dice...and they say, "What did you think of the game?" there are two approaches:


Coddling: Man, you played incredibly well but the dice just weren't there when you needed them. I had a lot of fun and I think it could have gone either way, but I just got a lot luckier with my dice than you did."

Non-coddling: I think your list has potential, but you made a few grave mistakes. You did X when you probably should have done Y because I then got to exploit Z. If you had just done X instead, I would have been in a tough spot. Also, the thing my list really fears is XXXX, which you don't have any of. XXXX is also good at killing blah blah blah, and you might consider finding a place for them in your list.

I think you're also exaggerating a little bit as well. In your coddling example, you're not coddling - you're lying to them. You don't have to lie to coddle someone. You can tell them in a polite manner that they did some things wrong. Then point out what you did wrong (or don't you make mistakes?). Then laugh and expound upon what you'd rather have done when you lost that certain unit. Then finish with a comment about his playstyle. But don't go through a list of what he did wrong and how he could improve it. I'm no psychology major, but I would think that after getting their face beaten in, they don't want to hear about why they suck and how they can not suck by the person that just kicked them out of the tournament. It -does- come across as condescending.

Games are meant to be won by turn 5. Not turn 3. GW designed it that way. If you can't make 5 turns you don't belong in a tournament. Your happiness is no greater than anyone elses and chances are that 1 person cause 3 people to have a worse time than they would have had they gotten a full game.

Full agreement with Blackmoor. If you can't get thru 5 turns tournies aren't for you. Practice, speed up, and come back.

Puma:

I think that if someone for whatever reason isn't capable of finishing a game in any circumstances at one of the bracketed point levels and time allotments that tournaments use, they should recuse themselves from tournament play. Once your actions affect someone else, their work and their money....you no longer have free reign to do anything you want.

This is a great example. 'Ard Boyz gives you 2500 points and 2.5 hours per round. People get through their games. Sometimes not. But by and large the games get finished. At 1500 points and 2.5 hours....if you simply cannot plan, think, or move quickly enough to get through 5-6 turns, you probably shouldn't be competing.

Hulksmash wrote:Games are meant to be won by turn 5. Not turn 3. GW designed it that way. If you can't make 5 turns you don't belong in a tournament. Your happiness is no greater than anyone elses and chances are that 1 person cause 3 people to have a worse time than they would have had they gotten a full game.

Full agreement with Blackmoor. If you can't get thru 5 turns tournies aren't for you. Practice, speed up, and come back.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. I don't think you, me or anyone has any authority to tell another player that they can't enter a tournament. If it was two turns because they spent the entire game moving a green tide, I could understand. But this kid was in the semis, so he had some sort of idea what he was doing.


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Dashofpepper wrote:Puma:

I think that if someone for whatever reason isn't capable of finishing a game in any circumstances at one of the bracketed point levels and time allotments that tournaments use, they should recuse themselves from tournament play. Once your actions affect someone else, their work and their money....you no longer have free reign to do anything you want.

You make it sound like they're walking around the store, lording over people the fact that they take forever to play. Saying something like, "Ah! You'll never win against me! I only make it 3 turns!" But they don't. They simply play slower than other people. Who are you to tell them they're not allowed to play? "How dare them do this to ME!" is what I'm hearing here. Or, you could have the best time that the time allows and move on. It doesn't sound like you have trouble winning tournaments, from your "What should I do with my winnings thread.", so what's the big deal?

It's not that slow players shouldn't be allowed in tournaments, it's that 40K wasn't designed around a time limit.

dashofpepper wrote:This is a great example. 'Ard Boyz gives you 2500 points and 2.5 hours per round. People get through their games. Sometimes not. But by and large the games get finished. At 1500 points and 2.5 hours....if you simply cannot plan, think, or move quickly enough to get through 5-6 turns, you probably shouldn't be competing.

Again, I don't agree. And I've found that games that are smaller sometimes take longer to finish. In my experience (and I'm speaking from the point-of-view that I generally finish games. I can count on one hand the amount of games that didn't get to 5 or more turns) that as the point values get smaller, the more tactics, the more mulling, the more generalship is involved.