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AbaddonFidelis wrote:Puma
The squad gets out. Mephiston gets in. The transport moves. All happens on turn 1.
So...errr.....you're wrong
AF

It doesn't move 18" as was previously mentioned. So...err...you're wrong

As an eldar player can i just say If you place any high threat single model unit on the board it will eat Lascannons (or equivalent). Nothing wrong with that a Wratih lord in cover: it distracts from the rest of my army but then it doesn't cost too much.

Mephiston in a rhino ... well I'll shoot it a little and get him out of it and then shoot him some more (may be next turn if he's far away). He totally stuffed if he ever goes up against a large squad of Boyz, or a blob of IG with a commissar.

Brother-Thunder wrote:I de-mech you turn 1 with 6 meltas in your face. You have no cover.

Mephiston is standing in the middle of a Ass-Squad with priest and gets cover = you lost one unit

I have my assault units in land raiders. I move as fast as you.

Mephi moves 12" AND has fleet, he moves faster than you. Oh, and he can jump over terrain and units, which you can't. And the BA player probably got ways to deal with a LR...

all my shooty units are in transports. You can't easily assault my guys.

Well, AV 11 is not that hard to crack with shooting...

I use a librarian. You can't use your powers half the time.

Too bad he'll be quite close to you already once you got him within your matrix.
In the end all that matters to Mephi is his JP-power, if you're not able to block it you're screwed.

He becomes a walking fire-magnet without cover, only to be assaulted should he get close enough.

You would really assault Mephi? Sounds like a wise plan xD...
And really, I wonder how you would force him to walk alone or outside cover...
In the end all that matters to Mephi is his JP-power, if you're not able to block it you're screwed.

All these counters to Mephiston are perfect because if you run him you dont have any other units whatsoever so its automatically everything vs him. I mean its always an easy pick between shooting mephiston or a storm raven with terminators and a furioso in it, or a land raider filled to the brim with death company and a chaplain.
He is obviously a good unit and worth his points if people have to dedicate time to specifically come up with plans to work around a list that uses him.

Here's a counter to Mephiston, play an all Nurgle chaos daemon army. Land decently far away from him, and bubble wrap in nurglings. Oh you can put out ten strength ten attacks in a round, great! You killed a single base of nurglings and another base is down two wounds from fearless.

Or against plague bearers he'll be facing poisoned attacks and he'll roll ones eventually.

If you hide your tallyman in the back and get some kills eventually Mephiston dies to little nurgling bases.

hahaha are you implying an all nurgle demon army is competitive against anything. I mean sure it might annoy mephiston but wont do squat to the rest of the ba army.

A mostly Nurgle army can be competitive in that if you play it right you'll be very hard to make lose and can contest things well. It's just too bad you can't make MoN Soulgrinders... The list almost certainly won't table you though so you won't win a tourney with a pure Nurgle list

Eidolon wrote:hahaha are you implying an all nurgle demon army is competitive against anything. I mean sure it might annoy mephiston but wont do squat to the rest of the ba army.

I play one against casual opponents and you'd honestly be surprised. My "competitive" list doesn't move too far away from theme and it still does pretty well.

Ive found that lack of speed and solid killiness really hurts nurgle.

The tidbit about your slow army possibly deepstriking even further away form the opponent hurts too You really just have to play the scenario the best you can and take advantage of when your opponent underestimates you.

puma713 wrote:

Brother-Thunder wrote:

I de-mech you turn 1 with 6 meltas in your face. You have no cover.

I have my assault units in land raiders. I move as fast as you.

all my shooty units are in transports. You can't easily assault my guys.

I use a librarian. You can't use your powers half the time.

He becomes a walking fire-magnet without cover, only to be assaulted should he get close enough.

That is how I counter mephiston.

Wow, with everything always working in your favor, you must win all your tournaments.

Loaded dice are nice!!

In actuality, I am saying how all of mephiston's advantages are negated easily when you got the right tools. He is not that threatening when you got the weapons to deal with him.

Ragnar Blackmane wrote:

Brother-Thunder wrote:I de-mech you turn 1 with 6 meltas in your face. You have no cover.

Mephiston is standing in the middle of a Ass-Squad with priest and gets cover = you lost one unit

I have my assault units in land raiders. I move as fast as you.

Mephi moves 12" AND has fleet, he moves faster than you. Oh, and he can jump over terrain and units, which you can't. And the BA player probably got ways to deal with a LR...

all my shooty units are in transports. You can't easily assault my guys.

Well, AV 11 is not that hard to crack with shooting...

I use a librarian. You can't use your powers half the time.

Too bad he'll be quite close to you already once you got him within your matrix.
In the end all that matters to Mephi is his JP-power, if you're not able to block it you're screwed.

He becomes a walking fire-magnet without cover, only to be assaulted should he get close enough.

You would really assault Mephi? Sounds like a wise plan xD...
And really, I wonder how you would force him to walk alone or outside cover...
In the end all that matters to Mephi is his JP-power, if you're not able to block it you're screwed.

I would be more than happy to drop a vindicator template on Meph and the squad he is using as a meatshield.

Fleet will, at max, get 18 inches. A land raider moving 12 and disembarking 2 is 14. He will never be out of assault range unless he got an assault after.

While that is true, smoke helps increase durability.

denying str10 and/or denying rerolls to hit and wound against a squad is always a bonus.

and when it is assault terminators in question, YES, assaulting mephiston is a great idea.

Brother-Thunder wrote:He is not that threatening when you got the weapons to deal with him.

Which include a Lasgun. Having extensive experience running T6 creatures, it's extremely frustrating when the weakest gun in the game is capable of killing you. Even a few rapid fire bolter squads can put some wounds on him.

Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote:

Brother-Thunder wrote:He is not that threatening when you got the weapons to deal with him.

Which include a Lasgun. Having extensive experience running T6 creatures, it's extremely frustrating when the weakest gun in the game is capable of killing you. Even a few rapid fire bolter squads can put some wounds on him.

Well, it is a numbers game, after all.

puma713 wrote:

Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote:

Brother-Thunder wrote:He is not that threatening when you got the weapons to deal with him.

Which include a Lasgun. Having extensive experience running T6 creatures, it's extremely frustrating when the weakest gun in the game is capable of killing you. Even a few rapid fire bolter squads can put some wounds on him.

Well, it is a numbers game, after all.

I have seen more than once a trygon going down to conscript fire.

Never gets old. Never.

I've lost a Lord of Change to an 80 point penal legion unit exclusively on turn 1 in a Planetstrike game. Lasguns shouldn't be able to hurt Greater Daemons IMO. That's another thread though

puma713 wrote:

AbaddonFidelis wrote:Puma
The squad gets out. Mephiston gets in. The transport moves. All happens on turn 1.
So...errr.....you're wrong
AF

It doesn't move 18" as was previously mentioned. So...err...you're wrong

I love how the self proclaimed WH40k guru always comes up lacking when it comes to the rules...

Don't have a copy of the rule book so it's hard for me to respond to Puma or to you on this specific point. Based on that I bowed out of the conversation. Could be wrong. You should learn not to take disagreements so personally ted.
AF

I love mephiston, he is a beast in CC, but like all units he has his weakness....

Twin linked plasma gun obliterators ..... ouchies

In a average round of combat, Mephiston will kill 5 people on the charge. Not bad in my opinion.

I don't see him going toe to toe with some of the beastliest of close combat squads. no invulnerable save? ugh. The best close combat units have power weapons, and many of them have a good invulnerable save too. Wolf Lords, Assault Terminators, Blood Crushers all come to mind... And the things that he'll wreck are better wrecked with other squads because they aren't as vulnerable and expensive as he is. Thunder wolves come to mind here...

Basically the things he's really strong against he's overkill. The things you really need to wreck have a good chance of living through his crazy attacks and hitting him back with high strength power weapon/monstrous creature attacks.

Besides that the 1st time he sticks his head out of cover he's dogmeat. His flight ability isn't gaurunteed either. Can't understand why he doesn't have a jump pack like the rest of the army.

I think you can do better in that codex. He's really kill sure but 250 points of almost any specialized assault squad is pretty killy too, and probably a good deal tougher.
AF

I call him the mini-monster. I've seem him do heavy damage, and do nothing.

He forces some serious maneuvering duels. If he out-maneuvers you, he can be decisive in your defeat. If you isolate or quickly kill him it can be decisive in your victory.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:Don't have a copy of the rule book so it's hard for me to respond to Puma or to you on this specific point. Based on that I bowed out of the conversation. Could be wrong. You should learn not to take disagreements so personally ted.
AF

Why would you even start posting stuff that you know nothing about, personally I prefer to not say anything when Im not sure about something instead of risk giving false advice to someone.

Wolflords beats Mephistion? Thats news to me. Blood chrusers would pretty much stomp him but why would he be in HtH with them? All that asid, I agree that he is not the end all be all character that some people claims, but he is also not the crappy ass charater as some others claim. I dont know, but maybe he might even be blanaced??

AbaddonFidelis wrote:I don't see him going toe to toe with some of the beastliest of close combat squads. no invulnerable save? ugh. The best close combat units have power weapons, and many of them have a good invulnerable save too. Wolf Lords, Assault Terminators, Blood Crushers all come to mind... And the things that he'll wreck are better wrecked with other squads because they aren't as vulnerable and expensive as he is. Thunder wolves come to mind here...

Basically the things he's really strong against he's overkill. The things you really need to wreck have a good chance of living through his crazy attacks and hitting him back with high strength power weapon/monstrous creature attacks.

Besides that the 1st time he sticks his head out of cover he's dogmeat. His flight ability isn't gaurunteed either. Can't understand why he doesn't have a jump pack like the rest of the army.

I think you can do better in that codex. He's really kill sure but 275 points of almost any specialized assault squad is pretty killy too, and probably a good deal tougher.
AF

Thats because he's not meant to go toe to toe with THSS terms and other annoying deathstar units with good invuls. He's used to smack vehicles, walkers, MC's, and units with good armor but poor/no invulnerable saves. The stuff that can catch Meph is very rarely capable of killing him. 250pts BTW. And you get 3 attempts at wings, although you triple your chances of suffering perils it means youll almost always have wings when you need it.

tedurur wrote:

AbaddonFidelis wrote:Don't have a copy of the rule book so it's hard for me to respond to Puma or to you on this specific point. Based on that I bowed out of the conversation. Could be wrong. You should learn not to take disagreements so personally ted.
AF

Why would you even start posting stuff that you know nothing about, personally I prefer to not say anything when Im not sure about something instead of risk giving false advice to someone.

Wolflords beats Mephistion? Thats news to me. Blood chrusers would pretty much stomp him but why would he be in HtH with them? All that asid, I agree that he is not the end all be all character that some people claims, but he is also not the crappy ass charater as some others claim. I dont know, but maybe he might even be blanaced??

who cares what you personally would do? but yes I jumped the gun, so I let it go. You appear to be having some trouble with that, however.....

Yes wolflords beat mephiston, because the wolf lord has the strength to get through mephiston's toughness with a power weapon, while mephiston has no way of getting through the wolf lord's storm shield. The Wolf Lord is 3+ to hit 4+ to wound (+1 str. frostblade +1 str thunderwolf - don't have the book in front of me there may be other reasons he's even higher strength) or 2+ to wound (thunderhammer) and then mephiston gets no save. Additionally wolf lords have a way of travelling in squads, which mephiston cannot do, so I don't think it's realistic to suppose that he will be unaccompanied. he's crappy because he's an overpriced red herring. As I said alot of very tough units in this game cost less than he does, kill just as much if not more than he does, have invulnerable saves which he does not, and have no problem killing him if they run into him. Based on that criteria, especially in the Blood Angels codex, whcih is so full of awesomeness, yes, he's :::revised::: "sub-optimal" (not crap.)
AF

AbaddonFidelis wrote:

tedurur wrote:

AbaddonFidelis wrote:Don't have a copy of the rule book so it's hard for me to respond to Puma or to you on this specific point. Based on that I bowed out of the conversation. Could be wrong. You should learn not to take disagreements so personally ted.
AF

Why would you even start posting stuff that you know nothing about, personally I prefer to not say anything when Im not sure about something instead of risk giving false advice to someone.

Wolflords beats Mephistion? Thats news to me. Blood chrusers would pretty much stomp him but why would he be in HtH with them? All that asid, I agree that he is not the end all be all character that some people claims, but he is also not the crappy ass charater as some others claim. I dont know, but maybe he might even be blanaced??

who cares what you personally would do? but yes I jumped the gun, so I let it go. You appear to be having some trouble with that, however.....

Yes wolflords beat mephiston, because the wolf lord has the strength to get through mephiston's toughness with a power weapon, while mephiston has no way of getting through the wolf lord's storm shield. The Wolf Lord is 3+ to hit 4+ to wound (+1 str. frostblade +1 str thunderwolf - don't have the book in front of me there may be other reasons he's even higher strength) or 2+ to wound (thunderhammer) and then mephiston gets no save. Additionally wolf lords have a way of travelling in squads, which mephiston cannot do, so I don't think it's realistic to suppose that he will be unaccompanied. he's crappy because he's an overpriced red herring. As I said alot of very tough units in this game cost less than he does, kill just as much if not more than he does, have invulnerable saves which he does not, and have no problem killing him if they run into him. Based on that criteria, especially in the Blood Angels codex, whcih is so full of awesomeness, yes, he's crap.
AF

Yes, mephiston has problems. Yes, THSS terms cost less than he does and yet kill him. Yes, a psychic hood will rape him. Yes, he dies to hidden power fists because of a lack of invulnerable save. No, he is not, however, crap, as you claim. Can your THSS terms kill any vehicle in the game? No they cannot. Can you THSS terms move 24" a turn? No they cannot. Do your THSS terms provide psychic defense? No they do not. What happens when your THSS terms run into a ctan? They die. Ok so your THSS terms are in a raider. What if I destroy the raider? You think your 12" charge range scares me? No. Can you hide your THSS terms behind a single bush/tree/wall? Its gonna have to be a pretty big tree.

Mephiston is not unbeatable by any means, and he has serious flaws, however, claiming that he is utter crap is bs. Show me how your THSS terms can kill 6 different units, all 18"+ away from each other, in a single game. Guess what? They can't. But Mephiston can, and, if ignored, believe me, he will.

Mephiston is typically a footnote in Ork lists with Thraka, a larger assault range than Meph when in a RPJ BW, and barring dice rolling on the extreme ends of the possibility scale, Thraka out combat monsters Meph on the Waagh (which is the only time they'll be in assault together with a skilled Ork Player).

AbaddonFidelis wrote:

tedurur wrote:

AbaddonFidelis wrote:Don't have a copy of the rule book so it's hard for me to respond to Puma or to you on this specific point. Based on that I bowed out of the conversation. Could be wrong. You should learn not to take disagreements so personally ted.
AF

Why would you even start posting stuff that you know nothing about, personally I prefer to not say anything when Im not sure about something instead of risk giving false advice to someone.

Wolflords beats Mephistion? Thats news to me. Blood chrusers would pretty much stomp him but why would he be in HtH with them? All that asid, I agree that he is not the end all be all character that some people claims, but he is also not the crappy ass charater as some others claim. I dont know, but maybe he might even be blanaced??

who cares what you personally would do? but yes I jumped the gun, so I let it go. You appear to be having some trouble with that, however.....

Yes wolflords beat mephiston, because the wolf lord has the strength to get through mephiston's toughness with a power weapon, while mephiston has no way of getting through the wolf lord's storm shield. The Wolf Lord is 3+ to hit 4+ to wound (+1 str. frostblade +1 str thunderwolf - don't have the book in front of me there may be other reasons he's even higher strength) or 2+ to wound (thunderhammer) and then mephiston gets no save. Additionally wolf lords have a way of travelling in squads, which mephiston cannot do, so I don't think it's realistic to suppose that he will be unaccompanied. he's crappy because he's an overpriced red herring. As I said alot of very tough units in this game cost less than he does, kill just as much if not more than he does, have invulnerable saves which he does not, and have no problem killing him if they run into him. Based on that criteria, especially in the Blood Angels codex, whcih is so full of awesomeness, yes, he's crap.
AF

We'll just have to agree to disagree. I know your above post wasn't directed at me, but I don't agree that Mephiston is crap, even compared to other units in the BA codex. For instance, in your Wolf Lord scenario above (not that I would throw Mephiston into an entire unit of Thunderwolves), but Mephiston will go first with (more than likely) Str. 10. If I was planning on throwing Mephiston at a wolf Lord, I wouldn't necessarily take his Preferred Enemy power. I would save one power for the Force Weapon (unless you took Saga of the Bear, which I don't see many take). So, you make a test at -4 Ld for me to reroll hits and wounds, I go first with 6 attacks and all I need is one to go through. Are Thunderwolf lords Tough 6? If not, he's insta-killed. If so, he has a chance to be insta-killed by the Force Weapon.

Either way, I'd put my money on Mephiston. But, for the sake of argument, let's say he doesn't kill the Wolf Lord. And the Wolf Lord gets what? 5 attacks back? He needs to hit with every one. At a 3+, he's going to hit with 67%. So, already he probably won't kill Mephiston. And, again, Mephiston will go first next turn.

While being in a unit changes the dynamic (like I said, I wouldn't throw Mephiston into a unit of Thunderwolves with a Lord, unless of course he was backed up by his terminator meatshield), the tactics are not quite as cut-and-dry as you make them out to be.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kroot Loops wrote:Mephiston is typically a footnote in Ork lists with Thraka, a larger assault range than Meph when in a RPJ BW, and barring dice rolling on the extreme ends of the possibility scale, Thraka out combat monsters Meph on the Waagh (which is the only time they'll be in assault together with a skilled Ork Player).

And this isn't necessarily true either. People keep comparing Mephiston as if he's the only unit on the board, in perfect conditions. That's not how you play Meph. You don't walk him in front of your entire army, asking a Battlewagon to run down your throat and disgorge Thraka and a unit of Nobs into him. You put him behind a wall of TH/SS termis with a Sanguinary Priest. You put him in a LR or a Rhino. You keep him in cover or near a Libby with Shield of Sanguinus. But you don't just run amok with him - that's asking for him to be killed. You actually have to play him.

And, let's keep it in perspective. Thraka on the Waagh has 1 more inch of assault range than Meph. My brother plays Orks and we've had the discussion before. On the Waagh!, it's a good fight. Off the Waagh!, Mephiston wins. Course, Thraka is rarely alone. But, although Mephiston can't join squads, it doesn't mean he's always alone either.

People need to stop pitting their entire army (well I'd do this and I've taken all these units, so there's no way that he'd. . .etc., etc.) against one 250 pt. unit.

@ puma713

Well said. People keep assuming that meph is just standing around in the open waiting for something to come and kill him. Of course a good player using mephiston will be aware of what he is capable of, and wont throw him away in a useless combat he cant win.

Wolf Lords are indeed T5 so Meph will go first and a single wound means that the Wolf Lord dies, so yes. Meph will beat a WL.

Jab
ummmm.... maybe I'm overlooking something.... what ability does mephiston have that makes him more likely to kill a vehicle than a TH/SS terminators....?

No TH/SS terminators can't move 24" a turn, but given a transport they can move 20" so w/e.

No they don't provide psychic defenses but I can get that job done with other units in the same army so while it's a perk to get it on mephiston it's not vital.

Who runs C'tan? Sorry this point is just a bust.

TH/SS terminators have a 20" assault range, not a 12" assault range, out of a land raider. After I've moved it twice and the terminators get out I really don't care what happens to it. And no my terminators can't hide behind a single tree and don't need to. That's my point. Mephiston hides, Terminators don't give a they get out in front.

Yes if Mephiston is ignored he can run amok. If your opponent ignores him he's a slow anyway and you don't need to run a 250 point special character to whip him. Obviously your opponent won't be ignoring him.....
AF

at this point, the role of mephiston is almost the same as a vindicator.

Ignore it, you WILL lose squads to it. Don't ignore it, then the rest of my army moves up.

Vindicators in the Blood Angels codex I believe are 145. so for 150 or something points more, you get a psychic hood, smaller but just as threatening fire magnet, and a MC killer.

He is not perfect, but I can see uses for him. Still, Lysander wishes to have a word with him, if I get to play against him again!