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saga of the bear.... ted.

Kroot Loops wrote:Mephiston is typically a footnote in Ork lists with Thraka, a larger assault range than Meph when in a RPJ BW, and barring dice rolling on the extreme ends of the possibility scale, Thraka out combat monsters Meph on the Waagh (which is the only time they'll be in assault together with a skilled Ork Player).

And this isn't necessarily true either. People keep comparing Mephiston as if he's the only unit on the board, in perfect conditions. That's not how you play Meph. You don't walk him in front of your entire army, asking a Battlewagon to run down your throat and disgorge Thraka and a unit of Nobs into him. You put him behind a wall of TH/SS termis with a Sanguinary Priest. You put him in a LR or a Rhino. You keep him in cover or near a Libby with Shield of Sanguinus. But you don't just run amok with him - that's asking for him to be killed. You actually have to play him.

And, let's keep it in perspective. Thraka on the Waagh has 1 more inch of assault range than Meph. My brother plays Orks and we've had the discussion before. On the Waagh!, it's a good fight. Off the Waagh!, Mephiston wins. Course, Thraka is rarely alone. But, although Mephiston can't join squads, it doesn't mean he's always alone either.

People need to stop pitting their entire army (well I'd do this and I've taken all these units, so there's no way that he'd. . .etc., etc.) against one 250 pt. unit.

And your example isn't true either, because I *also* have an entire army that I know how to play, and it's not like I can't tie up your Termies with a crap ton of boys, or simply tank shock multiple deffrollas straight through them. We're discussing a single model in the BA range, I'm keeping to that.

Let's *do* keep it in perspective. Thraka from a BW has a 27" assault range. Meph on his own has 17-24". From a LR he has 21" to 26". His fleet is not the constant 6" that Thraka's is.

Why would I send Thraka in with Nobs? So you can insta-kill them and get combat Res? I don't think so, I send one model with a 2++ and immune to ID in for you to flail at. I've killed Meph over half a dozen times in this manner, and I've never taken more than two wounds in the process.

Thraka will never get to assault Mephiston. You can't add a Battlewagon to Thraka and not add - ohh let's say - 9 Multi-melta speeders to Mephiston. How is that Battlewagon getting Thraka anywhere again?

even with mephiston getting the charge, thraka on his WAAAGH! will still win against him.

a 2 up invul is a bitch.

Mephiston has the mobility to target dem lootaz or meganobz that conviently lack an invul save. Those killa kans giving you problems? Mephiston is good at killing them too.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:saga of the bear.... ted.

Do you reallt think that saga of the bear is a saga you usually see on Wolf Lords?

DarthDiggler wrote:Thraka will never get to assault Mephiston. You can't add a Battlewagon to Thraka and not add - ohh let's say - 9 Multi-melta speeders to Mephiston. How is that Battlewagon getting Thraka anywhere again?

Yes, because Thraka in a BW is so *uncommon* a build and 9 speeders is so common.... Regardless, you better hope the Ork Player doesn't go first, deff kopta alpha strike and loota's will put a pretty good hurt on speeder squadrons, enough so that the KFF might become an issue for you.

yes....I do.... for the very reasons we are discussing.

@AF

My point is that meph is always jumppacking around, take away a term squads raider and they are reduced to 6"+run per turn. Dont get me wrong, terms are good, but comparing them to meph is wrong, as they both fulfil a different role. Thats why I have them both in my BA army

AbaddonFidelis wrote:Jab
ummmm.... maybe I'm overlooking something.... what ability does mephiston have that makes him more likely to kill a vehicle than a TH/SS terminators....?

Str. 10 is an auto-pen in all but two cases. TH/SS can still roll ones.

Edit: There are a couple of 11 rear armors. So I guess in all but a "few" cases.

fair enough Jab
I see what you mean Puma. the TH/SS termies have so many more attacks that I think it balances out...

AbaddonFidelis wrote:fair enough Jab
I see what you mean Puma. the TH/SS termies have so many more attacks that I think it balances out...

I suppose. I rarely take a full unit of TH/SS. Usually I mix it up with some Lightning Claws.

I mix them too. I don't think either of them really shine against vehicles.....
AF

I think his strong point is really the number of attacks he has and his initiative, remove his initiative and he loses his strength

yes his initiative is awesome no doubt.

Just because people keep saying Mephiston is not a character. . .

That is incorrect, as only characters are Unique.

Deathleaper works wonders on Mephiston.
He is still mean, but nothing boneswords (or bonesabres!) and lashwhips cannot handle--especially given that they are generally weilded by creatures with SitW.

PBS can work pretty well on mephiston. (my understanding of the rule is that the -to ld lasts through the opponents turn)

kirsanth wrote:Just because people keep saying Mephiston is not a character. . .

That is incorrect, as only characters are Unique.

Deathleaper works wonders on Mephiston.
He is still mean, but nothing boneswords (or bonesabres!) and lashwhips cannot handle--especially given that they are generally weilded by creatures with SitW.

True, but even GW said "He is just a single model in his own right." I would've thought they would have made it clear that he is a character, if he was.

It is perfectly clear that he is unique, a rule that requires the model to be a character.

Kirsanth; so my last idea of using deathleaper and swarmlord would indeed work as i 1st said, quality


Just need to pin him down with gargs 1st.
Failing that, deathleaper and whip/sword warriors should do it.

I played a Blood Angel player at a Tournament, turn 2, Ghazghkull alone cut Mefiston in two, Blood Angel player was sad the rest of the match lol

Then that BA player needs a slap.
He should have known what ghaz could do and should have kept meph back until after the waaagh! move.

Failing that, he should have got to him on turn 1 instead.

kirsanth wrote:It is perfectly clear that he is unique, a rule that requires the model to be a character.

The rule on page 49 states, "Special Characters can be either Independant or Upgrade characters." So, which is Mephiston, Kirsanth? And where does it point out which of the two he is?

Edit: And you'll note in your link that I used to agree with your take on it. I'm not so sure anymore. I would've thought that GW would have clarified in their FAQ when they were asked if he was a character and they simply answered, "No, he is merely a unit consisting of a single model."

Did you read the linked thread?

kirsanth wrote:
To be an upgrade or special character, a model has to be a character.

Special characters are just that. Look at the end of the Tyranid codex regarding making your own Hive Fleet.
Swarmlord is a character.
Not independent, nor upgrade.
Mephiston is a character.
Not independent, nor upgrade.

Page 47 "Armies normally include two types of characters"
As specifically opposed to "Armies only include two types of characters".

There are not special rules for characters, only for upgrade characters and independent characters, this confuses people into assuming there are ONLY two types of characters.

kirsanth wrote:Page 49 is really the culprit, the more I read.

"these unique individuals, who stand out from normal characters because they have a personal name and not just a title, are called 'special characters' . . . Special characters can be either independent or upgrade characters"

This seems to imply that special characters have to be independent or upgrade characters--it only gives the allowance to be, however.

Individual, named models are special characters.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Read the rules for Unique on page 49.
Look at the section it is in--which will tell you what type of models they apply to: "Special Characters".

kirsanth wrote:Did you read the linked thread?

kirsanth wrote:
To be an upgrade or special character, a model has to be a character.

Special characters are just that. Look at the end of the Tyranid codex regarding making your own Hive Fleet.
Swarmlord is a character.
Not independent, nor upgrade.
Mephiston is a character.
Not independent, nor upgrade.

Page 47 "Armies normally include two types of characters"
As specifically opposed to "Armies only include two types of characters".

There are not special rules for characters, only for upgrade characters and independent characters, this confuses people into assuming there are ONLY two types of characters.

kirsanth wrote:Page 49 is really the culprit, the more I read.

"these unique individuals, who stand out from normal characters because they have a personal name and not just a title, are called 'special characters' . . . Special characters can be either independent or upgrade characters"

This seems to imply that special characters have to be independent or upgrade characters--it only gives the allowance to be, however.

Individual, named models are special characters.

Yep, I'm one of the last people who posted in it. And just because you said it, doesn't make it true or right. Quoting yourself in another argument does not a point prove. As I said in my edited post above, I used to be in the same camp as you. I'm not so sure anymore. The reason your argument falls apart is because it is a permissive ruleset. A permissive ruleset does not allow for:

kirsanth wrote:
There are not special rules for characters, only for upgrade characters and independent characters

There are no rules for my made up bolter, only for other kinds of bolters, of which we don't know the amount. That means my made-up bolter is okay right? Because the rules don't exactly cover them.

Wrong. In a permissive ruleset, the rules must cover what you can do and with what you can do it. It doesn't cover Characters outside of Independant and Upgrade, it merely alludes to the fact that some may exist.

You know what else "may" exist? Bolt pistols that can fire 72" at Str 10 and AP1. The rules don't cover them, but they're alluded to, so they exist. Trust me.

LOL

I quoted myself to save time from retyping it, not because it was me posting it.

If you can tell me where the logic is flawed I would be happy to agree.

Mephiston is Unique.
The rules for Unique models specify they are characters and are listed in the Characters section of the book.

editing to add:
Your imaginary bolter does not have a section in the rule book.
Special Characters do--they are a superset of Unique.

Lets get back on the questionable topic/statements and not the personal attacks... it's been far too much recently IMO.

Mephy is not the Lord of Cheese.
He has a blatant weakness that the Edward Marines need to be aware of to make the most out of him.

It's much like Lash, if you know what is up and what to do against it, it won't be as wreck-face as it looked when it first came out. It's not saying he's a noob, but there is a balancing mechanism.

kirsanth wrote:LOL

I quoted myself to save time from retyping it, not because it was me posting it.

If you can tell me where the logic is flawed I would be happy to agree.

Mephiston is Unique.
The rules for Unique models specify they are characters and are listed in the Characters section of the book.

It also says that there are "normally" two types of characters. Independant and Upgrade. Someone is neither. "Normally" doesn't serve as a qualifier that suddenly allows whatever your interpretation to be to be accepted in a permissive ruleset. If that was the case, people would be making up rules left and right. "Normally" is a qualifier to tell you that there are lots of characters, but the two that there are rules for are Independant and Upgrade.

There are also Special Characters, which can be either independant or upgrade. Again, the unit in question is neither.

That is where the logic falls apart. I'll have to look at the Unique title section when I get home, because I'm on my computer at work and don't have my rulebook in front me.

Edit: I guess it's not worth getting worked up over. All the tournaments around here use the INAT anyway, so it doesn't even matter to me.

Let me ask it simply then:

Can you field more than one of him?

If not, can you point to the rules stating why?

Note:
Not worked up!
I enjoy debates, please do not take me disagreeing as being upset or trying to goad--I try to do the same.

kirsanth wrote:Let me ask it simply then:

Can you field more than one of him?

If not, can you point to the rules stating why?

Note:
Not worked up!
I enjoy debates, please do not take me disagreeing as being upset or trying to goad--I try to do the same.

No, I was saying for me getting worked up! I get worked up over rules debates sometimes, but it's only because I want to understand what I might face on the battlefield. I don't like surprises when it comes to 40K. I want to know my enemy and know his rules. That's why I say it doesn't really matter, because we use the INAT around here in tournaments and the INAT rules that he isn't a character.

However, I do remember why I agreed with you in the first place, and I'll change my argument a little bit.

I agree that he should be considered a character. Special Characters and Uniques are under characters, and it is only logical that is a character.

However, I don't agree that RaW says he is a character. I think the Unique heading is there to describe what Unique means (as in, you can't field more than one of this type of unit), not that Unique = Special Characters. However, Unique does reside under Special Characters, so it would lead me to believe he is a Special Character. Upon further inspection, it says Special Characters can be either Independant or Upgrade, of which he is neither. So, there is the quandary.

Do I think he is a character? Yes.
Do I think that RaW supports him being a character? No, with shades of grey.
Does the LFGS and its surrounding tournaments play him as a character? No.

That last one is all I need to know.

Yeah to me he is a cheese since it seems like if you don't play an up to date army, he's going to destroy you and there's nothing you can do about it. I play Necrons and trust me when I say that I'm really good even though they are out dated and are in need of help, but against Blood Angels and Mephiston the odds are we're going to lose unless we have some luck. I'm starting to hate 40k because of this, I really hope they do something soon.