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Mephiston is good if you have other stuff that is scary too. My 1500 pt army has 3 lib dreads with wings, mephiston, and 5 double melta TLHF razors. You need antitank to kill anything, but what do you want to shoot? Statistically you need to make meph take 10 cover saves to kill him, meaning firing 10-11 lascannons/railguns/plasmacannons at him. But then those 10 antitank weapons arent going into my razors or libs. Usually the libs and meph can get into assault without having to go into melta range as they have wings. When I use mephiston I know he'll draw lots of fire, and i like that, because it keeps the rest of my stuff alive. If the enemy does ignore him hell smash stuff sure, but the rest of your army will suffer.

From all the posts mephiston cheese seems to be a magnet for cannon fodder....

It has to be a serious case of cannon fodder.

Mephistons stats means that any fodder unit will have to be able to sustain a lot of casualties and still stick around. And they need to stick around for at least 2 assault phase in order to really achieve anything.

On top of that the fodder unit should be Stubborn, but not Fearless. Fearless just makes it worse.

Some posters say that a skilled player can defeat Mehiston will little damage done, but in the hands of a skilled player Mephiston can become a monster who will tear the heart out an attack.

I used him in one game and he wiped out a Thunderwolf cav unit, taking 4 wounds in return. He then jumped up to the top of a building and brought a unit of grey hunters down to 2 guys before dieing to a perils of the warp attack. I didn't have anything else in the army that could deal with Thunderwolves so quickly and I was able to devote more resources in another area of the board to get the win.

Mephison didn't wade through the entire enemy army, but he surgically struck the most powerful threat to me and took it out. I think he is well worth the points.

I hear a lot of people say that Mephiston can easily be taken out or neutered.

I hear a lot of people say that Mephisons disadvantages (cost and non-IC) makes him easy to work around.

What I don't hear is anybody actually saying how they go about handling this supposed pushover of a character.


Some say that that he can be destroyed by good CC units. They just don't say how they convince Mephiston (with his 12" Jumppack move) to just stand still and wait for the charge.

Some say that he is to be whittled down by shooting (due to the lack of Invulnerable save). They just don't say how they focus fire the single easily-hid-able model (with potential FnP) before his Jumppack move allows him to make charges at his leisure.

Basically all I hear is a lot of people regurgitating what they have heard being thrown around as "established wisdom".

Or......I just don't see the glaring obvious tactic that allows me to squash Mephiston with such contemptuous ease. At least not when it comes to my Tyranids.

@Steelmage, agreed with most of your post. Meph is NOT easy to kill for most people. A fast moving easily hidden T6 W5 2+ save character is difficult to kill. For marines you need to feed him a significant amount of plasma, lascannon and melta fire to take him down. That's all firepower that isn't dealing with transports full of melta-equipped assault marines, flying dreadnoughts and other faster vehicle killy-ness.

Tyranids IMO, have the easiest time dealing with Meph. He's going to charge you, so you have to be ready for it. Either bait him with a juicy unit and then counter-charge him, or bubble wrap your vulnerable stuff, or try to catch him with some shrikes, gargoyles or maybe Hormigaunts if you get lucky and lock him down for the big boys to stomp him.

What to kill him with; Lashwhip/Bonesword poison warriors/shrikes. He goes to I1, you wound on a 4+ and ignore his save, Shadow in the warp screws with his powers. Possible instant death is gravy, but not to be counted on. You can get ~5 of these warriors for Meph's cost. Try to get them preferred enemy via Old Adversary or the Swarmlord's buff to make extra sure he dies. 4+ to hit with a re-roll, 4+ to wound. On the charge you get 20 attacks. On average he takes 7.5 wounds from the 5 of them charging before he strikes. Dead.

Genestealers with Poison. Not as efficient, as you will take a fair bit of damage here, but you can get ~15 poison stealers for his cost. 4+ to hit (Hopefully with a re-roll) 4+ to wound, with 6's being instant wound. Broodlord helps here with his ability to shut Meph down completely and attempt to instant death him with implant attack.

Swarmlord + whip Guard; 3+ to hit, 4+ to wound, 1 wound = instant death. You have 4-5 dice to accomplish this before he will basically 1 shot your Swarmlord with the forceweapon. Dicey, but pretty much a guaranteed splat. Trouble is matching them up. Smart BA players won't allow this to happen.

Things to keep away from Meph; The obvious things like hive guard, Tyrannofexes and zoanthropes, they don't belong in combat. Also, non-Lashwhip/bonesword shrikes, warriors, Lictors, Tyranid Primes and raveners as they get instant deathed REALLY badly. Hive Tyrants, Mawlocs, Tervigons and Trygons should also avoid him, as that force weapon mean you are out 1 monstrous creature REALLY fast. Also, don't even bother shooting at him with zoans or much of anything else. His 2+ save and likely 4+ FnP makes small arms fire almost completely useless.

Now, If you play a list that is; HT/prime, Tervigon/termigant spam, some hive guard/zoans and some trygons....you are screwed basically.

I agree that Mephiston has the toughest time against proper bug units, however seeing those units is not a given. Double boneswords gibe him trouble, but those are not commly fielded in numbers great enough to ensure he will face them. Poisoned Gants look nice on paper until you realize they hit him on 5's and that's not good. Genestealers, especially poisoned ones, are possibly the best option, but keeping them alive until they can get to him will be tricky.

I personally run mephiston behind a razor on the first turn, then go and attack squads which dont have hidden fists on sergeants and are near or within cover if possible. Crisis suits and broadside suits are great targets, avoid huge blobs of infantry because youll get tarpitted, avoid large squads with sergeant powerfists, cos the fist WILL take 1-2 wounds off meph per turn, and you dont want that. MC's are fine targets, if you can kill them before they strike. Basically with mephiston go for either 1. a powerful unit that could potentially hurt you but you should be able to kill before it strikes or 2. weak squads who are powerless against you, and who you can kill in 1-2 combat rounds, freeing you up for your next turn's movement.

I think the real kicker about the character is that he's a demon prince or a tyranid monster that can hide from shooting behind a small wall or such. If such terrain is available, then he could be very dangerous.

It really would just come down to judgment and planning from each of the players - can the BA player pick a unit that costs nearly as much as Mephiston to attack, and/or a unit that he would reliably take 2 turns to destroy, and then move on to something else? Or can the non-BA player lure Mephiston out of hiding with a cannon-fodder unit, tarpitting him or leaving him pissing in the wind for a shooting phase?

I-bounty-hunt-the-elderly wrote:- can the BA player pick a unit that costs nearly as much as Mephiston to attack, and/or a unit that he would reliably take 2 turns to destroy, and then move on to something else?

I don't think that's the way to approach it. We shouldn't go around looking for units of 250+pts to attack with Mephiston. We should look for units that will give the rest of our army trouble, either through accomplishing the mission or through just hammering our army, and Mephiston should target that unit.

Carnage43 wrote:@Steelmage, agreed with most of your post. Meph is NOT easy to kill for most people. A fast moving easily hidden T6 W5 2+ save character is difficult to kill. For marines you need to feed him a significant amount of plasma, lascannon and melta fire to take him down. That's all firepower that isn't dealing with transports full of melta-equipped assault marines, flying dreadnoughts and other faster vehicle killy-ness.

Marines do however have a hood, or atleast they should have...Also, plasma pretty much ment to be used to take out MCs and units like Mephy so you arent really wasting plasma. LCs ect are a diffrent story tho.

SteelMage
The best way to deal with him honestly is to just shoot him. Even if he's in cover it's 50/50. At least against me if this guy steps out of cover for even one turn he's finished.
AF


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I think its interesting that the American players are almost unanimous in disliking him.... but the players from other countries are much more optimistic about his chances.

Mephiston is a TOTAL waste of points....

...which is why the best general winner at Bolscon had him in his army.

...total waste.

I like to use him because everyone notices his weaknesses, and then believes that they can exploit them with ease.

When I don't play dumb with him, and he rips apart a solid section of the enemy... they wonder how it happened.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:If you move the rhino 18" and he kills it mephiston dies. fast vehicle rules.

Whoa! Where's that in the fast vehicle rules? I'm new to 40k and could think of few situations in which I could use that. Specifically in my first match I played an Ork player who was intent on running his trukks flat out loaded with ork boyz. His idea was to ride up to my necrons as quick as he could and unload his cargo right in front of me in turn two. Now if I'm sitting at the 12" line and his two trukks have just moved flat out and are now at the 30" line that would put him 6" away from my front lines - well within the 24" range of my three 'liths and their particle whips that could get a destroyed on the trukks. Do they die if you get a wrecked? I looked on page 70 of the rule book but it didn't say anything about all passengers getting killed if a flat out vehicle is killed.

edowney wrote:

AbaddonFidelis wrote:If you move the rhino 18" and he kills it mephiston dies. fast vehicle rules.

Whoa! Where's that in the fast vehicle rules? I'm new to 40k and could think of few situations in which I could use that. Specifically in my first match I played an Ork player who was intent on running his trukks flat out loaded with ork boyz. His idea was to ride up to my necrons as quick as he could and unload his cargo right in front of me in turn two. Now if I'm sitting at the 12" line and his two trukks have just moved flat out and are now at the 30" line that would put him 6" away from my front lines - well within the 24" range of my three 'liths and their particle whips that could get a destroyed on the trukks. Do they die if you get a wrecked? I looked on page 70 of the rule book but it didn't say anything about all passengers getting killed if a flat out vehicle is killed.

Nope, AF screwed it up, only skimmers going flat out are destroyed if they are immoblized. Normal vehicles arent.

oh it's only skimmers. ok sorry.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:oh it's only skimmers. ok sorry.

no its not, nothing ebarked in the whole WH40k universe dies if they get shot down when thier ride went flat out. Dangerous terrain tests however...

I hear a lot of people say that Mephiston can easily be taken out or neutered.

I hear a lot of people say that Mephisons disadvantages (cost and non-IC) makes him easy to work around.

What I don't hear is anybody actually saying how they go about handling this supposed pushover of a character.


Some say that that he can be destroyed by good CC units. They just don't say how they convince Mephiston (with his 12" Jumppack move) to just stand still and wait for the charge.

Some say that he is to be whittled down by shooting (due to the lack of Invulnerable save). They just don't say how they focus fire the single easily-hid-able model (with potential FnP) before his Jumppack move allows him to make charges at his leisure.

Basically all I hear is a lot of people regurgitating what they have heard being thrown around as "established wisdom".

Or......I just don't see the glaring obvious tactic that allows me to squash Mephiston with such contemptuous ease. At least not when it comes to my Tyranids.

In my experience of playing against him twice he managed to get in and kill a unit each time and afterwards I shot him with plasma/melta. The first it was my Plague Marines and a Tyrannid player vs Blood Angels. Mephiston charged a Guant squad and won the combat in 3 player turns. He was then shot by both of my PM squads (1 2x plasma, 1 2x melta, 2 combi plasma on rhino) and died. Now the Blood Angels player could have used him better but I'll address that later.

The second game I charged him with a Daemon Prince which I believe was wounded. He proceeded to kill it and then got shot by 2 obliterators and another plasma toting PM squad and died.

Now, did the Blood Angels player use him to his full potential- the answer is likely no. But without going too in depth to the battle I'll point out that when I play my Death Guard list I usually move my force together. I have lesser daemons as a good tarpit to throw at Meph and plenty of weapons to wound and kill him once he's close. Meph wants to be close. Picking and choosing the correct time to assault with him isn't always easy, especially against Mech forces. Its very unlikely that he's allowed to kill more than one unit without the opponent getting a chance to shoot him.

It seems Meph is good at tackling a squad and hoping to win combat in 1 turn so he can assault again without being shot. This isn't so easy though. Basically the bottom line is shoot the guy. And even with a 7-10 man tactical squad with a powerfist, you can reasonably hope to wound him once. So assault isn't out of the question. To a Meph opponent the key to me is damage control. I'll let him kill 200 points if it means he dies. In the 2 games I've played he's done less than that.

Against Nids I'd say you should have less of a problem. 30 poisoned guants will tie him up and wear him down. Lash wips combined with anything that ignores armor makes him cry, especially if that is also poisoned. Nids have to beat him in CC most likely but have the goods to do it. A Tryant with Boneswords and Tryant guard with whips could probably so it in a turn.

If i personally was going to run him in my army, id run him behind a wall of razor backs, since he is a librarian he does have a psychic hood. So id move the wall forward and let him follow. So when my backs get into combat hes there to.

I plan on running him a few times to see what Ideas I have for him. I know he has no I save, so I would run him near libby dreads for shield. This will screen him until they hit the line of combat.

zeekill wrote:Most people are too stupid to use him correctly.

zeekill wrote:You put him in a rhino, go 18" first turn into terrain and pop smoke launchers.

This is too funny to me.

Steelmage99 wrote:I hear a lot of people say that Mephiston can easily be taken out or neutered.

I hear a lot of people say that Mephisons disadvantages (cost and non-IC) makes him easy to work around.

What I don't hear is anybody actually saying how they go about handling this supposed pushover of a character.


Some say that that he can be destroyed by good CC units. They just don't say how they convince Mephiston (with his 12" Jumppack move) to just stand still and wait for the charge.

Some say that he is to be whittled down by shooting (due to the lack of Invulnerable save). They just don't say how they focus fire the single easily-hid-able model (with potential FnP) before his Jumppack move allows him to make charges at his leisure.

Basically all I hear is a lot of people regurgitating what they have heard being thrown around as "established wisdom".

Or......I just don't see the glaring obvious tactic that allows me to squash Mephiston with such contemptuous ease. At least not when it comes to my Tyranids.

I de-mech you turn 1 with 6 meltas in your face. You have no cover.

I have my assault units in land raiders. I move as fast as you.

all my shooty units are in transports. You can't easily assault my guys.

I use a librarian. You can't use your powers half the time.

He becomes a walking fire-magnet without cover, only to be assaulted should he get close enough.

That is how I counter mephiston.

To be quite fair, is someone is showering your land raider with plasma shots you will probably win the game

Since you want to be picky, you mean *if someone*
Not *is someone*

Now, that would be a dickish thing to do wouldnt it.
Makes more sense for them to be aimed at the termies that get out?
Didnt think i would have to add in about shooting the unit when it gets out, since that seems to explain its self.

۞ Jack ۞ wrote:
Throw death leaper into it and some other nasties and you drop his LD by 3 to start with.

And yeah, he's not an Independant Character or an Upgrade Character.

From what I've read in this thread, it seems like people have played against BA and the BA general is throwing Mephiston at his opponent's Death Star. Mephiston getting charged by Swarmlord? When Mephiston has a potential 24" reach? He shouldn't be getting charged by anything that he doesn't want to get charged by.

Sounds like, to me, the BA generals that have been fielding him have been doing so hoping he's going to carry the weight of the game on his shoulders. He doesn't. He is great for a few things. One is diversion. People take a lot of Missile Launchers. Meph shrugs off missile launchers, especially with a Sanguinary Priest around. Also, he controls the field. Whether or not people like it, people fear him (whether rationally or not). Put him somewhere and the opponent's Deathstar will probably move that way. While they do that, you capitalize on Mephiston's ability to control the battlefield.

He's much more than just a statline.


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Beerfart wrote:Mephiston is a TOTAL waste of points....

...which is why the best general winner at Bolscon had him in his army.

...total waste.

And. . .this.

He shouldn't be getting charged by anything that he doesn't want to get charged by

Thats why you use cheap units to hold him down or control where he goes.

for example: Whip and sword warriors will do great against him, so he wont go near them.
Thats a nice footprint of the board thats meph free.
Or, you could do the sensible thing and throw a unit of gargs at him to hold him down.
S10 and force wep dont do alot against weak units.


Caught me out on the IC rule though, forgot about that one for some reason 0_o (i need to re-read some nid rules 1st me thinks)

tedurur wrote:

AbaddonFidelis wrote:If you move the rhino 18" and he kills it mephiston dies. fast vehicle rules.

Read the rules again

Not to mention the fact that putting Mephiston in a Rhino and moving 18" in the first turn doesn't even work.

All the transports (save for Land Speeder Storms) in the BA codex are Dedicated. That means Mephiston has to borrow someone's. That also means that Mephiston cannot begin in the transport.

Therefore, on turn 1, Mephiston must embark upon said Rhino.

Units may not embark or disembark if a fast vehicle has moved or plans to move flat out.

The pros seems to outweigh the cons, so I'll be including Mephiston in my primary list. I can see how some people think he's invincible and leave him out in open or throw him into a unit he's not prepared to handle on his own, but if you're doing that to begin with, you need to read the rulebook again. And again.

Brother-Thunder wrote:

I de-mech you turn 1 with 6 meltas in your face. You have no cover.

I have my assault units in land raiders. I move as fast as you.

all my shooty units are in transports. You can't easily assault my guys.

I use a librarian. You can't use your powers half the time.

He becomes a walking fire-magnet without cover, only to be assaulted should he get close enough.

That is how I counter mephiston.

Wow, with everything always working in your favor, you must win all your tournaments.

Puma
The squad gets out. Mephiston gets in. The transport moves. All happens on turn 1.
So...errr.....you're wrong
AF