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Raven Guard did a mass Space marine cloning Effort that failed.

Imperial Fists couldn't let a grudge go and were almost wiped out by Iron Warriors after the Siege of Terra.

Iur_tae_mont wrote:Raven Guard did a mass Space marine cloning Effort that failed.

Imperial Fists couldn't let a grudge go and were almost wiped out by Iron Warriors after the Siege of Terra.

Then What about the Salamanders? OR the oh wait.
Or the oh wait....
I know the wait....
Damn......
I know the White Scars!

Salamanders Follow the Codex as well as the doctrines of their own Promethean Cult.

White Scars focus more on a tribal Orginization and they don't use Dreadnoughts.

Asherian Command wrote:Ehh. What about the Raven Guard and the Imperial Fists?

I'm a big fan of the Raven Guard, despite them being freaky ninjas. However, they have some geneseed mutations going, which is probably what makes them a second-choice candidate for the High Lords of Terra when choosing a geneseed for a new founding.

Imperial Fists? I really don't know why they're not at least close to parity with the Ultramarines. It might be because Dorn was a specialist, whereas Rowboat was an all-rounder.

Seaward wrote:The Ultramarines are the quiet professionals of the Space Marine pantheon, and that's attractive to a lot of people.

I was trying to figure out how to put into words why I like the Ultramarines, but I couldn't have said it any better than this.

I don't know if any Space Marine chapter (Bar the Raven Guard) can be classified as "quiet."

prussia59 wrote:Well, I have never read ANYTHING that dissed the Ultras. So, my good sir, that was quite uncalled for.

Bull testicles. Just read this thread if you want to see Ultramarine dissing.

prussia59 wrote:

prussia59 wrote:
Furthermore, they have it rather easy, and because they have no faults or blemishes, it takes no faith on their part to follow the emperor. The Blood Angels or the Space Wolves, on the other hand, have obvious and self-destructive traits, but they strive through such obstacles nonetheless, and keep their oaths to emperor and imperium. That takes tremendous strength of faith, whereas the Ultras have no such obstacles - they are simply and strictly goody-goody.
(*smile*)

And, like, why does nobody care that I said this? I thought it was a good point.

Because it's ridiculous? I don't see people attacking the Salamanders for those same traits.

There is no prominent (i.e., first founding or has-its-own-codex Chapter) that I specifically dislike. The closest I come is choosing SW over DA in their old rivalry. Doesn't mean I hate DA, however. I don't get the Ultrahate. I think all it is just more of the usual internet-empowerment of bored preteens/teens/adults who never got over being teens to loudly broadcast through the 4chan&etc megaphone opinions they don't actually hold and cannot substantially back up.

A reason I like the Ultramarines (and why I decided that my Marines were a (unofficial) successor chapter of the Ultras), is because they're one of the few, if not the only, Chapter to remember what the original purpose of the Astartes was - the eventual spread of Humanity as the rulers of the Galaxy.

Note that - HUMANITY. So many of the other famous Marine chapters fight for their own glory or for other reasons (Templars crusades, Dark Angel's hunt after the Fallen, Space Wolves... just fighting. Then drinking. And more fighting!), while the Ultramarine's ultimate goal is still the same as from the 31st millennium.

I'd say SW, Sallies, and Raven Guard are all pretty devoted to that goal, too. Along with the boys in blue, they're what you might call the more "mortal-friendly" chapters.

Manchu wrote:There is no prominent (i.e., first founding or has-its-own-codex Chapter) that I specifically dislike. The closest I come is choosing SW over DA in their old rivalry. Doesn't mean I hate DA, however. I don't get the Ultrahate. I think all it is just more of the usual internet-empowerment of bored preteens/teens/adults who never got over being teens to loudly broadcast through the 4chan&etc megaphone opinions they don't actually hold and cannot substantially back up.

Some of that, sure, but I can understand people being a little ticked that Ward decided to make C:SM all about him giving a lapdance to the Ultras. There's, what, five or six Ultramarine SCs in there? That's pretty excessive, not to mention that the entire rest of the book is basically about them.

Actually, the 4th edition Codex by Pete Haines and Graham "Uriel Ventris" McNeill was the real UM lovefest. Ward just picked up where they left off. IMO, dropping traits/drawbacks was not so much about giving UM the spotlight as it was a reaffirmation of the main division between SM--i.e., between Codex-adherent and Codex-divergent Marines. As it stands, you really can build any Codex-adherent Chapter out of the 5th ed. SM dex.* Yes, three UM SCs were added but we also got three more non-UM SCs (two of which reinstated Chapters that had previously had SCs) as well as getting all three of the non-UM SCs from the 4th ed. book.

But your point still stands: UM now have six SCs. So what is the justification? As you said, UM are the Codex-adherent template. They are described in greater detail than any other Chapter. For hardcore fans, this is great: everything has already been decided and you can go and model it. For those who don't want to swing DIY but still like to come up with their own fluff, playing any of the other Codex-adherent chapters is a great option. The new BA dex shows a great parallel to this thinking: yes, the book is dominated by the BA but the Flesh Tearers get their Chapter Master. Technically, the Flesh Tearers have only one unit--but they actually have every unit available to the BA with the exception of BA SCs. And you can work around even that, of course, thanks to counts-as ingenuity.

Let me also remind you that the UM also had two elites choices in the 4th ed. dex that were both mainstreamed by Ward: the Tyrannic vets (now much better as Sternguard) and the UM Honor Guard.

*Although, there really should be an IH SC.

Calgar, Tigurius, Sicarius and Cassius have been around for yonks. Telion and Chronus were added as specials granted, perhaps Chronus could have come from one of the other chapters like the Imperial Fists or Iron Hands.
Yes, 6 UM SCs.

The codex does double as the Ultramarine Codex but so what? It uses the Ultras as an example of a codex chapter and gives a whole lot of background info about them at the same time.

Seaward wrote:

Manchu wrote:There is no prominent (i.e., first founding or has-its-own-codex Chapter) that I specifically dislike. The closest I come is choosing SW over DA in their old rivalry. Doesn't mean I hate DA, however. I don't get the Ultrahate. I think all it is just more of the usual internet-empowerment of bored preteens/teens/adults who never got over being teens to loudly broadcast through the 4chan&etc megaphone opinions they don't actually hold and cannot substantially back up.

Some of that, sure, but I can understand people being a little ticked that Ward decided to make C:SM all about him giving a lapdance to the Ultras. There's, what, five or six Ultramarine SCs in there? That's pretty excessive, not to mention that the entire rest of the book is basically about them.

I agree with this. To make matters worse, not only are there a ton of characters, each is "the best" at what they do. Marneus is the ultimate commander, Telion the ultimate sniper, Chronos the ultimate tanker (in fluff anyway), Sicarius the ultimate rapid assault tactician and so on and so forth. I actually quite like the fleshed out fluff for the Ultramarines (they have a ton of stories out there) but does get a little irksome that they literally have NO flaws. Even if they didn't translate to the table-top, it would be refreshing to see one of the staff or BL writers to write a story where the Ultramarines did NOT overcome every obstacle to beating face. Literally the only one I can think of is the Heresy Era Alpha Legion vs. Ultramarines story.

This is why I like the Salamanders. They are the ultimate "journey man" space marine chapter. They do one thing well (arms and armor) but most of the stories you see about them are performing the relatively un-sung actions that marines perform every day ( re-guard action protecting refugee convoys, assaulting Roks on Armageddon, particpating in (but not dominating) The Badab War. Their history isn't one long litany of amazing victories against seemingly impossible odds (although all marine histories are exactly that). They suffered during the heresy, they didn't come out stronger because of it, the don't command the adulation of an entire sector, they don't have the best of everything - but they persevere. They also never lose that core "decency" that is exemplified by the humility of Tu'Shan in ceding command to Dante or by coming to blows with the Exemplars over war crimes against those refugees.

If you think Ultramarines lack flaws, you're not reading their fluff closely enough. Either that or you don't think inflexibility-unto-arrogance is much of a flaw. And how about the tension between Sicarius and Agemman? If you want to think Ultramarines are awful then I'm sure you can. The same attitude could be directed at any Chapter.

that's just it. I don't think the ultras are awful, Manchu. As I said, I like their fluff - I just wish the flaws were given a little more light. The Agemman/Sicarius rift is given one? sentence's worth of mention that I know of.

Granted, I have not read most of the BL books - most of my fluff knowledge comes from the various rulebooks. I like the play between the traditionalists in Marneus and such and the "radicals" in Cassius with his Tyranic War Vets.

At the end of the day, I simply prefer the Salamander's stuff.

I don't know that the Salamanders really have a flaw. They are the real SMs-next-door, while the UM are cold and dictatorial war-worshipers. Like IRL fascists, they do keep the trains running on time. Don't get me wrong, I like the Sallies. Even in the GrimDark, someone needs to exhibit some compassion. (Are you saying that this is their flaw?) But they do not get to the essence of Space Marine--that would be the UM and, to an ever so slightly lesser degree, the IF.

I had forgotten about Cassius's forboding weirdness. Another great example of the little cracks that belie the UM's appearance of perfection.

I'd say the Salamander's flaw would be the Promethean Cult, and when you really get down to it that would be the greatest flaw ever for Space Marines.

I dislike most marine chapters with a general equality.

The first cheesy SM army I played against when I was 15 was Ultramarines (and I got the floor wiped with me by a much more experienced and older gamer).

That said, I'm a model and painting based 40k hobbyist. the Marneus Calgar & command squad, when painted to a high standard, are possibly the most riveting models in the 40k universe. I want to play UM just so I can buy, paint, and field Calgar. I read UM batreps just so I can see if the marine player fielded him, and then, to see how he performed.

It's a love-hate thing: love calgar, hate marines. hate vanilla, but hate space wolves more.

I think what it really comes down to is people wish there was some more fluff/support/SC for other chapters. I for one would like more Raven Guard stuff. But hey I'm just happy to get some FW love. Besides if I really wanted to I could just get a Marnius Calgar model, shave off all the Ultra Marines logos (admittedly might take me a long time) put some Raven guard symbols on him and bam he's now not the Ultra Marines chapter master but the raven guard one. The way I see it they are "bland" so you can go "hey I like this character I think I'll use him in my whatever space marine chapter."

@Iur-tae-mont: How so? It makes them more brave, more noble, more determined fighters/characters.

Salamanders were my first really serious army ( ie I kind of knew what I was doing) back in the day when they were I3 and had melta proof tanks and such.

I never really thought of them as having a flaw (other than being slow) - just not being portrayed as OMG Awesomesauce! They have character without it being another version of "Space Marine Chapter X performed a mass drop into the center of enemy lines - killed a gazillion dudes, lost none in return."

We're agreeing with each other but internet social norms make it impossible for us to actually admit it. I like the Salamander fluff (no obviously huge flaw), I like the Ultramarines fluff (little cracks and intrigues and all), but I prefer the Salamanders' fluff to Ultramarines'. What I DIDN"T like was Matt Ward's "ULTRAMARINES ARE THE BEST AT EVERYTHING" treatment in the codex.

In the end, all the codex chapters have better fluff than the SW, BA, DA, or BT (IMHO)

I've been torn about starting Codex Marines since the 5th ed book came out for the very reasons you describe, Sgt_Scruffy. Trying to decide between Ultramarines and Sallies is nigh impossible for me. I think if FW were to make a Salamander Dreadnought (that looked as good as the SW one), the tie would finally be broken. Yeah, Sallies are great and I think you'll find Matt Ward gave them a tremendous amount of love in the form of Vulkan He'stan. I don't think you'll find those six UM SCs in a quarter as many SM armies as He'stan.

Manchu, I would say it's a Flaw because it deviates from the Codex. It's still the greatest damn flaw ever, but would technically count.

Yeah, IF I were ever to do marines again (unlikely as I find being a filthy xenos too much fun) it would be a hard toss up between sallies, crimson fists, and ultramarines

Seaward wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:Ehh. What about the Raven Guard and the Imperial Fists?

I'm a big fan of the Raven Guard, despite them being freaky ninjas. However, they have some geneseed mutations going, which is probably what makes them a second-choice candidate for the High Lords of Terra when choosing a geneseed for a new founding.

Imperial Fists? I really don't know why they're not at least close to parity with the Ultramarines. It might be because Dorn was a specialist, whereas Rowboat was an all-rounder.

It's also because the Ultramarines gene-seed has largely remained unchanged over the millennia, whereas the Imperial Fists' gene-seed has slight flaws in it which (if I remember correctly) means that their Betcher's Gland doesn't work anymore. Essentially, they can't spit acid.

Not that spitting acid comes to much...

M.

never even seen anything in any book where a Space Marine used the acid spitting powers. You'd think something like that would be used at every oppertunity.

It comes up from time to time. It was in one of Dembski-Bowden's Night Lords yarns most recently, I believe.

Yeah, it's been around for as long as they've been talking about the Marine organs. I -think- it's less that they squirt acid than their saliva being strongly acidic. Might take them a while to damage anything worse than a bolt pistol could do.

M.

He (Talos, I believe) hocks one into a temple assassin's face and pretty much ruins her day.