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Ultramines are rather annoying, aren't they. You know you know.

At the very least, they are boring. They have no character, other than being 'purer' than other space marines. Which is snobbish.

Which leads to my other point - their arrogance. They can't get enough of themselves.

Furthermore, they have it rather easy, and because they have no faults or blemishes, it takes no faith on their part to follow the emperor. The Blood Angels or the Space Wolves, on the other hand, have obvious and self-destructive traits, but they strive through such obstacles nonetheless, and keep their oaths to emperor and imperium. That takes tremendous strength of faith, whereas the Ultras have no such obstacles - they are simply and strictly goody-goody.

P.S. Remember, this all is speculation about the background... of a game. However ridiculously fun that game might be. Up-tightness will be purged. (*smile*)

No, you will find many people who do not care for ultramarines.

Unless someone does a wicked cool paint job on some, then they are sweeeeet!

I actually like the Ultramarines.

They taste like vanilla. And vanilla is DELICIOUS.

They are the main poster bot for spess mahreens so they should in essence be the basis where all marines is measure from

the purest marine so far is probably the grey knight
none have fallen, all of them psyker, they choose their color because they think it's pure

You would think the Imperial Fists, being as they guard Terra, would be the poster boys. But nope.

M.

Retrias wrote:
the purest marine so far is probably the grey knight
none have fallen, all of them psyker, they choose their color because they think it's pure

Well there is one other chapter but no one likes talking about them as they techincally don't really act like a chapter XD. Can you guess the Legion of the Damned.
But The Ultramarines really need to get the boot as the Imperial Fists barely have anything on them except in the Index Astrates and a very brief paragraph.

Ma55ter_fett wrote:No, you will find many people who do not care for ultramarines.

Indeed. I'm sure that five seconds on the search function would yield a bevvy of screeds against the Boys in Blue.

It would all be as original and witty as what has already been posted as well as what I'm sure is to follow in this thread.

Thank God SamusAran hasn't found this thread yet few.

Infantryman wrote:You would think the Imperial Fists, being as they guard Terra, would be the poster boys. But nope.

M.

Thats because they take being perfect and make it EXTREMELY PAINFUL.

Asherian Command wrote:

Retrias wrote:
the purest marine so far is probably the grey knight
none have fallen, all of them psyker, they choose their color because they think it's pure

Well there is one other chapter but no one likes talking about them as they techincally don't really act like a chapter XD. Can you guess the Legion of the Damned.
But The Ultramarines really need to get the boot as the Imperial Fists barely have anything on them except in the Index Astrates and a very brief paragraph.

eh? weren't legion of the damned mutated allegedly still loyal space marine fighting in the warp?

Ultramarines are quite interesting, really, when one looks at them. Sure, they're bland mechanics-wise. Sure, they're overpromoted.

But you know what? They actually care. They want a better society, and they believe in one. They are, just like the Space Wolves or Salamanders, the wide-eyed idealists of the Imperium. The Space Wolves believe civilians deserve life because killing them or sterilizing them is abhorrent; they care about humanity for moral reasons. The Salamanders live with their families, and care about humanity because of that personal experience. But the Ultramarines care less about that; indeed, they just care because of what humanity can become. In the eyes of an Ultramarine, any man or woman in the Imperium can become a hero, any world a utopia, any battle a victory, and that reality is what the fight for. Those who try to destroy that sort of potential, no matter the justification, are thought of as evil. Thus, it is the duty of their chapter to defend against this.

In DnD terms, the Salamanders are neutral good, the Space Wolves are chaotic good, but the Ultramarines fill in that last spot: Lawful good. They feel a duty to the law because the law makes them what they are. Without the codex astartes, the Ultramarines feel they would just be another chapter, but with it, they have pride, and an ideal to strive for. The Ultramarines want to build a better world, and they go about it in the only ways they can. That's why they place such an emphasis on past legends and heroes, because those warriors built the foundation of morals they use in the present.

Often, the black and white idealistic viewpoint which focuses on rules and guidelines can lead to conflicts over concepts such as necessary losses or vengeance. Exterminatus on an inhabited world is considered freakish by the Ultramarines. Guilliman's pride and his attempt to build a better world nearly lead to another Civil War. But even when they are not in the right, their motive is almost admirable. In the Ultramarines book series, other exiled or renegade marines mock the main character for continuing to stick to his mission and duty, even on the face of a planet controlled by Chaos. Yet it is that same determination to promote the chapter ideals that ends up saving him.

The Ultramarines are not the best chapter, nor are they really my favorite, but they are certainly not just "vanilla generic marketable marty stu marines." They have a concept that really should be more interesting. The main problems that plague them are: Being featured in artwork everywhere, being the extreme of the generic chapter, being overplayed, being too similar to the Imperial Fists in a lot of ways, and the issue of the Space Marines codex making the other chapters look inferior.

*Well, there goes my reputation*

Necroman wrote:In DnD terms, the Salamanders are neutral good, the Space Wolves are chaotic good, but the Ultramarines fill in that last spot: Lawful good.

No, in DnD terms, all space marines are evil, seeing as

The point of the Ultramarines is that they're the template. They're the group that actually follows the rules, thus making the chapters that do not significant.

prussia59 wrote:Ultramines are rather annoying, aren't they. You know you know.

At the very least, they are boring. They have no character, other than being 'purer' than other space marines. Which is snobbish.

Which leads to my other point - their arrogance. They can't get enough of themselves.

Furthermore, they have it rather easy, and because they have no faults or blemishes, it takes no faith on their part to follow the emperor. The Blood Angels or the Space Wolves, on the other hand, have obvious and self-destructive traits, but they strive through such obstacles nonetheless, and keep their oaths to emperor and imperium. That takes tremendous strength of faith, whereas the Ultras have no such obstacles - they are simply and strictly goody-goody.

P.S. Remember, this all is speculation about the background... of a game. However ridiculously fun that game might be. Up-tightness will be purged. (*smile*)

Pretty much during the most important battle of the horus heresy, other than the ones on thier turf, they did sod all. They are the arrogant snobs of marines. my

Ultra are by far the most snoby chapter.

I personally find them more interesting than the Blood Ravens, less moany than the Blood Angels and their fanboys don't tend to shout as much as Space Wolves fanboys do in RL...

sigh, where's Manchu when you need him? Manchu now that your a mod I expect at least a 15% decrease in Ultrasmurfs are gay Threads!

I cant be bothered conplaning about marines , if the blood angels where the main space marines we would hate them as much as .

MekanobSamael wrote:

Necroman wrote:In DnD terms, the Salamanders are neutral good, the Space Wolves are chaotic good, but the Ultramarines fill in that last spot: Lawful good.

No, in DnD terms, all space marines are evil, seeing as

Spoiler:

Their entire existence is devoted to violence. Their ethics fall into solidarity, at best. Just like everyone else in the warhammer 40,000 world.

Well. Violence is not inherently evil - not when it is directed at those who would destroy the defenceless. Such extreme methods utilized by marines are the response to the extreme dangers and evils that lurk in the Warhammer universe. There is such a thing as a just war.

And if you say the good book is completely against violence, I will pinch you in the nose. Remember that one part in the Old Testament? When God put exterminatus on two cities? Yeah.

I liked the idea behind them, namely that they are Space Romans with Greek hints in there too, but I think that this is underplayed a bit by GW in order to make them the best damn poster boys they can be.
Truly, I quite like them. They aren't as prevalent as they used to be in terms of who does them, which is nice too.

They are the only chapter that could use The Chosen Ones by Dream Evil as a Theme Song, except all metal has been banned by the Inquisition.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:sigh, where's Manchu when you need him? Manchu now that your a mod I expect at least a 15% decrease in Ultrasmurfs are gay Threads!

Why not eradicate them completely?

Monster Rain wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:sigh, where's Manchu when you need him? Manchu now that your a mod I expect at least a 15% decrease in Ultrasmurfs are gay Threads!

Why not eradicate them completely?

Impossible, they are like the Tyranid "without number". A 15% percent reduction is lofty goal as is; like winning The Battle of Maccrage.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:sigh, where's Manchu when you need him? Manchu now that your a mod I expect at least a 15% decrease in Ultrasmurfs are gay Threads!

Why not eradicate them completely?

Impossible, they are like the Tyranid "without number". A 15% percent reduction is lofty goal as is; like winning The Battle of Maccrage.

Fear denies faith, brother. For those who truly believe in The Emperor, nothing is impossible.

Ultramarines are awesome. I have personally defended their honor here:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/249758.page

It is rather a pity that they get so much grief for being awesome. Everyone knows the real blowhards are the Grey Knights.

I CALGAR!

Their fluff is awfully fanwankish, sure, but there's stuff to like about them. It's easy to see why theirs is the most frequently used geneseed; not having a lot of defining character is actually a good thing as far as the High Lords of Terra are concerned. They're not flamboyant like the Space Wolves, they're not one badly-painted landscape away from turning into Khornate berserkers like the Blood Angels, they're not harboring a deep, dark secret like the Dark Angels, they're not the Bible Belt with chainswords like the Black Templars - and they're not dressed up like mobile McDonald's restaurants like the Imperial Fists. They're the middle of the road professionals, basically, who specialize in nothing but are great at everything.

Manchu wrote:Ultramarines are awesome. I have personally defended their honor here:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/249758.page

It is rather a pity that they get so much grief for being awesome. Everyone knows the real blowhards are the Grey Knights.

I CALGAR!

That thread's a good read from what I've seen so far.

As for their fluff being fanwankish... Well, that's true. :shrug:

Prussia59 -

1. Did I say I was a Christian? Did I say anything about scripture? I am mildly insulted by the implication a) that I am a Christian and would cite a biblical text as the be-all-and-end-all of an ethical argument, and b) that somehow for you basic ethical standards somehow necessarily make someone Christian. There are plenty of ethical people in the world, sir, and the majority of these, like the majority of people, are not Christian.

2. Violence is evil, especially in situations where there are other options. The crusades of the Imperium of Humanity are the attempts of a group more powerful than those around it to dominate them. That is evil. In order to justify the violence committed by the Imperium against all xenos races, you would need to prove a) that, categorically, the Imperium violates the rights of those under its control less than every xenos empire out there (remember, this is an empire that kills billions of its own people), b) that every xenos race would be so substantial a threat to the rule of law in such an empire that annihilation is the only option, and c) that the intentions of all xenos are so malevolent that diplomacy, peaceful cultural exchange, or even mutually exploitative trade, would be worse than war in the long run, and that therefore violence is the only option.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
^The above ethical standpoint is one grounded in the extension of the UDHR to include all sentient beings. If you prefer to operate on a different ethical system (i.e. cultural context, solidarity, or whatever), I will be happy to discuss its implications.

@Prussia59 & MekanobSamael: Relate it to the Ultramarines being cool/lame -OR- take it to the Off Topic Sub-Forum.

Apologies.

My general point goes back to the "goodness" of the Ultramarines. It sort of doesn't matter how much you believe in a "better society" when you mean a better society for *our* people, built on the corpses of indescribably murdered "others." For this reason, if you want to say that Ultramarines are cool, you're going to need to identify a shtick other than that they're "the good guys," because nobody in 40k is the good guys.

I maintain that the flavor function of the Ultramarines is as a baseline i.e. if nobody follows the rules, then not following the rules in a new and interesting way stops being cool. Basically, Ultramarines are kind of lame by themselves, but they're the necessary kind of lame that makes the different spins adopted by the other chapters worth having their own books for.

It's not very useful to evaluate the moral order of the 40k universe by holding it to external standards, perhaps especially those of the real world. Ive described this in the past as an "alignment shift." To use D&D terms, what was once lawful neutral slides into the grimdark version of lawful good. This is because the 40k universe does not share its basic principles with the real world. In the real world, for example, it may very well be possible that people will someday live together without desiring recourse to violence. This is not the case in the world of 40k; this is not even a possibility--except in the final and utter destruction of every divergence. And that's where puritan monodominance comes in. Against this moral landscape, the Ultramarines are indeed paragons of virtue.