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The haphazard nature by which Orc & Goblin armies are mustered results in a huge variety of unruly mobs of squabbling warriors and bla...

Looks like the people hoping they would drop animosity get their hopes dashed.

Animosity is still in their rules indeed.

reds8n wrote:Animosity is still in their rules indeed.

As it should be

I wonder how many SC will be introduced

kenshin620 wrote:I wonder how many SC will be introduced

Ahem... see my original post (although this is by no means concrete information)

I feel bad for people that buy the mounted giant Giant Spider and every game is that thing getting clobbered first turn by artillery and everyone riding it being obliterated. Unless of course they add in a special rule where it catches cannonballs in a web or something.

https://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?aId=14300090a&_requestid=1738753

Well that confirms the march release but little else it seems

Before everyone tells him or points it out, yes, this is on page 2 as well. Ta.

I was looking at the plastic kits and metal kits that won't be changed, and eyeballed which kits did not appear there.

Goblin Wolf Riders
Fanatics
Savage Orcs
Snotlings
Arrer Boys
Rock Lobba
Wolf Chariot
Squig Hoppers
Boar Chariot
Squigs
Spear Chukka
Doom Diver
Pump Wagon
Stone Trolls

Those are all left off the 'Safe List' of kits to buy. Some can probably be discounted (I doubt they would redo Fanatics already, and we know Savage Orcs). Using process of elimination and what's already been mentioned, any bets on what the new kits will be?

Another big kit (this rumored spider) may be cool to look at, but what I'm really liking is the idea of a sneaky night gobbo attachment. Seems really characterful.

Hopefully they can get the points values of common goblins competitive with night goblins. I'd also like to see them continue the skaven book's use of 1/2 point upgrades for the cheap troops. Makes a ton of sense.

Red_Zeke wrote:Hopefully they can get the points values of common goblins competitive with night goblins. I'd also like to see them continue the skaven book's use of 1/2 point upgrades for the cheap troops. Makes a ton of sense.

Point values for Common Goblins will never make them competitive with Night Goblins. It's the sheer number of upgrades you can give to a Night Goblin unit that mean Common Goblins will never be chosen. Consider:

Common Goblin: Ld6 I2 Gobbo. Can be upgraded to a 5+ save (with a 6+ Parry) at +1pt / model.
Night Goblin: Ld5 I3 Gobbo. Comes with a 6+ save (with a 6+ Parry) for free, cannot get a 5+ save. In turn, for approx. 1pt / model, can buy the unit an 83% chance to drop one unit in base-to-base to -1 Strength (which often times is better than the 5+ Save). In addition, may buy for 25pts a model that can do decent casualties to regiments on foot or cavalry units, and can take this upgrade up to three times. Now, in addition, they are getting some sort of mini-assassin for active combat resolution for the unit.

The only thing that can't be countered "directly" without getting into characters is basically the Ld6, and being a Goblin you already know that your unmodified Ld. is a joke barring exceptional rolling.

It's a shame that common goblins are only worth taking for Heroes / Lords, because their models really aren't that bad (if you can ignore the hands, at least, but then most late 90's / early 00 models had horrible hands).

Dez wrote:I was looking at the plastic kits and metal kits that won't be changed, and eyeballed which kits did not appear there.

Of those on the list, I'm not seeing the War Machines get new models any time soon. Fanatics as well, being a pretty recently done box (relatively).

Arrer Boyz... depend on if they remain their own unit, or get thrown in with other Boyz types. If they become a type of unit replacement, I figure they'll probably be kept as they are (direct order metal models, with a few plastics on eBay). GW's not really going to bother with them particularly unless they can sell them as their own unit.

Savage Orcs were confirmed getting plastics, I think.

Snotlings, while not bad models, are old. As are Stone Trolls. As in, older-than-me old. Their replacement would not suprise me in the least. However, because one is an expensive metal, and the other a swarm, I'm not seeing the stone trolls until a new wave of models is put out, and the Snotlings will probably remain under the principle that they're a swarm and GW really doesn't seem to be putting that much interest in new Swarm models.

Pump Wagon, don't see that in any first wave releases. I just don't, not unless it becomes the Orc Doomwheel.

Wolf Riders... maybe. They are a cavalry core choice, and they haven't touched them for a bit. If first wave, it'll probably just be a re-boxing or size change in the box. Second wave, I can see them being done with modified / new models. As such, I expect them to just be re-boxed in the first wave.

Chariots... Boar would be first-wave, taking into account the new boar models, with Wolf being second (or even third) wave depending on whether Wolf Riders get any new Wolves or not.

Squigs and Squig Hoppers make the best bet for a new plastic kit, of those on the list. Whether they'll get one is easily up for debate, but of the models presented (besides the Savage Orcs, which have practically been confirmed getting one now) Squigs are some of the most likely to get plastic'd.


Mind, this is all opinion / speculation.

I'd love some plastic Stone Trolls, but I see this as "probably not happening"...

TBD wrote:

The haphazard nature by which Orc & Goblin armies are mustered results in a huge variety of unruly mobs of squabbling warriors and bla...

Looks like the people hoping they would drop animosity get their hopes dashed.

Yes, because Animosity was only introduced in the last book, and most certainly hasn't been a defining feature of the army for yonks. Honest.

Alpharius wrote:I'd love some plastic Stone Trolls, but I see this as "probably not happening"...

Why not ? It would follow on from other monstrous infantry where they seem to be up-sizeing the models to a more imposing build eg-minotaurs and river trolls and going further back ogres.

Kroothawk wrote:Here a news update by Frgt/10 over at Warseer:

- O&Gs are 100% coming in march
- the night gobbo sneaky unit are attachments to regular NG units like fanatics. similar to assassins but more like 'hangers-on' than 'professional killers' (note that this conflicts with Harrys report that it was a common gobbo addition, but i was told NG *shrugs*)
- plastic savage orcs
- new wurrzagg model from what ive heard (might be wrong on this one though)
- the new book is to old army books in a way that the 8th edition RB is to older edition RBs

reds8n wrote: I would suggest that Goblin players will be happy with this book indeed.
Thanks to Mr. frgt/10 from Warseer

-the night gobbo sneaky unit are attachments to regular NG units like fanatics. similar to assassins but more like 'hangers-on' than 'professional killers' (note that this conflicts with Harrys report that it was a common gobbo addition, but i was told NG *shrugs*)
-plastic savage orcs
-new wurrzagg model from what ive heard (might be wrong on this one though)
- the new book is to old army books in a way that the 8th edition RB is to older edition RBs

thanks reds8n

jprp wrote:

Alpharius wrote:I'd love some plastic Stone Trolls, but I see this as "probably not happening"...

Why not ? It would follow on from other monstrous infantry where they seem to be up-sizeing the models to a more imposing build eg-minotaurs and river trolls and going further back ogres.

Because of the plastic common troll (which many people already use as a Stone Troll replacement) and that GW plays obvious favorites, probably. Just as Night Goblins are their favorite in regard to Gobbos, River Trolls are GW's favorites in regard to Trolls.

And about animosity: It's probably here to stay, but it's still a shame seeing GW go "Here's buffs for this army, here's buffs for that army... let's give these penalties to miscasts and animosity to Orcs." "What about advantages?" "Market their unpredictability / unreliability as fun, we'll let the market do the rest."

And again...animosity has been part of Orcs and Gobbos for YEARS. Only became a problem when people became tournament obsessed.

Animosity is imho one of the best things in Warhammer
Guess it is a pain if you are competitive tourney players.
For me it is a laugh.

New O&G book?
bah! bought a book this year. Not buying another.

Yeah, its a laugh to have the same unit sqaubble for 3 turns as the enemy turns the flank where they should have been.
Or you have the perfect charge lined up for the Boarboys, who looked like they might have been worth their points for once, and they blow it.
Yeah, that's hilarious....

Its really not. It is just frustrating.
"Fun" is the Doomglider, or Pump Wagon. Stupid crazy stuff.
Not having units fight each other instead of the enemy.

If they leave in Animosity, they better give a points bonus to compensate for at least 1/6 of your army doing feth-all every turn.

Well it makes me laugh
but like I said I ain't playing to be competitive

It's better than po faced High Elves or Empire.

In all the fantasy novels I've read so far involving orcs and goblins, animosity as it currently stands doesn't accurately represent their animosity as written. Never does it say they march all the way across the field, and once they get within inches of their opponent, they turn and start fighting each other. It's actually quite the opposite, once an opponent is in sight, their bloodlust takes over and they charge in with reckless abandon, the only time they "squabble" is when things don't go their way.

So, as much as I like the fluff and think animosity should stay, it needs to be changed a lot to properly fit the orcy theme, currently it's just a rather annoying mechanic.

Sorry to go OT, I am really looking forward to the new book, I hope I can run something close to my old Grimgor's 'Ard Boyz list from 6th/storm of chaos.

It's not about being a competitive tournament player.
It's about having a reasonable shot at winning a friendly game.

Animosity turns it into "if I roll well on the Animosity rolls, I won't auto-lose".

It never helps you, it only hurts. There is no bonus to offset the rule.

Never mind animosity. How about those Empire troops only hitting with 50% of their attacks! EMPIRE NEED MOAR POWERZ!

Actually that sounds a fair point Greenbay
As much as they love a fight, the closer they get to an enemy, the desire to bash someone else would surely override the need to bash each other.

In that vein, wouldn't it make sense to roll on a table to see if units are deployed at the start of the game? Like reserves. Roll a 1, the units squabblin'. They won't deploy until after turn 1. Just something that popped into my head while this thread gets thoroughly derailed about animosity like any proppa OnG thread

I'm gonna bet my top dollar that the orc chariot gets an update - even if only to make the boars that pull it along match with the new boar boys.

Mr Mystery wrote:And again...animosity has been part of Orcs and Gobbos for YEARS. Only became a problem when people became tournament obsessed.

Mr Mystery wrote:Never mind animosity. How about those Empire troops only hitting with 50% of their attacks! EMPIRE NEED MOAR POWERZ!

Here's an idea: If you're going to vehemently defend the continuation of something... perhaps you should give a proper reason? Instead of throwing a tantrum and trying to make it look like the people who want to see changes to it are spoiled elitst hobbyists that live to win?

Orc Special Rules, right now, are as follows:

Animosity. Practically only non-harmful when used alongside-
Waaagh. Which still is a liability (16% chance for D6 casualties to your unit, if playing with a cheesy git potentially D6 casualties then D6 S5 hits for every attached BOrc character).
Ignore little 'un panic.
Miscast Table with a one-in-six chance of killing your casting Wizard (or twice as high as the chance for any other army barring Ogres).

Overall, not too bad, but definitely nothing to write home about. Nothing up there counter-acts the negatives of Animosity, and the Miscast table is icing on the cake. You have two (well, three) ways to mitigate Animosity, and only three:
1) Azhag. Only has a 6" bubble, but technically the "safest" negation bought from characters. Catch is he's never going to be sitting within 6" of your units (at least not for long).
2) Black Orc bosses. You can get your units to actually behave as normal (not buffs, behave as normal)... at the cost of D6 S5 hits on the unit. Which can cost you anywhere from 0 points in casualties, to over 100pts (if put in something like Boar Boyz).
3) Not taking units that suffer Animosity. Unfortunately, all the units that don't suffer from such are Special or Rare, or don't count towards minimum core requirements (Snotlings).

Of the above, none remove the threat of animosity. Furthermore, they all (barring the third) do nothing to address the 6 result on animosity. Why is the 6 bad, not all good? Forcing archers to move, and thus suffer an additional -1 to hit. Forcing a unit into a combat you really don't want them in, thus causing a break in your lines as they're suddenly ran off and you have a nice healthy enemy regiment in the center of your lines.

Animosity adds character to the army... but that's it. About nine times out of ten, the character leads to frustration instead of amusement. Warhammer's a game, as in played for fun. I get maybe one-to-two games a week on average of it. I don't spend the time leaving my house, going to the shop, and putting all the stuff in and out of cases merely so I can call just how badly I will be beaten / where everything will go wrong in a game (seriously: Watch a long-playing O&G player for a few days. They'll start calling when they'll fail their animosity rolls, often with alarming degrees of success, and the battles turn from "Close and fun" into "O&G army comes apart at seams).

To put it into another game's terms, imagine in Monopoly if every one in six turns you counted as landing on someone's hotels, and another one in six turns you "merely" counted as landing on their three-house property. But it starts from Turn 1, before anyone has even had a chance to buy property (the money instead going into free parking, of which the O&G can never claim the hotel money in the space). Furthermore, if either of those two-in-six turns still result in paying another player, you must still pay them.

You're the only person at the table this happens with. No-one else has the House / Hotel paying rule in addition to the regular gameplay. Everyone else is telling you "Stop playing to win, jeeze. Whiney bugger," whenever you bring this fact up.


I would be fine if Animosity were like 6th edition mixed with Storm-of-Chaos units within range of the idol. In that situation, Animosity happened one-in-six turns. You could mitigate it with Black Orcs turning it into a 1-in-36 turns bit, and you didn't suffer casualties. If you were within range of an enemy unit to charge and you failed animosity, you could elect to suffer the normal result or choose to charge the enemy unit in range (that being your price to pay for animosity instead, rushing forward to hit the enemy in an unruly mob). Heck, even cutting out the SoC bit, I'd be happier with animosity as it was instead of animosity as it is.

Something is telling me that that are not going to be comedic anymore..(GRIMDARK)

I think Minsc makes good points. Losing control of your units/character whatever in a game is never fun no matter the game type, unless they 1: get crazy awesome and butcher things when they do, or 2: are so cheap you don't mind because they are not critical due to the redundancy of cheap units. I like the idea of 2d6ing for it, 2 and 12 or 2/3 and 11/12 giving the weird results. Either that or a points drop for all units that have it. I actually would prefer the 2d6 though, just because a points decrease will likely mean you less screwed when animosity doesn't cause issues, and you have a large advantage when it doesn't. Hard to say though depending on the points drop.

You forgot Option 4. Realise that if winning is everything to you, you might not want to play Orcs and Gobbos.

I respect that the Orc Warriors have dated quite well, but this would have been a good opportunity to at least recut the sprue and release them in boxes of ten. Instead, it looks like they're going to stick with that stupid box of 16 standard orcs and 3 command models...

...unless recutting the sprue doesn't count as replacing the models in GW's eyes.