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Limbo- try this list. its 1099 points right now, leaving you 400 to fill in as you desire. Its all about messing up the leadership so that the boneswords cause ID easier, and the doom doesn't have to work as hard. I call it my "Unholy choir". Basically a variation on stealer shock, using a lot of broodlords to drop leadership by 1 per broodlord.
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unholy choir 1099 pts
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HQ
Tyranid Prime ToxScyBoneswords No armor saves, instant death unless leadership passed on 3d6
Tyranid Prime ToxScyBoneswords

Elites
Doom In A Barbed Pod Leadership test on 3d6, a no saves wound for each point failed by

Heavy Support
Carnifex Dakka -1 Leadership from devourer

Troops
Broodlord + 4 Genestealers Aura of despair, -1 leadership to every unit within 12"
Broodlord + 4 Genestealers
Broodlord + 4 Genestealers

Broodlord + 4 Genestealers
Broodlord + 4 Genestealers
Broodlord + 4 Genestealers
===================================

Ha, that looks like a fun list!
I'd probably add a Tyrant w/The Horror, Psychic Scream and Old Adversary, also possibly adrenal gland since he'll probably get to charge.Deathleaper too, just to be sure that the enemys HQ will have really low LD. That leaves 55 points, and I guess those will have to go to beefing out the genestealers squads abit. It's too bad that the Broodlord + Psychic Scream combo don't work, since you use Aura of Despair in the assualt phase

But it does do it until the end of the following player turn. The DoomOM loves that. Say 4 broodlords are within 12" of units within 6" of the doom when their shooting phase starts.

...How do you mess with the leadership of units that are protected by those big metal box things? Pretty much whatever you spend those other 400 pts on, unless it's 8 Hive Guard, that list is going to get tabled by even a moderately competitive mechanised list.

Well, when the big metal boxes get close to the genestealers and then get out, GS usually attack first, even if assaulted. But I'm usually assaulting with them. Sometimes even multiassaulting those boxes. Multiple hypnotic gazes means all the really painful stuff coming out of them should be on lockdown.

Carnifex usually does a good job of killing boxes too.
And sure, more hive guard is a nice strategy. Its bland though.
Furthermore? Who cares? The man asked for a list to mess with LD. There it is.

Doomthumbs wrote:But it does do it until the end of the following player turn. The DoomOM loves that. Say 4 broodlords are within 12" of units within 6" of the doom when their shooting phase starts.

Ah, didn't read carefully enough, awesome!

"Who cares"? Aha, sorry, for a moment I thought this thread was in the 40K Tactics section.

I don't think you can rely on mechanised armies getting close to genestealers, or vice versa, unless the mech player wants that to happen. Don't get me wrong -- I love genestealers -- but they're not enough by themselves.

Maybe if you know you're going to face Mech, don't use that list?
This isn't for competative purposes, just for illustration and because he asked.
8 Hive guard do make that list pretty damn good competitively though. Kinda how tyranids do that at all. We're aware.
So yeah, who cares?
Only someone seeking to detract without adding anything.

Doomthumbs wrote:Limbo- try this list. its 1099 points right now, leaving you 400 to fill in as you desire. Its all about messing up the leadership so that the boneswords cause ID easier, and the doom doesn't have to work as hard. I call it my "Unholy choir". Basically a variation on stealer shock, using a lot of broodlords to drop leadership by 1 per broodlord.
============
unholy choir 1099 pts
============

HQ
Tyranid Prime ToxScyBoneswords No armor saves, instant death unless leadership passed on 3d6
Tyranid Prime ToxScyBoneswords

Elites
Doom In A Barbed Pod Leadership test on 3d6, a no saves wound for each point failed by

Heavy Support
Carnifex Dakka -1 Leadership from devourer

Troops
Broodlord + 4 Genestealers Aura of despair, -1 leadership to every unit within 12"
Broodlord + 4 Genestealers
Broodlord + 4 Genestealers

Broodlord + 4 Genestealers
Broodlord + 4 Genestealers
Broodlord + 4 Genestealers
===================================

Thats a great idea......

2x 3 Hive guard is only 300pts

also what would you put the primes with?

The first paragraph of the shooting phase section (pg 15) discusses that you only shoot in the phase of your own turn.

th3eviltwin wrote:The first paragraph of the shooting phase section (pg 15) discusses that you only shoot in the phase of your own turn.

um

Who are you referring to?

Also Doom's entry says it can use that power at the start of every shooting phase even the enemy's

He is referring to the supposition that something like a Spore Pod can shoot in an enemy shooting phase I believe.

calypso2ts wrote:He is referring to the supposition that something like a Spore Pod can shoot in an enemy shooting phase I believe.

To be fair it does say:
"The Mycetic Spore automatically shoots the closest enemy unit in each shooting phase unless it is engaged in close combat."

If thats not what GW meant then its horrible wording on their part, they could of at least mentioned owning shooting phase.

Gibbsey, thanks. It IS horrible wording. Every other codex has it specified. Blood angels and Dark eldar (I think the two most recent after nids?) specify ownership in every single case of an unqualified 'Phase'.
I've also provided extensive research on when its mentioned in the BRB and other codices. Still, I get rude responses.

Its nothing too pressing for me though. I don't have any money on it, for example. I just think it's cool.

Kinda like this...

Hello there, I am a new member (actually my first post) and have no full knowledge of the rules. I understand that you want people to post their lists but unfortumately I have none.
I have an idea though and I would like to contribute it in case you could build a list with it The theme would be a birthing army. HQ The Parasite of Mortrex, in order to give birth to Rippers ala Alien and Troops some Tervigons so you get more units. The tactical point would be to get more points on the table than you are "normally" allowed.

Falainothiras wrote:Hello there, I am a new member (actually my first post) and have no full knowledge of the rules. I understand that you want people to post their lists but unfortumately I have none.
I have an idea though and I would like to contribute it in case you could build a list with it The theme would be a birthing army. HQ The Parasite of Mortrex, in order to give birth to Rippers ala Alien and Troops some Tervigons so you get more units. The tactical point would be to get more points on the table than you are "normally" allowed.

I've seen multiple tervigons a few times, and the Parasite is a viable HQ choice especially if you're worried about outflankers, but just those units will not be enough to build a viable army. It's missing can-openers to deal with tanks and power armor and really lacks punch. Of course, this is also only 800 points or so, so it leaves plenty of room to have, ya know, the rest of your army be able take advantage of the wall of flesh you're putting out there.

*******

Here's something I'm surprised I haven't seen discussed in this thread: Has anyone tried a Mycetic Spore army? It's rough that bugs don't get a version of drop pod assault to go with bug drop pods, but does that make it not viable? Or is there something I'm missing?

Hey man just read ur post, I like alot of it, (Best being about gaunts and stealers blocking a raider xD) And im not guna go on about my thoughts on the MC shooting both turns, but even if you can, it's a stupid rule "Relentless" if it does and is unfair (Ima nid player) and I still think it's cheap, even if it is right, I would never play that way because it's CHEAP!

I gotta admit, that this thread amused me - at first. GW's RAW is often shabby to a degree that makes me want to place my face in my palm whilst shaking my head.

But as for the sake of contributing in form of an argument, the rules regarding MCs -stated or not - are pretty clear. Whether or not RAW's are unclear, there shouldn't be any doubt about such matters, as to if Monstrous Creatures are allowed to shoot in the opponents Shooting Phase or not.
RAW's or not, it is common sense for the average Wargamer, that it is way out of line - RAW's or not.

Page 15 clearly indicates this;
"In a Warhammer 40.000 battle, we split up the firing so that each player's forces fires during the Shooting phase of his own turn."

Whether or not Page 51 on MCs specifies otherwise, it is clearly in violation with this rule.

Birthing armies work really well. On multiple levels.
Picture this, 1500 point tournament, one hour time limit.
4 Tervigons with 2Catalyst/2onslaught and 3 groups of 30 gaunts, and one Tyranofex w/rupture = 1415 pts, 85 to spend on other stuff you wont need (maybe even don't play with those points! Balls out! Maybe TS/ AG for every Tervigon for balls deep ).
Tervigon spawning and moving all the gaunts is going to take forever. I mean its going to be a loooong time. So with 4 tervigons and 3 gant broods, thats at least 8 scoring units, 2 of them (usually 2 groups of 30) can move run and shoot. Huuuuge range on the 4 spawned broods. 6" placement, 6" movement, ~4" run, then maybe they get to shoot 12". Thats about 28" range from the 12" mark you started on with the tervigons. You're shooting 4" into their deployment zone with several units, picking off soft KPS and the clock rolls on.

Odds are, you aren't going to play the full game. Or even to the end of turn 3. So with a 18" Onslaughted movement range, those termigants are almost assuredly going to be in range of Objectives. Claimed or contested, all across the board. And objectives are 2/3 of the games you'll play, either seize ground or capture and control.
When the games are for killpoints, spawn gants, but either move them out of LOS(for embarassingly small target broods), or move them into cover, shoot, and then go to ground. Its one of the most annoying things ever. Still sucks up time, but most likely no extra KPs. In the meantime, Rupture fex, and the tervigons go for KPs, and 90+ TS/AG gants that move, run and shoot to close distance and then counter attack are pretty nasty too.
At least for the first hour or so.

So when the time gets called and the last moves get made, where are the Tyranids on the board? Anywhere you want them to be, thanks to onslaught. Kps looking nice too. Tervigons take up so much time its ridiculous.
Again, the spoonfed basic strategies for each game type based on a time control strategem would be:
Capture and Control:
Almost assuredly a win. Opponent is planning to have stuff arrive at your objective later in the game to contest, and have troops to hold his own. Just deploy your crazy blocks of nids across from his objective and hold your own with troop tervigons and 90 gants clustered so theres no waaaaaay to get in there in time. Send everything else forward to contest and die. Hose down easy targets for secondary mission objectives KPs.
Seize Ground:
Much the same as above. Hold an objective each with the 30 man squads and run everything else headfirst into a huge mess that takes forever to resolve, even for rules experts. T
Killpoints:
Here you must play a little more conservatively. You have 8 KPs to start out with, and they're all pretty beefy. T-fex needs to be protected as he shoots down 1kp a turn if he's lucky. Tervigons attack anything with an armor value, being onslaughted forwards. Certain armies will table you pretty easily in a KP list if you're not careful. Just hope that they respond poorly to being totally mobbed. Green tide is just destroyed by this list.


Matt, Relentless deals with rapid fire and heavy weapons, Tyranids have none of these. I'm talking about per Phase. Per unspecified phase. Every new generation codex (Except Tyranids for some reason) is replete with this same rule: Every time a power or ability lets you know when to use it, it will specify just your phase or turn. Or text like "Owning players" or "your" phase/turn. Something to limit it to just the controlling players turn. Blood Angels and Dark Eldar codices are crawling with examples. And if it doesn't? If it is an unspecified phase/turn, it can be done during both players phase/turn. Force weapons are a prime example. As are Ymgarl Genestealers, and Spore mines as mentioned in the OP.
So why not Monstrous Creature shooting?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Billinator wrote:
Page 15 clearly indicates this;
"In a Warhammer 40.000 battle, we split up the firing so that each player's forces fires during the Shooting phase of his own turn."
Whether or not Page 51 on MCs specifies otherwise, it is clearly in violation with this rule.

Page 9 clearly states:
"There are times when a player is allowed to preform actions during their opponents turn (fighting in an assault being the most common example)."

"It may also be convenient to interrupt a players turn because of some event occuring."

"Whatever the reason, after the interruption, the turn sequence continues as normal."

So its just a matter of politely explaining that my Carnifex unit is going to fire its two weapons this phase during any time of my opponents Shooting Phase that so suits me. When I have finished interrupting his turn (again, as politely as possible), he can resume his Shooting as normal, until such a time when it would be convenient for me to fire any other units that were Monstrous Creatures.


Its so far out of line. But its not out of the realm of legal.

Billinator wrote:I gotta admit, that this thread amused me - at first. GW's RAW is often shabby to a degree that makes me want to place my face in my palm whilst shaking my head.

But as for the sake of contributing in form of an argument, the rules regarding MCs -stated or not - are pretty clear. Whether or not RAW's are unclear, there shouldn't be any doubt about such matters, as to if Monstrous Creatures are allowed to shoot in the opponents Shooting Phase or not.
RAW's or not, it is common sense for the average Wargamer, that it is way out of line - RAW's or not.

Page 15 clearly indicates this;
"In a Warhammer 40.000 battle, we split up the firing so that each player's forces fires during the Shooting phase of his own turn."

Whether or not Page 51 on MCs specifies otherwise, it is clearly in violation with this rule.

1. Its not about Mc's shooting its the mycetic spore

2. The general rule is ignored, the rule is more specific because it is limited to that units shooting. (specific trumps general rule)


Anyway the rule was badly written for mycetic spore it says it fires at the closest enemy ever shooting phase (but like "every turn" this can mean just your own)

The doom is more specific its rule says its power can be used every shooting phase even your opponents, since it specifies the opponents turn then its allowed

Mc's dont have a rule to fire every turn, but they can fire 2 weapons in a turn


Automatically Appended Next Post:
DoomThumbs where are you reading this MC rule?

I havent seen anything like that...

Pg 51, and I quoted it in the OP

Doomthumbs wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

Billinator wrote:
Page 15 clearly indicates this;
"In a Warhammer 40.000 battle, we split up the firing so that each player's forces fires during the Shooting phase of his own turn."
Whether or not Page 51 on MCs specifies otherwise, it is clearly in violation with this rule.

Page 9 clearly states:
"There are times when a player is allowed to preform actions during their opponents turn (fighting in an assault being the most common example)."

"It may also be convenient to interrupt a players turn because of some event occuring."

"Whatever the reason, after the interruption, the turn sequence continues as normal."

So its just a matter of politely explaining that my Carnifex unit is going to fire its two weapons this phase during any time of my opponents Shooting Phase that so suits me. When I have finished interrupting his turn (again, as politely as possible), he can resume his Shooting as normal, until such a time when it would be convenient for me to fire any other units that were Monstrous Creatures.


Its so far out of line. But its not out of the realm of legal.

While not out of the realm of legal, it is far out of the realm of logic and being a "good sport", the way i see it!

I DO get your point, however, and i have to say that it amuses me. But in a scenario, where it came down to how the RAW describes what is legal and what isn't, i'd still stand my ground at my previous statement; It is in violation of one of the first rules of shooting and therefore cannot be utilized.

In any case, the main issue here is lack of strict information, such as a clear indication, that any such "event" (as to what is allowed in the opponents turns) involves A, B and C, but never X, Y and Z.

But as final to this matter, i more than agree that the RAW's are poorly written, and does come off as rather sloppy

---

Anyways, have any of you seen this thread:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/319613.page

I have learned so much from this thread, and with an excellent sparring partner to the 40k scene, i've had the chance to put alot of examples to this thread to practical use; just to find that i was confirming everything written

Glad thats final then.

But seriously, if you're here to argue rules or say how awesome 9 hive guard and 2 tervigons are I'm past the point of caring much.
Thats a great thread and all, but I feel its more of a compilation of thoughts on the new codex / what we were all already thinking.

What I'm trying to do in this thread is innovate, not imitate.

Added new strategies for using harpies. Well, They could be strategies. It could just be cheese.

Now that's very creative doomthumb, but if you showed up to a match with a Harpy that has a 24" pole up it's rear, I think most people would "accidently" push it over several times during the game. Would rather hear some tacticts that doesn't involve modeling in a fun way =)

Thats fine, its resin and glue. That can be repaired.

The shame that comes from not being able to kill a harpy except with your best guns that should be firing elsewhere? That stuff lasts.

Usually though my harpies walk. These would be specialty flying bases representing the harpies command of the sky.

Doomthumbs, do the people you play with actually let you get away with that kind of nonsense? Do you have a pic of your harpy on its 25" dowel, and another pic of you actually using it in a game and not being beaten around the head with it by your opponent?

Ian- No photos yet but it will be pretty majestic when finished. Really gives a feel for the fluff, if you ask me.

Mostly I play in a situation where 2000 points of Tyranids play against another 2000 points of whatever, with an hour time limit.
At least at local tourneys. For nids, an hour means that the game is done at the end of turn two or the middle of three. Which puts me at just the start of getting to assault after being shot at by missiles and other stuff. Sorry, nids.
Its a bunch of bogus crap. But technically no rules against it is what I'm told. I'm not getting beat at playing 40k, I'm getting beat at "the rules of the tournament". I figure its about my turn for some of that.

As for my getting beat about the head, no, no one seems that childish yet. Do you do that when you have a tantrum?

Well -- no, I don't have tantrums, nor do I beat people about the head, but I certainly wouldn't play against someone wanting to field a model that is five times higher up than anything else on the battlefield, any more than I would want to play against someone who'd based their Tervigon on a 6' x 4' base ("there's no official model after all, so how can we know?") so the opponent didn't have room to deploy.

Really -- an hour to play a 2000 point game? That's... not quite as silly as the 25" flying base idea, but it's pretty silly. Why does anyone run a tournament where the standard games are only half-games, or less? Why does anyone else go to them? Why does no-one local run tournaments where you can actually play a game of 40K, instead of a third of a game?