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The Decapitator wrote:

theHandofGork wrote:

The Decapitator wrote: The VAT increase and GWs price increases shouldn't be compared as they are not the same thing and as such shouldn't be talked about as if they were.

Except that's what you did in the title of this thread:

"Re:GW price increase! But it's not their fault!!"

You even used three exclamation points.

And even though a VAT increase isn't a price increase, you do call a VAT decrease a price decrease:

When the VAT went down to 15% GW REDUCED it's prices

Of course, this only happened in the UK, I'm pretty sure here in the US and the rest of the world the prices stayed the same.



So now you don't want to call the VAT increase a price increase? Then what's the point of this thread? I really can't grasp what you're trying to say.

The title of this thread was meant to be ironic, seen as most people already seem to think GW increases it's prices too much as it is. The use of exclamation marks was also meant to portray the 'urgency' and 'importance' of the content if this thread. I also think it's pretty clear but I'll break it down for you anyway, the reason that a VAT increase and a price increase should not be compared is because one is decided by GW as a business and the other is forced in them by an external source and is as such taken out of their hands. And before you say, "Yes, well, GW don't have to pass this on to their customers", Then I suggest you read one of the previous posts where it is explained by a few different people why this is not a very good idea.

As for you not understanding what I am trying to say, I'd be inclined to think the problem may actually lie with you. I think I've explained the purpose of this thread pretty clearly, in fact others have commented on this, and as the vast majority of people who have passed comment on this thread understood it perfectly well, so as I said I'd be inclined to think the problem lies with you.

Why is it that everything on Dakka seems to devolve in arguments and pseudo-insults disguised as constructive comments? I started this thread to inform people of the upcoming VAT increase, and whilst I understand that I've made my personal views known on the subject, I don't understand why people who disagree with the views feel the need to make certain comments instead of just posting their own thoughts on the matter. It always seems to get personal, and there's simply no need for it.

Way to call out a troll, OP. He was being a turd for the simple sake of being one. If he's smart enough to string together a sentence, he can understand your very simple point of "Hey everyone. GW will be raising prices soon, but they arent doing it to increase profits. They're doing it to maintain their current margin because their taxes are going up."




Anyways, while I understand that GW simply cannot eat a 2.5% hike in prices, it might in fact be a time for them to consider an approach of more sales @ lower margin to see if that nets more money in a financial period due to increased volume of purchases. I think someone else had a post similar to this, and I just wanted to say it in a slightly more plain manner to see if anyone agrees.

I'm glad I just got everything I needed in a big order for my current project. Stupid government, I call revolution and hope someone stabs somebody in British parliament.

I think my problem is that you use inconsistent reasoning.

You don't want to call a tax increase a price increase (though you've labeled it a price increase in both the title of the thread and the original post). But by that logic you can't call a tax decrease a price cut either (which you do). You can try to cover your mistakes by claiming irony for the first point, but you still haven't addressed the second.


You've also ignored several relevant facts:
1. GW prices are already higher then others on the market
2. GW higher prices don't necessarily mean better quality (see Warlord, Perry Bros etc. for examples of similar quality minis which cost less).
3. The prior "price reduction" (ie tax decrease) by GW only affected the UK, for the majority of us, the prices have only moved up.
4. GW has failed to deliver on its claim that moving to plastics would result in lower prices but instead consistently raised its prices even when production costs have lowered.



This is not a personal attack. A personal attack would be: "You're a redshirt who doesn't know what he's talking about." Or maybe the one describing me above: "He was being a turd for the simple sake of being one"


This is a constructive comment: While you say the tax increase isn't a price increase, you also say that GW will further adjust their prices to "business/consumer friendly and acceptable prices." The example you give is moving a box of termies from £27.46 to £28.00. This is a GW price increase, however, as it is "not forced in [sic] them by an external source." So is it just a tax increase, or are we talking about both a tax increase and a GW price rise?

Here is another constructive comment: GW prices are already very high for the product they offer, this small increase is enough for me (and likely others) to buy less. How is this a good decision in a bad economy?

And another one: you're logic is inconsistent and you ignore counter-arguments and relevant facts.

"your", if you're going to highlight others spelling mistakes.

You havent raised any relevant facts that can be ignored. The 2.5% increase in VAT is a price rise, just not a GW price rise - it is a government enforced price rise. Yes, the consumer pays more - but the alternative would push GW into the red (yes, shop margins are that thin. More on that later)

There was also no "will" raise prices to a more business consumer friendly level - just a "may". It will likely depend on whether the VAT rise is permanent or, like the drop, temporary. If permanent then they will simply roll any price rise into their normal schedule. Easy.

You also apparently have little understanding of how thin a margin GW stores, and by consequence the prices they have to sell to resellers, run on. Unlike the competiors you mention GW have a proper retail presence that actually benefits ALL hobby gamers as it gets new people into the game, but this is expensive. So it is a good decision as it keeps the stores open, keeps new gamers coming into the hobby, and keeps the hobby alive *in the long term* - so it is a good Long term decision.

Lastly: the CC decided years back that GW have to operate as a virtual monopoly in this arena, as they are monopoly producer and seller of miniatures. Meaning they actually have very little leeway in pricing - they can't cut prices as they want, they cannot (as in, CANNOT) hold sales, and so on.

You also apparently have little understanding of how thin a margin GW stores, and by consequence the prices they have to sell to resellers, run on. Unlike the competiors you mention GW have a proper retail presence that actually benefits ALL hobby gamers as it gets new people into the game, but this is expensive. So it is a good decision as it keeps the stores open, keeps new gamers coming into the hobby, and keeps the hobby alive *in the long term* - so it is a good Long term decision.

QTF

don't get me wrong I think GW is expensive, but they are damn nice models. I'm not saying that Perry's are bad but IMHO GW are better mainly because of the multipart plastic kits but that might be just personal taste.

Also GW offers something no other wargame does Stores/Hobbycenters whatever you want to call them. My FLGS I get on well with all the guys and they are cool with you just hanging out and talking about the hobby, also the guys who run it won't tolerate TFG's where as a few of the private groups I've been to almost seem to be run by the TFG's

I don't see Flames of war or anyone else with stores. Yeah I know there are plenty of clubs around where you can get the same experience but for them to offer this service (which i can't imagine makes them much profit wise) is brilliant.


This thread seems to be fast getting away from the original point. There is a price hike in the UK but its not their fault its the Gov, let hope it doesn't last for long.

theHandofGork wrote:I think my problem is that you use inconsistent reasoning.

You don't want to call a tax increase a price increase (though you've labeled it a price increase in both the title of the thread and the original post). But by that logic you can't call a tax decrease a price cut either (which you do). You can try to cover your mistakes by claiming irony for the first point, but you still haven't addressed the second.

You are arguing for the sake of arguing over semantics and quoting things out of proportion. They might increase the prices, after the tax rise, to make things easier to see such as rounding up odd figures but the OP didn't say that it would definately be the case; it was conjecture from other posters which mainly fuelled this bit though.

Your first real objection was the OP using three exclamation marks! Now you're doing all you can to argue the toss for some bizarre reason with some spurious claims and strange accusations.

Chill out. You'll need to borrow my avatar soon.

Then close the shops, give the managers the opportunity to open franchises or better still, power them into FLGS.

The shops are kept open to recruit new gamers, if the great leviathan GW actually had someone with the dimmest of understanding of the internet and willingness to invest in clubs and enable independant stores instead of treating them as the enemy, GW wouldn't need to maintain the highstreet presence.

The company is polluted with a paranoia about maintaining absolute control from the top and unwillingness to cooperate and support anything that doesn't have the corporate logo all over it.

Someone should explain to Kirby and co that they are not Weyland Yutani and that cooperation and mutual support within 'the hobby' might avail them more than antagonistic zealotry.


And yes, the price raise will not ultimately be 'to the letter' of the VAT % but rather a rounding up figure for profit and ease of pricing. Looks like I left the UK just in time... Unless they somehow try to justify the US prices suffering a hike at the same time through some convoluted excuse.

Seeing as how 'the internet' forms only a tiny proportion of the greater hobby community, and that even people who buy from stockists benefit GW (because let's face it - the difference you pay in a store really only helps to keep the store open - stockists still pay the stock prices), it doesn't make a whole damn lot of difference.

As far as I've seen GW is great with independent stockists -my old FLGS (I recently moved) was heavily supported by GW and there are no GW stores in the aussie state of Tasmania simply because the independents down there do a great job on their own. The 'markup' is not really a big deal if you're not really a member of the real-life hobby community... since there's no reason for you to contribute and pay real-life prices. Maelstrom is great in that case - if you don't need GW's support to develop your hobby on a personal level then why pay them to do it? I for one am happy to pay full prices at local stores (GW chain or not) because my local clubs and community are actually a pretty important part of the hobby in my opinion.

The internet is pretty cool - hell, I work in IT and I'm never off it - but it's a small fish with a big mouth when it comes down to reality.

MGS - youre talking trash about the price rise. Have you seen the new price lists? No? Then youre just hypothesising. Dont pretend its an absolute.

Fifty wrote:Hey, maybe GW will soak up the VAT increase themselves rather than pass it on to the customers...

I actually laughed at that one. There is no way they'll soak up a few percentage in cost.

Ok guys, I'm really ill at the moment, and haven't really got it in me to spell out to very few argumentative posters what my posts mean. It wouldn't matter anyway as any reason I give for something is quickly brushed aside as me making things up! I mean seriously, I explain why I posted this thread title as it is, ironic, and am told that I'm just making things up to cover my back?!? I wasn't aware that you were in my head at the time of the post! What an absolutely ridiculous statement, and to be honest I wasn't going to even bother replying as it's just a waste of time. Arguing for arguements sake? What do you get out of it? Does it make you feel better?? I am honestly amazed how this thread has gone from a notification of a VAT hike with an ironic title in order to get people interested (no really!) to another thread where some people just can't resist pulling apart peoples comments and putting them down in order to try and get one up on you. Were you bullied at school?

Now I did want to say thank you to (thankfully the majority!) of people who did understand my post and seem to be just as frustrated with those Dakkites who feel they 'have' to argue with everything they see which they don't agree with. Please by all means have your opinions, and please express them! But don't jump all over other peoples posts just because you don't like what they are saying!

Anyway I'm getting sidetracked, thank you guys who understood my post and have saved me from having to write out yet another post banging my head against a brick wall. It is very much appreciated and I hope we can point this thread back in the right direction.

VAT in the UK will be rising to 20% on January 4th, GW Is having to increase it prices to take this raise into account.

Discuss.

Oh, f k it.

You're right. GW prices aren't already high, and if they are, it's not their fault. . It's not their fault that their bloated infrastructure can't handle a 2.5% tax increase. Passing this onto the customer is the only thing they can do- it's not their fault..

That is, of course, the point of this thread right? It's not their fault.

I concede, GW is totally in the right, yet again. It's not their fault.






What's happened to Dakka?

Yay! Eventually, it sinks in.

nosferatu1001 wrote:MGS - youre talking trash about the price rise. Have you seen the new price lists? No? Then youre just hypothesising. Dont pretend its an absolute.

Did you not read the GW staff here confirming the price increase?

Reread the thread, then shut up.

Oh shut up MGS. In context that post was about your supposition that the prices would be increased by *more* than the VAT increase.

They are not.

theHandofGork wrote:Oh, f k it.

You're right. GW prices aren't already high, and if they are, it's not their fault. . It's not their fault that their bloated infrastructure can't handle a 2.5% tax increase. Passing this onto the customer is the only thing they can do- it's not their fault..

That is, of course, the point of this thread right? It's not their fault.

I concede, GW is totally in the right, yet again. It's not their fault.

Why shouldn't pass on a rise in tax? Define why their infrastructure is bloated, without mentioning Stores which are the cornerstone of their business model? Please provide evidence that other wargames manufacturers don't operate on a similar markup?






What's happened to Dakka?

Why shouldn't pass on a rise in tax? Define why there infrastructure is bloated, without mentioning Stores which are the cornerstone of their business model? Please provide evidence that other wargames manufacturers don't operate on a similar markup?

Fifty wrote:Hey, maybe GW will soak up the VAT increase themselves rather than pass it on to the customers...

HA!

theHandofGork wrote:Oh, f k it.

You're right. GW prices aren't already high, and if they are, it's not their fault. . It's not their fault that their bloated infrastructure can't handle a 2.5% tax increase. Passing this onto the customer is the only thing they can do- it's not their fault..

That is, of course, the point of this thread right? It's not their fault.

I concede, GW is totally in the right, yet again. It's not their fault.






What's happened to Dakka?

You know the funniest thing about all this, is that you quite clearly have a problem with GWs pricing as you believe it to be too expensive. Now forgive me if I am wrong, and I apologise if I am, but I'm pretty sure that you are not contractually obliged to take part in this particular hobby! Someone doesn't have a gun to your head 24/7 forcing you to pay for something you obviously have a real problem with! If you don't like it, then don't do it! If you think it's too damn expensive, then stop buying it! Now I know that there are things we all grumble about price wise, there are things which I would prefer to be cheaper. But if I felt so strongly about it that I felt the need to whinge and moan and write sarcastic and facetious messages about it on the Internet, I'd just stop buying it! It's really not that difficult a concept to grasp! And before you say "well, I've already stopped buying GW products!". Then what's your problem? It doesn't affect you so stop seeking every available opportunity to slam GW like your on a personal crusade to shut them down.

In your post you have to descend into sarcasm in an attempt to make a point, but you quite clearly could not have read any of the previous posts! I don't recall saying that anything other than the upcoming VAT increase was not GW's fault?!? And I'm pretty sure nobody else said such things either. So in clutching at straws because you are quite obviously inept at forming a cohesive and accurate argument, you have succeeded in ridiculing yourself. Well done sir!

So can we please, please, please get back on topic! Does anyone have any further infor regarding the VAT increase? ie: Actual price points?

*Edited for spelling.

SpankHammer III wrote:

You also apparently have little understanding of how thin a margin GW stores, and by consequence the prices they have to sell to resellers, run on. Unlike the competiors you mention GW have a proper retail presence that actually benefits ALL hobby gamers as it gets new people into the game, but this is expensive. So it is a good decision as it keeps the stores open, keeps new gamers coming into the hobby, and keeps the hobby alive *in the long term* - so it is a good Long term decision.

QTF

don't get me wrong I think GW is expensive, but they are damn nice models. I'm not saying that Perry's are bad but IMHO GW are better mainly because of the multipart plastic kits but that might be just personal taste.

Also GW offers something no other wargame does Stores/Hobbycenters whatever you want to call them. My FLGS I get on well with all the guys and they are cool with you just hanging out and talking about the hobby, also the guys who run it won't tolerate TFG's where as a few of the private groups I've been to almost seem to be run by the TFG's

I don't see Flames of war or anyone else with stores. Yeah I know there are plenty of clubs around where you can get the same experience but for them to offer this service (which i can't imagine makes them much profit wise) is brilliant.


This thread seems to be fast getting away from the original point. There is a price hike in the UK but its not their fault its the Gov, let hope it doesn't last for long.

The stores should pay for themselves.

IF not then GW should close them becuase they are a bad business choice.

Then they could lower there prices and maybe........(GASP) Advertise!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I love GW product but no longer buy retail and think the stores are kind of a waste. If they used the money the apparently spend on the stores to advertise and run larges scale events more then they could draw in equally as much if not more customers.

(I actually got in through a sibling who got in through DOW)

ChocolateGork wrote:

SpankHammer III wrote:

You also apparently have little understanding of how thin a margin GW stores, and by consequence the prices they have to sell to resellers, run on. Unlike the competiors you mention GW have a proper retail presence that actually benefits ALL hobby gamers as it gets new people into the game, but this is expensive. So it is a good decision as it keeps the stores open, keeps new gamers coming into the hobby, and keeps the hobby alive *in the long term* - so it is a good Long term decision.

QTF

don't get me wrong I think GW is expensive, but they are damn nice models. I'm not saying that Perry's are bad but IMHO GW are better mainly because of the multipart plastic kits but that might be just personal taste.

Also GW offers something no other wargame does Stores/Hobbycenters whatever you want to call them. My FLGS I get on well with all the guys and they are cool with you just hanging out and talking about the hobby, also the guys who run it won't tolerate TFG's where as a few of the private groups I've been to almost seem to be run by the TFG's

I don't see Flames of war or anyone else with stores. Yeah I know there are plenty of clubs around where you can get the same experience but for them to offer this service (which i can't imagine makes them much profit wise) is brilliant.


This thread seems to be fast getting away from the original point. There is a price hike in the UK but its not their fault its the Gov, let hope it doesn't last for long.

The stores should pay for themselves.

IF not then GW should close them becuase they are a bad business choice.

Then they could lower there prices and maybe........(GASP) Advertise!

Shiny new retail model means most stores are indeed now profitable, and the others are on the way.

And without the stores, how do they maintain the levels of recruitment year on year?

(P.S. I've worked in them, and was even on a management course with the company, so you might want to go dig up a few facts prior to your retort mmmkay?)

GW will raise prices to meet the VAT.
Then in June/July, they will adjust their prices to a nice round number that is rounded up.
This will in turn cause a raise in U.S. prices to match GW's own exchange rate.

We saw this the last time it happened.

That's part of how BattleWagons went from $45 to the current $62 in less than 2 years of production.

Its GW's pattern. It will happen.
And each time they will lose sales from a percentage of players, and hope to regain that from new players.

Sometimes I get the feeling that GW doesn't really want growth.
They want to be a certain size, and will cut their own throats to stay that size.

skrulnik wrote:GW will raise prices to meet the VAT.
Then in June/July, they will adjust their prices to a nice round number that is rounded up.
This will in turn cause a raise in U.S. prices to match GW's own exchange rate.

We saw this the last time it happened.

That's part of how BattleWagons went from $45 to the current $62 in less than 2 years of production.

Its GW's pattern. It will happen.
And each time they will lose sales from a percentage of players, and hope to regain that from new players.

Sometimes I get the feeling that GW doesn't really want growth.
They want to be a certain size, and will cut their own throats to stay that size.

Personally, I think they will add a little extra in along with the VAT rise because they know damn well a customer is not going to sit there in the store with a calculator and work out the exact difference between before and after the VAT rise.

To be fair, a lot of other stores will do exactly the same thing too.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Oh shut up MGS. In context that post was about your supposition that the prices would be increased by *more* than the VAT increase.

They are not.

The idea that GW will only increase the model price for the entirety of 2011 by the VAT increase is against the trend of previous years, we usually see an increase in the summer every year.




Also, make me shut up princess.

Mr Mystery wrote:

ChocolateGork wrote:

SpankHammer III wrote:

You also apparently have little understanding of how thin a margin GW stores, and by consequence the prices they have to sell to resellers, run on. Unlike the competiors you mention GW have a proper retail presence that actually benefits ALL hobby gamers as it gets new people into the game, but this is expensive. So it is a good decision as it keeps the stores open, keeps new gamers coming into the hobby, and keeps the hobby alive *in the long term* - so it is a good Long term decision.

QTF

don't get me wrong I think GW is expensive, but they are damn nice models. I'm not saying that Perry's are bad but IMHO GW are better mainly because of the multipart plastic kits but that might be just personal taste.

Also GW offers something no other wargame does Stores/Hobbycenters whatever you want to call them. My FLGS I get on well with all the guys and they are cool with you just hanging out and talking about the hobby, also the guys who run it won't tolerate TFG's where as a few of the private groups I've been to almost seem to be run by the TFG's

I don't see Flames of war or anyone else with stores. Yeah I know there are plenty of clubs around where you can get the same experience but for them to offer this service (which i can't imagine makes them much profit wise) is brilliant.


This thread seems to be fast getting away from the original point. There is a price hike in the UK but its not their fault its the Gov, let hope it doesn't last for long.

The stores should pay for themselves.

IF not then GW should close them becuase they are a bad business choice.

Then they could lower there prices and maybe........(GASP) Advertise!

Shiny new retail model means most stores are indeed now profitable, and the others are on the way.

And without the stores, how do they maintain the levels of recruitment year on year?

(P.S. I've worked in them, and was even on a management course with the company, so you might want to go dig up a few facts prior to your retort mmmkay?)

Fair enough. So the stores are no excuse for why there product is so highly priced.

And they could maintain the same levels of recruitment by advertising theie product instead of relying on word of mouth and someone to stumble onto one of their store or their website. But that aint their style so whatever.

And now you show a lack of understanding of how advertising works.

You spend X amount on Advertising one year. This brings in Y additional revenue.

The next year, to maintain growth, you need to shell out for advertising. This brings in Y additional revenue.

So on and so forth. Advertising is expensive. Effective advertising more so. Net result, prices ultimately go up.

And you mention 'stumbling' into stores. Did I not mention you might want to dig up a few facts before your retort?

Me, a bit earlier on wrote:so you might want to go dig up a few facts prior to your retort mmmkay?)

Why yes I did! So, since you clearly have, care to explain how a GW Store manages to continue recruiting new hobbyists year on year?

Another price increase?!?!?

I think I am just going to make D&D and Dark Heresy my full time hobbies now.

Jon Touchdown wrote:Another price increase?!?!?

I think I am just going to make D&D and Dark Heresy my full time hobbies now.

OK for the purposes of reiteration and because seemingly people can't be arsed to read the thread - the price rise is UK ONLY due to a rise in taxes and most probably* won't be felt in other territories.



*GW's price structure permitting. They may decide to hike prices across the board. Who knows.

filbert wrote:

Jon Touchdown wrote:Another price increase?!?!?

I think I am just going to make D&D and Dark Heresy my full time hobbies now.

OK for the purposes of reiteration and because seemingly people can't be arsed to read the thread - the price rise is UK ONLY due to a rise in taxes and most probably* won't be felt in other territories.



*GW's price structure permitting. They may decide to hike prices across the board. Who knows.

This is GW we are talking about lol they will raise all the prices. No special treatment

Actually, Mantic just announced a price increase because of the UK VAT raise.
http://www.manticgames.com/News/Article/21122010-1st-January-2011-Price-Rise.html

Does anyone know when the sales review thing is? Do they have a month for it? I know its been tried a hundred times, but if its in such a small period of time it might be more doable to more people if we suspend purchases on GW product during that time (as opposed to the seemingly indefinite as the other efforts i've seen) then buy aferward.

Just a naive thought from the naive corner.

I've still got quite a few purchases to finish off my army... erg.