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I can certainly understand increasing the price of things in the UK due to a VAT increase. American businesses do not eat a sales tax increase, it is passed on to the consumer. It is to be expected and the only people I can blame are those that voted for the increase somewhere in the depths of the government, and even then I don't because it's often supposed to fund a cause that I can agree with.

That being said, I feel a great deal of the price increase animosity is due to GW's past trends in price increases. VAT goes up? Price in UK goes up a bit, and prices get rounded off to a consumer-friendly number. Well, now UK things are more expensive than US, so US ones go up. Price of tin sky-rockets? Well the price of metal models nearly doubles. The cost of producing plastics barely moved, but GW feels that it is such a premium product that there's no reason the price of metal should be so significantly higher than plastic since they're both high quality products and up goes the plastic.

Yes, GW dropped the price a bit when VAT went down. They kept the rest of the massive, massive price hikes. As noted earlier in the thread, the Battle Wagon going from $45 to $62 is not insignificant and we can point to many other models that had similar exceedingly steep hikes in the cost of the same exact product that has not changed (significantly) in the cost to produce or transport.

I'll still buy GW products, just far fewer than I would if they were less expensive and I'll buy more used when I can. At least until this army is complete. Not really sure what I'll do then. Maybe give Mantic's KoW a whirl?

Kroothawk wrote:Actually, Mantic just announced a price increase because of the UK VAT raise.
http://www.manticgames.com/News/Article/21122010-1st-January-2011-Price-Rise.html

So are most of the UK manufacturers (Perry, Victrix, etc)

American producers (like Wargames Factory) are mostly unaffected. Because GW is expansive with plants all over the world, it is unknown whether they would increase it across the board or only to certain locations (the former being likely though)

With the VAT, Where is the breaking point between profit and tax? When is it going to be too expensive to run a company, and the layoffs begin?

MGS - ah typical you. You have now changed the conditions of the argument so yours looks less foolish and unfounded.

The price rise in January is JUST the VAT rise Nothing more.

Any price rise in summer MAY then round these off. WEll, any price rise is almost *certain* to round them off, IF there is a price rise.

Given you were the first person to shout "shut up" I was simply responding in kind. I have no desire to try to make you shut up, just correcting your repeated errors and distortions, while being amused at your contortions in trying to not admit a failure. #

The shops *cannot* eat a 2.5% VAT rise, as their margins are wafer thin. CLosing stores would reduce the recruitment of new gamers, hurting the company in the long run. I assume people calling for shops to close simply fail to grasp this basic bit of economics, despite attempts at educating otherwise.

Oh for God's sake!! What is worng with you people? Is there something in the water which is making you all argumentative and obnoxious little bastards this week?

The OP did us a favour to say that VAT will rise so therefore the price will, in January. It's ended up with people arguing like tosspots over who said, what, where, when and why and what their real intent was even if they didn't say it!

I am also quite dissapointed that throughout Dakka at the moment there's A LOT of hostility and the Mods are happy for this to go on and even adding to the mix with threads being no mans land as people slog it out like gladitorial morons over the nuance of a word.

Grow up people.

Elmodiddly wrote:Oh for God's sake!! What is worng with you people? Is there something in the water which is making you all argumentative and obnoxious little bastards this week?

The OP did us a favour to say that VAT will rise so therefore the price will, in January. It's ended up with people arguing like tosspots over who said, what, where, when and why and what their real intent was even if they didn't say it!

I am also quite dissapointed that throughout Dakka at the moment there's A LOT of hostility and the Mods are happy for this to go on and even adding to the mix with threads being no mans land as people slog it out like gladitorial morons over the nuance of a word.

Grow up people.

MERRY CHRISTMAS!

And a Happy New Year!

A moderator wrote:

This thread is throwing off some alerts.

Everyone please keep in mind we are just discussing VAT rates, not the key issues of human life.

nosferatu1001 wrote:MGS - ah typical you. You have now changed the conditions of the argument so yours looks less foolish and unfounded.

Heh, actually you just misrepresented what I'd said, so I'll explain slowly for you (although it's odd you didn't understand the full context, given you're little penchant for RAW absolutism...). What I said was ULTIMATELY to the letter. I don't doubt the initial price rise will be VAT, but ULTIMATELY it will be rounded up to a full figure, more than likely in addition to 'preplanned' price increases, which usually take place during the summer. Typical me indeed...

nosferatu1001 wrote:The price rise in January is JUST the VAT rise Nothing more.

Now who's postulating? You know that for certain no more than I do.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Any price rise in summer MAY then round these off. WEll, any price rise is almost *certain* to round them off, IF there is a price rise.

That was my prediction as well, nice to see we're actually agreeing... And you know as well as I do that they will put the prices up in the summer, as they have for years.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Given you were the first person to shout "shut up" I was simply responding in kind. I have no desire to try to make you shut up, just correcting your repeated errors and distortions, while being amused at your contortions in trying to not admit a failure. #

Nice, you kiss your mother with that passive aggressive mouth of yours? You know full well you jumped into this thread with a hostile response, aimed directly at me. It's a great shame I didn't meet you at The Longest Day in Bristol, I heard you were there but on asking a couple of chaos players, they weren't you. Shame, I'd love to buy you a beer and chat face to face, I'm sure this hostility wouldn't exist 'in the real world'. Anyway, fact remains, you've misread what I was saying, perhaps I didn't phrase it correctly for you to absorb.

nosferatu1001 wrote:The shops *cannot* eat a 2.5% VAT rise, as their margins are wafer thin. CLosing stores would reduce the recruitment of new gamers, hurting the company in the long run. I assume people calling for shops to close simply fail to grasp this basic bit of economics, despite attempts at educating otherwise.

What I had said, again if you'd read my post, was for shops to become franchised and/or become independent stores, removing that huge overhead of a highstreet presence from GW whilst empowering their employees to be able to take on their own businesses and recruit for GW. Independent retailers seems a fairly obvious benefit for GW, buying the stock and promoting it free of charge.


Allow me to requote my post and bold the pertinent bits for you old chap...

MeanGreenStompa wrote:Then close the shops, give the managers the opportunity to open franchises or better still, power them into FLGS.

The shops are kept open to recruit new gamers, if the great leviathan GW actually had someone with the dimmest of understanding of the internet and willingness to invest in clubs and enable independent stores instead of treating them as the enemy, GW wouldn't need to maintain the highstreet presence.

And yes, the price raise will not ultimately be 'to the letter' of the VAT % but rather a rounding up figure for profit and ease of pricing. Looks like I left the UK just in time... Unless they somehow try to justify the US prices suffering a hike at the same time through some convoluted excuse.

Hope that helps and mind your blood pressure...

The test will be whether they simply add on the VAT or 'round up' the price increase thus making more money for themselves.

Considering that a box of figures currently £20 will have a very odd price indeed with the VAT increase they may hold off putting on the VAT initially (in the name of good customer service naturally) and then roll in the VAT increase along with a significant price increase in the coming months.

Would be interesting if someone were to calculate exactly how much the VAT rise will be for several 'key' GW items and then compare them to the ticketed prices in January when the rise kicks in and see if GW do apply a little extra on the sly.

Another possibility is that they simply move the summer price rise to January and do just one increase to save time and resource (and immediately add profit earlier).

Elmodiddly wrote:Oh for God's sake!! What is worng with you people? Is there something in the water which is making you all argumentative and obnoxious little bastards this week?

The OP did us a favour to say that VAT will rise so therefore the price will, in January. It's ended up with people arguing like tosspots over who said, what, where, when and why and what their real intent was even if they didn't say it!

I am also quite dissapointed that throughout Dakka at the moment there's A LOT of hostility and the Mods are happy for this to go on and even adding to the mix with threads being no mans land as people slog it out like gladitorial morons over the nuance of a word.

Grow up people.

You must be new here! Welcome to Dakka, and check the ammo feed on your slugga.

Just to throw something in for the folks who are saying that businesses can/should eat tax increases, and you can spend your way out of a recession (puts on econ hat):

1: Companies don't pay taxes, they collect taxes. Since all taxes are levied against companies across the board (ie. by industry or whatever, not "Ok GE pays 20% tax, but Lg pays 16%") there is no competitive advantage to them, and they just add to the cost structure of production. Every company pays the higher tax, so that just becomes the new normal for price. So bear in mind that anytime you vote for a tax increase on X, you are just saying you want to pay more for X.

2: Keynsian economics are working really well here in the US, except for the fact they totally are not. Turns out trillions are not enough blast your way out, despite the fact that our Federal Government is the largest economic actor in the world (or second, depending on how you measure it). The rate at which economists have been back pedaling about the tenants of spending out of recessions is really amusing, en masse breaking every postulate possible to explain why it didn't work. Fun for me, not so much the economy :(

I can remember when all paints were 99p, White Dwarf was 2 pounds (I think), 5 metal models in a blister cost you 4.50 and you could buy the entire Terminator metal set for the princely sum of 12 quid...

"Where and when was such a magical place?" I hear you say!

Well that would be England in the early to mid 1990's when I first started collecting and painting (badly).

In the US for sales tax it is just added on after the price. So if sales tax increases for instance, the additional sales tax item on your receipt goes up but the item price stays the same.

Is it common practice in the UK to have the taxes buried in the price of the item? If so why?

From a public choice view, it is because it is hidden. Everyone knows what the sales tax in their state is, and that is likely the reason why it doesn't change much (and DE trumpets their lack of a ST). If you tax the links in the chain instead of the act of selling itself you can bury more of the taxes, and people blame the sellers for high prices instead of the politicians who raised the tax. As evidence of that, take this thread Not that GW doesn't charge a lot already, or won't raise prices in addition to the VAT, but this is obviously a tax to make everything more expensive, and people are blaming GW for their stuff becoming more expensive as a result.

For a US example, look up some of the tariffs on things like sugar, and the excise taxes on components in your favorite products. The US fed isn't funded by personal income taxes like many people assume, but by far by tariffs and excise taxes on materials, mostly because these are invisible and don't get politicians hung. Gasoline is another good example, with about 2 dollars in tax for every gallon in some states (though that might have changed in the last two years or so since I last looked).

Tax increases you say? Sounds like a good opportunity for GW to sneak in some price hikes under the rader while everyone adjusts their prices to reflect the new VAT

asmith - yes it is common practice for value added tax to be incorporated into the price of all items in the UK.

This is because VAT is standardised as the UK is a relatively small place, but in the USA (I could be wrong here) each state has its own sales tax and so standardising it across all purchases is simply not possible.

Also in the UK prices are usually a very round neat number as it's already included, and you don't have to do the math like in the USA or Canada and add on whatever % the sales tax is there.

I believe adding tax onto the stated price of something is misleading and false advertising, and much prefer the UK system of knowing exactly how much you pay as it's included and advertised from the beginning.

evilsponge - yes that is exactly what GW and other companies will do, pass it onto the consumer and reap more profits.

This topic seems to have been played out, and people just can't seem to keep on topic and polite, per the forum rules.

Therefore, it is now closed!

IF there is some other newsworthy item connected with this event, I suppose it could be re-opened...

But for now, goodnight!