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So if people don't want to play against something that is in extended rules, which all gaming groups don't recognize equally, its fine to mock them for holding a different opinion?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/01/05 23:27:21
Th3ee Legged Dog wrote:Yet you are talking codex standard things which where not, in my opinion; as ridiculous as this.
This however is a FW model and I as an opponent has the right to refuse to play with it. If I am playing an apoc game then sure...but I am talking a standard LFGS walk-in. Unless otherwise communicated I am expecting to play things out of standard 40k codex's and not pick and choose out of FW books.
Actually, as long as it it not a super heavy, and the book states it is part of a normal force organization chart, it's doesn't require opponents permission any more than any other codex entry.
Oh goody, so I can show up to any tournament with one of these things or any other non-super heavy.
Their is a level of expected knowladge in a tournament scene. General codeci are a given but FW rule sets and vehicles...sorry, no.
As far as a pick up game...I treat most pick up games as I would any serious game/tournament level in some occassions. If my oponent plops this on the table I have no problem saying no thanks.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Luco wrote:So if people don't want to play against something that is in extended rules, which all gaming groups don't recognize equally, its fine to mock them for holding a different opinion?
Yes apparently it is ok to mock people on the forums now.
I dont mind a differance of opinions in the least. I just dont think it is too much to ask for them to do it in a civil manor devoid of the inflamatory. Apparently it is however.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/01/05 23:34:45
800 brethren and 2,000 other personnel were expected to reach Crows World within no more than 12 hours. They never arrived.
Let the Bell toll for those that encounter us, not for what we have encountered!
No you just don't get it Three Legged Dog, you're not as good a player as they are because they have no problem running this tank and making the game less fun for their opponent. If you have a problem with that and wouldn't want to actually play against it then it's YOUR fault, because you're less of a gamer than them. They like making other people 'be challenged'. You just don't like being challenged.
SumYungGui wrote:No you just don't get it Three Legged Dog, you're not as good a player as they are because they have no problem running this tank and making the game less fun for their opponent. If you have a problem with that and wouldn't want to actually play against it then it's YOUR fault, because you're less of a gamer than them. They like making other people 'be challenged'. You just don't like being challenged.
Oh my bad homie.
800 brethren and 2,000 other personnel were expected to reach Crows World within no more than 12 hours. They never arrived.
Let the Bell toll for those that encounter us, not for what we have encountered!
Th3ee Legged Dog wrote:Oh goody, so I can show up to any tournament with one of these things or any other non-super heavy.
Their is a level of expected knowladge in a tournament scene. General codeci are a given but FW rule sets and vehicles...sorry, no.
Well that's different - you never said tournament originally.
Th3ee Legged Dog wrote:As far as a pick up game...I treat most pick up games as I would any serious game/tournament level in some occassions. If my oponent plops this on the table I have no problem saying no thanks.
Man, so glad I never picked that attitude up playing this game.
Okay, for sake of argument, let's say that the land raider Achilles cost 250 points. Would you hold it against anyone who said "I'm not playing against that for ____" be it either it isn't in the standard 40k rulebook or codices, or because they thought it was grossly overpowered and would not have a fun game playing against it? Or would you simply say "it's a legal unit, stop whining and find a creative way around it"?
As already brought up, the apparent answer for a sisters player is to field evicerator cannonesses, which could work (not exactly reliable, but probably the best chance they get) which also assumes that you can't tie them up with something (say your 5 thunderhammer terminators) or they don't get killed or bogged down etc, or they could use penitent engines, which are known to be poor, but even so you're sending a low armored walker against a tank with 2 multi-meltas. I don't think anyone would ever see that work.
Eldar are stuck with witchblades, which would only be reliable in large warlock squads, but as brought up in another thread large warlock squads are not exactly efficient especially since you could bring a librarian to help against them. Wraithlords would work, but have to slog it across the table weathering fire (not something they do that well). Last few answers are Fuegan in close combat, or the avatar in the same place (with only 5 attacks it isn't likely), fire prisms (one shot even as a rail gun is even less likely), or swooping hawks (majority -3 to the damage chart and have to get through the thunderfire cannon).
The point is, just because someone refuses to play against something when outside of a tournament doesn't mean they are less of a gamer, especially when it isn't included in the core rules, but as an extension, especially when there are obvious problems with it. Were it included in the space marine codex, I'd agree and say "try to deal with it" similar to with thunderwolf cavalry, vendettas and so on. But when it's in an extension, I have no expectation of playing against it or of having my opponent play against it.
The thing is, the majority of 'normal' Forgeworld units are completely fine. They're either balanced about right or evn against the player using them. It's only a handful of units that create the bad attitude towards Forgeworld stuff, of which the Achilles is a member of. Funnily enough, they tend to be Space Marine transports (Lucius Pattern Drop Pod, Ceastus Assault Ram and Land Raider Achilles).
I do not like FW. I don't use them and I don't like to play against them. I won't just not play if that's the only other option, like if the opponent available only has stuff that uses experimental rules. This is not because I have some fear that they are unbalanced though. I don't like the elitism of it. FW models are expensive. Using FW models gives some people access to special exceptional rules that other players may not have access to. Also, FW does not put out nearly as many optional special units for some armies as it does for others.
Having FW Imperial Armor gives Imperial players many more options and variants to overcome their usual accepted weaknesses of the 'standard' units. If Imperials have a dozen different variants for all occasions, then so should every other army. It reminds me of the old practice of IG taking grey knight allies to overcome their CC shortcomings. It is not in the spirit of the game where each army has a distinct flavor with its strengths and weaknesses where WYSIWYG is important, proxies are frowned upon, and most players consider appearance and authenticity as a good part of the hobby (My grot is not a librarian any more than my Crusader is an Achilles); but certain optional experimental rules only available to players with generous parents or a nice job exist as long as everyone agrees to them. Guess what? IG are SUPPOSED TO SUCK at close combat to offset the fact that they have mad crazy big guns as a strength. Likewise each race's tanks have their own strengths and weaknesses. Where's my ground-pounding AV14 Eldar non-skimmer with quad linked flamers?? Oh yeah, FW doesn't like Eldar enough to make 20 tank variants for them, so never mind. Fair enough, just because the points may be balanced? NO! The points are imbalanced from one army to the next for a reason. Why a space marine Land Speeder costs less than an Eldar Vyper? Nobody knows, except that it somehow is intertwined with other pro's and cons of each list working towards an army list with a distinction to it. If I can have an Eldar version of a Leman Russ just because FW made a model for it, it reduces the uniqueness of both the Eldar and the IG armor flavor.
Here's why: socially, in pickup games at a store against a person you don't know, it puts the non-FW player on the spot to even ask him "is it okay I have this new tank that isnt in my codex" because he will have to respond "sure fine, whatever its just a game" otherwise everyone thinks he's a jerk. When really, how many people say "sure, whatever" when inside they are thinking "no. use what's in your codex."
If someone wants to use FW against me I would like to say "sure if I can use my old transformers toy with these made up rules I have for it too".. "but wait... Transformers aren't in the GW universe" says the rich kid with the FW tanks. My point exactly sez me, as I paint a big two headed eagle on optimus prime's windshield.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/01/06 01:45:52
I think that statement is *far* more elitist than anything FW related...ever.
Will you not play against Horde Orks or IG because they cost 2-4x as much $$$ as a Space Marine army as well? Exact same principle. Making an army of FW Space Marines is still probably cheaper than a mechanized IG army of all plastic dudes from GW.
It really sounds like you are projecting far different issues onto FW than possibly exist. Most FW stuff is simply variants of already existing things that doesn't really bring any truly new capabilities. Is there really an issue with a Leman Russ Annihilator or a MM razorback? A LR Helios? Rough Rider command squads? You won't find FW making IGCC Walkers or WS5 I6 Powerweapon wielding guardsmen. You won't find AV14 Eldar Battle Tanks with huge ordnance weapons on them. You won't find Tau with Jump Pack assault troops, and you won't find Orks with BS4 guns.
If someone wants to use FW against me I would like to say "sure if I can use my old transformers toy with these made up rules I have for it too".. "but wait... Transformers aren't in the GW universe" says the rich kid with the FW tanks. My point exactly sez me, as I paint a big two headed eagle on optimus prime's windshield.
Except they very explictely are... With a *GW* copyright and a Citadel Models stamp. FW *IS* GW. They aren't a subsidiary or a different company, they are a subdivision, they work out of the same building and use the same phones and same email addresses and their products all have a GW copyright and are official Citadel products.
Of course they exist within the 40k universe.
Telling yourself otherwise in your fantasy land with Optimus prime doesn't make it not so. Just because its not in a codex doesn't mean it doesn't exist in the 40k universe.
That said, FW is also not always that expensive, for instance I bought my FW Chaos dreads direct from them at a cheaper price than the GW metal one.
I have a feeling you really don't have any idea about FW stuff at all here. I think you if you took the time to visit the FW website and download their rules, you would find in fact that the FW army lists are far more balanced and generally less abuseable than most of the newer Codex's are, as are most units with about half a dozen exceptions *TOPS*.
If you look at how FW models change when they get put into codex's, they genreally become cheaper and better. The Hydra is a great example, it was 200pts without a cover save ignoring rule and couldn't be taken in squadrons, now its 75pts and can be taken up to 3 per HS slot and ignores SMF cover saves.
This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2011/01/06 02:16:13
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights! The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.
yeenoghu wrote:I do not like FW. I don't use them and I don't like to play against them. I won't just not play if that's the only other option, like if the opponent available only has stuff that uses experimental rules. This is not because I have some fear that they are unbalanced though. I don't like the elitism of it. FW models are expensive. Using FW models gives some people access to special exceptional rules that other players may not have access to. Also, FW does not put out nearly as many optional special units for some armies as it does for others.
Spoiler:
Having FW Imperial Armor gives Imperial players many more options and variants to overcome their usual accepted weaknesses of the 'standard' units. If Imperials have a dozen different variants for all occasions, then so should every other army. It reminds me of the old practice of IG taking grey knight allies to overcome their CC shortcomings. It is not in the spirit of the game where each army has a distinct flavor with its strengths and weaknesses where WYSIWYG is important, proxies are frowned upon, and most players consider appearance and authenticity as a good part of the hobby (My grot is not a librarian any more than my Crusader is an Achilles); but certain optional experimental rules only available to players with generous parents or a nice job exist as long as everyone agrees to them. Guess what? IG are SUPPOSED TO SUCK at close combat to offset the fact that they have mad crazy big guns as a strength. Likewise each race's tanks have their own strengths and weaknesses. Where's my ground-pounding AV14 Eldar non-skimmer with quad linked flamers?? Oh yeah, FW doesn't like Eldar enough to make 20 tank variants for them, so never mind. Fair enough, just because the points may be balanced? NO! The points are imbalanced from one army to the next for a reason. Why a space marine Land Speeder costs less than an Eldar Vyper? Nobody knows, except that it somehow is intertwined with other pro's and cons of each list working towards an army list with a distinction to it. If I can have an Eldar version of a Leman Russ just because FW made a model for it, it reduces the uniqueness of both the Eldar and the IG armor flavor.
Here's why: socially, in pickup games at a store against a person you don't know, it puts the non-FW player on the spot to even ask him "is it okay I have this new tank that isnt in my codex" because he will have to respond "sure fine, whatever its just a game" otherwise everyone thinks he's a jerk. When really, how many people say "sure, whatever" when inside they are thinking "no. use what's in your codex."
If someone wants to use FW against me I would like to say "sure if I can use my old transformers toy with these made up rules I have for it too".. "but wait... Transformers aren't in the GW universe" says the rich kid with the FW tanks. My point exactly sez me, as I paint a big two headed eagle on optimus prime's windshield.
Wait a minute. You're also complaining about the models there. If I put down my Tyranid army to play you, with a Forgeworld Winged hive Tyrant and Shrikes using Forgeworld Warrior wings, you wouldnt play me, because I'm using official (Forgeworld models are GW models, afterall) alternative models that I happened to like and paid for? I mean, consider the fact that for Australian, that Hive Tyrant from Foregworld costs the fething same as the GW model?
How about Apocalypse? I can't use my nice Hierophant because you don't like that I bought a $350 model, despite the rules being in the Apocalypse book?
If you have something against the optional unit rules, fine. But the models?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/01/06 01:57:56
Ignoring the balance issue, I do not like Achilles. It seems very fanboyish. Almost like some 12-yr kid made it for home games. "This is Land Raider Emperor Ultra Turbo! It is nearly unkillable and has Thunderfire cannon and Twin-linked Multi-meltas!"
It is supposed to be a siege vehicle, but armament of Multi-meltas and Thunderfire seems strange for such a task. Armament itself is somewhat bizarre combination of long-range horde killing and short range tank-killing. There are already Land Raider siege-variants (Helios, Ares) so another one seems superfluous.
Invulnerability rule is very un-Empireish. Such special rules are generally restricted to alien races, and it raises a fluff question, why this method of armouring is unique to Achilles? It would have made more sense to equip Achilles with some sort of void shield, as this technology is widely used, though usually in larger vehicles.
Th3ee Legged Dog wrote:Oh goody, so I can show up to any tournament with one of these things or any other non-super heavy.
Their is a level of expected knowladge in a tournament scene. General codeci are a given but FW rule sets and vehicles...sorry, no.
Well that's different - you never said tournament originally.
Th3ee Legged Dog wrote:As far as a pick up game...I treat most pick up games as I would any serious game/tournament level in some occassions. If my oponent plops this on the table I have no problem saying no thanks.
Man, so glad I never picked that attitude up playing this game.
Right, I apologize for not making that apparent.
Yes you should be glad, it is a curse at times. Hardly a WAAC player but I like a level of maturity in my games that I do not always find...so yes I have standards. This does not mean that every game I play has to meet my rigid guidlines I simply mean to imply that I play with people that have the same expectations whenever able. It is not so
feast or famine" here in the Seattle area that I cant choose when I get a game...
I have played ridiculous apoc games. I have played fun scenario games. I have played campaigns with whacky special rules and such. On average though I do not want to walk in and play a stranger and have this thing set on the table. That is all I am saying. I would expect to see this in an apoc game, I wouldnt mind seeing it in a scenario based game, I would love to see someone field this in a revolving campaign...just not a random pick up or tournament.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ail-Shan wrote:
The point is, just because someone refuses to play against something when outside of a tournament doesn't mean they are less of a gamer, especially when it isn't included in the core rules, but as an extension, especially when there are obvious problems with it. Were it included in the space marine codex, I'd agree and say "try to deal with it" similar to with thunderwolf cavalry, vendettas and so on. But when it's in an extension, I have no expectation of playing against it or of having my opponent play against it.
That was my point, thank you for saying it better then I have been able to...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/01/06 02:06:50
800 brethren and 2,000 other personnel were expected to reach Crows World within no more than 12 hours. They never arrived.
Let the Bell toll for those that encounter us, not for what we have encountered!
Th3ee Legged Dog wrote:Right, I apologize for not making that apparent.
Yes you should be glad, it is a curse at times. Hardly a WAAC player but I like a level of maturity in my games that I do not always find...so yes I have standards. This does not mean that every game I play has to meet my rigid guidlines I simply mean to imply that I play with people that have the same expectations whenever able. It is not so
feast or famine" here in the Seattle area that I cant choose when I get a game...
I have played ridiculous apoc games. I have played fun scenario games. I have played campaigns with whacky special rules and such. On average though I do not want to walk in and play a stranger and have this thing set on the table. That is all I am saying. I would expect to see this in an apoc game, I wouldnt mind seeing it in a scenario based game, I would love to see someone field this in a revolving campaign...just not a random pick up or tournament.
Seems I misunderstood you, since this is basically my view on the Achilles. It should have been an Apocalypse datasheet like the Terminus Land Raider.
yeenoghu wrote:I do not like FW. I don't use them and I don't like to play against them. I won't just not play if that's the only other option, like if the opponent available only has stuff that uses experimental rules. This is not because I have some fear that they are unbalanced though. I don't like the elitism of it. FW models are expensive. Using FW models gives some people access to special exceptional rules that other players may not have access to. Also, FW does not put out nearly as many optional special units for some armies as it does for others.
Having FW Imperial Armor gives Imperial players many more options and variants to overcome their usual accepted weaknesses of the 'standard' units. If Imperials have a dozen different variants for all occasions, then so should every other army. It reminds me of the old practice of IG taking grey knight allies to overcome their CC shortcomings. It is not in the spirit of the game where each army has a distinct flavor with its strengths and weaknesses where WYSIWYG is important, proxies are frowned upon, and most players consider appearance and authenticity as a good part of the hobby (My grot is not a librarian any more than my Crusader is an Achilles); but certain optional experimental rules only available to players with generous parents or a nice job exist as long as everyone agrees to them. Guess what? IG are SUPPOSED TO SUCK at close combat to offset the fact that they have mad crazy big guns as a strength. Likewise each race's tanks have their own strengths and weaknesses. Where's my ground-pounding AV14 Eldar non-skimmer with quad linked flamers?? Oh yeah, FW doesn't like Eldar enough to make 20 tank variants for them, so never mind. Fair enough, just because the points may be balanced? NO! The points are imbalanced from one army to the next for a reason. Why a space marine Land Speeder costs less than an Eldar Vyper? Nobody knows, except that it somehow is intertwined with other pro's and cons of each list working towards an army list with a distinction to it. If I can have an Eldar version of a Leman Russ just because FW made a model for it, it reduces the uniqueness of both the Eldar and the IG armor flavor.
Here's why: socially, in pickup games at a store against a person you don't know, it puts the non-FW player on the spot to even ask him "is it okay I have this new tank that isnt in my codex" because he will have to respond "sure fine, whatever its just a game" otherwise everyone thinks he's a jerk. When really, how many people say "sure, whatever" when inside they are thinking "no. use what's in your codex."
If someone wants to use FW against me I would like to say "sure if I can use my old transformers toy with these made up rules I have for it too".. "but wait... Transformers aren't in the GW universe" says the rich kid with the FW tanks. My point exactly sez me, as I paint a big two headed eagle on optimus prime's windshield.
What the elitism about it? Just like you stated that it only a game, so everyone that is crying about a single LR....grow up. If and if ya'lls are good players, you will know how to play around it. FW are not OP, you have to know what you are doing as a player. I been call a jerk in a pick up game, because I always bring my A game and not a stupid vehicle. Learn how to play.
Overall Tournaments 11-2 2012
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Stop trying to pawn yourself off as a 'better gamer' because you think other people are incapable of learning how to get around this vehicle. You are not better, and other people can learn how to deal with it.
Captain Jack wrote:I bet you lot are the same guys who whined about BA deepstriking Land Raiders.
Hey now! I complained about Deep Striking Land Raiders as well, but not because of their effectiveness (or lack thereof) in-game, but more because the concept is so ball-breaking silly.
Th3ee Legged Dog wrote:Their is a level of expected knowladge in a tournament scene. General codeci are a given but FW rule sets and vehicles...sorry, no.
No, Loki was right. He doesn't need permission to field anything from a Forge World book as long as he is following the rules for fielding that unit (ie. pays the correct points for it, that it uses the correct FOC slot, and that if it is a Super Heavy that the game is over 2000 points). For a tournament and 'level of expected knowledge', that's crap - the TO has the right to allow or deny any unit, even entire Codices if they so desire. They could state clearly "Non-Super Heavy FW units are allowed at this Tournament", and it wouldn't matter what your 'level of expected knowledge' was.
yeenoghu wrote:If someone wants to use FW against me I would like to say "sure if I can use my old transformers toy with these made up rules I have for it too".. "but wait... Transformers aren't in the GW universe" says the rich kid with the FW tanks. My point exactly sez me, as I paint a big two headed eagle on optimus prime's windshield.
You can't be serious? That's your view of FW units, that they're no better than some kid making up his own rules? Are you mad?
And... hold on... did you just say what I think you just said...
yeenoghu wrote:...says the rich kid with the FW tanks...
Wow. You did. You really went there.
Rich kid?
Ok, we've entered into whole counter-elitist elitism arrogant overblown sense of entitlement bitter jealously sort of area here. Methinks you have bigger issues than a Land Raider with a big feth-off cannon sticking out the front.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
SumYungGui wrote:They choose not to.
Yes!!! Just like the Reb Brown Captain America movies you will face down the opposing Achilles tanks by taking your ball and leaving!!! Such heroics! Such majesty!!! Such... girly... man... ish... ness
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2011/01/06 07:16:27
The thing is, while I've got nothing against overpowered stuff, the Achilles just isn't costed right. I'd have less trouble taking down a scythed Hierodule, and that thing is a 450 point gargantuan creature. The Achilles really should have been limited to Apocalypse.
I'm not quite sure it's even possible to cost this thing appropriately. The Achilles is harder for many armies than a Baneblade or a Stompa, and while it doesn't have quite the same level of firepower it's certainly got firepower to match some superheavies like a Macharius or a Malcador, and can be made a scoring bunker with a cheap Troops unit to force opponents to play for draws, but if you start costing it relative to those units then it becomes clearly overcosted.
I feel that the current combinations of weapons and defensive special rules are just too much, making it impossible to cost accurately, and being just simply too hard to kill. If they took off the -1 to damage results or the immunity rules it'd be perfectly fine and you wouldn't really hear complaints, but both together just make it absolutely ridiculous.
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights! The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.
So what if it's a good unit? It's still 300 points and not as good as a Monolith, oh and I agree that deep striking Land Raiders is the dumbest fluffism that I've heard of recently. The problem is that some people are unable to bring 'all comers' lists and have to maximise every time they play. So what if I've got an anti mech force and someone plays hoard. Yes there is an element of mocking, have a look in the mirror while whineing and you'll see why.
A lot of lists that I have will struggle against this unit, but it is a large chunk of points and fairly avoidable. OMG, that means he has less to spend on other gucci stuff, so killing the rest of the tat is easier. Did you consider that?
Finally, I'm working on an Eldar list with 3 Hornets and you aren't going see hoards of them just like the Achilles. Gonna walk away if I put them down? Life isn't balanced, it's a game, and the imbalance between the races makes it fun and less like chess with dice.
People really need to stop comparing it with a monolith. Aside from armor values, they really aren't too comparable. The Achilles has a much greater threat range, more versatile weaponry, can be taken along with 6-7 other tanks, and while it can't teleport stuff, it can hold a scoring unit and an IC, which can be just as, if not more valuable. It's also much harder to destroy than a monolith by the majority of weapons available to most armies, and can't be ignored by focusing on Phaseout.
It's not a very balanced unit at all, when it's harder to kill for most armies than a Baneblade, that's an issue. Nobody cares about the Hornet because it's reasonably balanced and isn't exactly hard to kill.
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights! The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.
Vaktathi wrote:People really need to stop comparing it with a monolith. Aside from armor values, they really aren't too comparable. The Achilles has a much greater threat range, more versatile weaponry, can be taken along with 6-7 other tanks, and while it can't teleport stuff, it can hold a scoring unit and an IC, which can be just as, if not more valuable. It's also much harder to destroy than a monolith by the majority of weapons available to most armies, and can't be ignored by focusing on Phaseout.
It is comparable, because the 'lith shares the hard to kill status with similar armor. Oh, and the 'lith can't be weapon destroyed to death, and is considerably cheaper. Also the Achilles can't deepsrike into the middle of your army and hit everything around it, you don't play BA do you? Nah, you're just being reactionary, I'm sure once you've played against one you'll not be so bothered (place tempting remark here).
Captain Jack wrote:
It is comparable, because the 'lith shares the hard to kill status with similar armor. Oh, and the 'lith can't be weapon destroyed to death, and is considerably cheaper. Also the Achilles can't deepsrike into the middle of your army and hit everything around it,
Sure, a lith can't be plinked to death, but it's got *twice* the chance on any penetrating hit to be destroyed outright and can still be killed by meltaweapons.
As for DS'ing, sure the Monolith can do it (but can't fire on the turn it arrives to do counting as having moved at Cruising speed and not being Fast), but again, still can't actually *hold* an objective or deny KP's to an opponent, and you aren't facing half a dozen+ armor units in the case of the monolith, plus there's always Phase Out to exploit that doesn't exist with the Achilles.
It's far, far easier to destroy a Necron army while ignoring a monolith than it is a Space Marine or Space Wolf army while ignoring an Achilles. You have to take the unit within the context of the armies they are available to. It's not hard at all to see why the Achilles isn't fun at all to play against, especially if you're playing an army like Dark Eldar, Orks, or Witch Hunters.
you don't play BA do you? Nah, you're just being reactionary, I'm sure once you've played against one you'll not be so bothered (place tempting remark here).
Cool story bro.
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights! The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.
Yup, this is the same cool story that happens every time a 'OMG itz brokenz, my uber army is lost against dis unitz'. Seriously though, there is a lot of stuff that is really hard and for less points. Over 390~ points for one scoring unit means they aren't going to have a whole lot else, and that's almost the cost of two 'liths. Yes it is contextual, but not to the point of gamebreaking, I'll leave you to it...
Captain Jack wrote:
It is comparable, because the 'lith shares the hard to kill status with similar armor. Oh, and the 'lith can't be weapon destroyed to death, and is considerably cheaper. Also the Achilles can't deepsrike into the middle of your army and hit everything around it, you don't play BA do you? Nah, you're just being reactionary, I'm sure once you've played against one you'll not be so bothered (place tempting remark here).
No need to be snide. Keep in mind that you can't judge a unit in a vacuum. Necrons have what, one vehicle? That means really all of your anti-mechhammer weapons you brought in your all-corners list are going to be very bored and shooting at that one (or maybe two) monoliths, as opposed to the inevitable razorback spam that accompanies the SM player.
yeenoghu wrote:words
Wow dude. Maybe it's because I'm mostly an IG player, but that's some hardcore inferiority complex going on. Most of the IG stuff in there is subpar, btw. To be fair, there is a sick amount of Tau/Eldar stuff that's stupid awesome in there. The fusion turrets that Tau can droppod wherever they want? Not to mention Revenant Titans for Eldar. Those things are crazy. Don't get me wrong, I totally called bullgak on the Lucius droppod the first time I saw it, but after taking it into consideration for future games, it became less of a problem to me. I think about the only non-apocFW thing I'd not like in a friendly game without advance planning would be fliers, and that's just because they're difficult to deal with unless you have the opportunity to be prepared for them. To be fair, you get Falcons which are still nigh-unkillable for a fraction of the price.
Backfire wrote:Ignoring the balance issue, I do not like Achilles. It seems very fanboyish. Almost like some 12-yr kid made it for home games. "This is Land Raider Emperor Ultra Turbo! It is nearly unkillable and has Thunderfire cannon and Twin-linked Multi-meltas!"
It is supposed to be a siege vehicle, but armament of Multi-meltas and Thunderfire seems strange for such a task. Armament itself is somewhat bizarre combination of long-range horde killing and short range tank-killing. There are already Land Raider siege-variants (Helios, Ares) so another one seems superfluous.
Invulnerability rule is very un-Empireish. Such special rules are generally restricted to alien races, and it raises a fluff question, why this method of armouring is unique to Achilles? It would have made more sense to equip Achilles with some sort of void shield, as this technology is widely used, though usually in larger vehicles.
This is why this unit annoys me. It's the lame 6 year old kid no one likes playing with the others who says, "Nut uh! I..um... I have a forcefield which protects me! You can't hurt me! Times infinity!" Eldar get holofields/energy fields. Necron Monoliths get effective melta immunity. To hand out stuff like this to SM is to dilute the uniqueness of each army.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/01/06 17:21:50
The Achilles is an absolute pain, Monolith to the square.
I battled one with my mech Eldar at 2000 pts and ignored it all the time.
After 5 rounds it was a draw, but he (Toby) admitted that we would have lost with an normal LR instead of this d*** thing.
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I think the Chaos Space Marines need some Land Raider love. How about one with sponson-mounted quad-Autocannons and hull-mounted Plasma Cannons?
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I have no problem with FW stuff, being that all of it is permission only.
The issue is, that FW stuff has been put into codices over the years, and it is only a matter of time before this piece of crap appears in a marine book eventually.
When that happens, ugh....
As to what I think of the Achilles? It is a mistake. It is an example of trying to capture fluff in the rules, and failing badly. You can have your Achilles as long as my dark Eldar have the ability to open open black holes in the game during battles.
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