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BuFFo wrote:I have no problem with FW stuff, being that all of it is permission only.

Except they're not.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

BuFFo wrote:I have no problem with FW stuff, being that all of it is permission only.

Except they're not.

Except they pretty much are. They are unallowed in roughly 99% of all tournies and pick up games are by definition permission only

Tournies are not the arbiter of what is or is not legal, and never have been, GW themselves has stated this. There exists no uniform tournament standard to go by anyway. For pickup games there is nothing saying that FW stuff needs permission.

Except the permission of the other person to just say 'No that model's pretty crappy. I'm not gonna play'. That one's pretty important.

Right, there's always that, but that applies universally to anything, it has nothing to do with being Forgeworld or not.

SumYungGui wrote:Except the permission of the other person to just say 'No that model's pretty crappy. I'm not gonna play'. That one's pretty important.

Ooops, playing one more round This is the problem, the 'OMG his armyz got stuff I'm gonna struggle with' syndrom is just laughable. I'm also not playing 'cause you spent a lot of money, or because you assume you're going to lose doesn't work either. It's not impossible to deal with, 3 rail gun hammerheads is easy and relatively balanced in 2000pts (I run 2 in 1500), plus throw in some other suits and they (Achilles) are ducks. Yes, they will win games until people work out their heel problem. Jetbike Seer councils, and Nobz biker mobs have all come and gone as the latest 'game breaker' and I see this as being no different.

I suppose I work on the premis of 'is it a FOC legal list?' if yes, go to the fun bit where dice are rolled and stuff happens...

And again the point is brought up that not every race has rail guns, and that some races (such as sisters of battle and Eldar) will have a lot of difficulty killing the Achilles without some serious tailoring or inclusion of certain units (which may be units the person doesn't like playing with. I, for example, would never field Eldar jet bikes. I just don't like them. They are effective and can be quite good, but I don't like them and so wont use them).

So yes, every army can deal with the Achilles (with varying degrees of difficulty), but the point is that no unit should require another armor to completely tailor their entire force to deal with. Mephiston can be brought down by the already included plethora of AP1 (or 2 if people would field plasma) or just by a pile of shots (similar to glancing a tank to death) or some guys with good invulnerable saves, or a horde of orks led by a nob (going with 1 on 1, yes whole other army etc.).

So with sisters for example, the possible ways to kill the achillies was to field cannonesses with eviserators, which are again not too difficult to kill, and even then have little chance to kill the achillies. Other options were to throw far more points at the achillies in the form of exorcists for multiple turns, keeping your anti tank from firing at other targets.

Anyway, I don't play against anything forge world because I have no idea how it works, and have never encountered it since it is basically an extension through imperial armor (like Apocalypse). Similarly, I don't bring any forge world stuff.



However, let's clear this up one thing at a time: Is the Achilles underpointed/improperly built (as Vaktathi pointed out last page)? Why or why not (my opinion is included above: underpointed, though I think Vaktathi is correct in that it has too much stuff making it near impossible to correctly point).

tedurur wrote:They are unallowed in roughly 99% of all tournies

And that's the TO's right. It's got nothing to do with the rules for FW. A TO could disallow the Space Marine Codex if he wanted to - wouldn't make the Space Marine Codex 'permission only' everywhere else.

tedurur wrote:... and pick up games are by definition permission only

Which, again, has nothing to do with the FW rules.

So, to clarify further:

Forge World rules are no more or less 'permission only' than any other rule within 40K, and Tournament Organisers are free to pick and choose what rules they want to have at their events.

There is no viable platform for the claim of superiority by championing this model. Talking down to people who don't want to play against this model is nothing more than stroking your own ego and it makes everyone doing it look extremely childish.

I love how this always gets bogged down into a discussion about whether Forge World rules are "official" or not.

The official statement on the matter is a very nice two page introduction in Imperial Armour Apocalypse which is summed up in the last paragraph. That paragraph begins "As far as we are concerned Codexes and the rulebook are official, everything else is up to the players to use or ignore at will." and end equating the Imperial Armour rules with City of Death and the other expansions.

Where are all the threads hounding people to play City of Death or Planetstrike? Those are GW expansions just like the Forge World rules.

solkan wrote:I love how this always gets bogged down into a discussion about whether Forge World rules are "official" or not.

Because "Well I don't have to use it because it's not official" is an argument made from a fallacious starting point ie. that Forge World rules are "Opponent's Permission" (any more than any other rule etc. etc. etc.) when they are not.

solkan wrote:The official statement on the matter is a very nice two page introduction in Imperial Armour Apocalypse which is summed up in the last paragraph. That paragraph begins "As far as we are concerned Codexes and the rulebook are official, everything else is up to the players to use or ignore at will." and end equating the Imperial Armour rules with City of Death and the other expansions.

Good for Imperial Armour Apocalypse. My Imperial Armour books however say something quite different.

solkan wrote:Where are all the threads hounding people to play City of Death or Planetstrike? Those are GW expansions just like the Forge World rules.

Apples and Oranges.

CoD and Planetstrike are different methods of playing 40K. You can't play them without knowing beforehand that you're playing them because the way the game is structured (from list building to objectives) is completely different. Showing up with a Bombard or an Autocannon Turret Chimera doesn't require a complete different methodology for playing the core game.

SumYungGui wrote:... and it makes everyone doing it look extremely childish.

More than, say, this:

yeenoghu wrote:
...says the rich kid with the FW tanks...

And refusing to play against someone because they have a 'powerful' unit is more childish. It is, as I said, the behaviour of someone who's just afraid of losing.

solkan wrote:I love how this always gets bogged down into a discussion about whether Forge World rules are "official" or not.

The official statement on the matter is a very nice two page introduction in Imperial Armour Apocalypse which is summed up in the last paragraph. That paragraph begins "As far as we are concerned Codexes and the rulebook are official, everything else is up to the players to use or ignore at will." and end equating the Imperial Armour rules with City of Death and the other expansions.

Where are all the threads hounding people to play City of Death or Planetstrike? Those are GW expansions just like the Forge World rules.

Other books say very different things or nothing at all, and for a book that's completely about stuff for a high points level expansion, that's to be understood.

where in the warp is the heel on this thing

And refusing to play against someone because they have a 'powerful' unit is more childish. It is, as I said, the behaviour of someone who's just afraid of losing.

And again I ask, for sake of argument, would you still taunt and criticize people who refused to play the Achilles if it cost 250 points? What if it cost 100 points? Or do you stand by saying "just deal with it you coward"?

SumYungGui wrote:Stop trying to pawn yourself off as a 'better gamer' because you think other people are incapable of learning how to get around this vehicle. You are not better, and other people can learn how to deal with it.

They choose not to.

How would you know.....hmmm you never played against me or dont even know me.

Reecius wrote:Exactly, it is not invincible! Haha, and refusing to play it is such a wimpy way to play this game....it is a game after all!

And people, I and HBMC were being SARCASTIC! I know it is hard to pick up in the net, but come on, no need to get riled up.

If someone ever refused to play me because of a single model I would laugh. Find a way to win, every army in the game has a way to destroy this tank, or to contain it. If you don't see what it is, look harder.

Simply throwing your hands up and saying no, you won't play against it is the lazy man's way out.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@AlexHelker
OK, I'll bite. Name an army and I will tell you how to destroy this tank. Maybe that will make your attitude less defeatist. And I don;t say that to insult you, please don't take it that way, but if you read what you have written, your attitude is just that.

Your valour brought a tear of pure manliness to chuck norris' eye.

I would fight it, I would kill it, then I would do it again, but if it was fielded every game, id start to get sick of it. There are some things that will seriously wreck this vehicle, like a deffrolla, but 2 multimeltas and POTMs is a fearsome tank killer, so thats unreliable. And TFCs are AWESOME! Im not sure why everyone hates them? Their very good against Orks and tyranid gribblies, and put enough hits on target to kill space marines too.

I dont like units that win because their good, with no tactics required, and hell theres not many of those. Meph is more or less one. Even things like TH/SS terminators need tactics, and back up, like a land raider for transport. One unit armies like the Achillies are kinda lame.

You guys must admit, your taking a (if sarcastic) very "Yes-man" view on this. OH! A REALLY HARD BROKEN UNIT TO KILL! SURE ILL FIGHT IT!. And of course there are always ways to kill it with each army. Eldar can use 3 fireprisms to str 10 it. Its POSSIBLE, but hell tailoring much?

It looks pointless. No assault ramp, can only carry 6 troops, meh weaponry. It's a big fething turtle.

I don't view it as being incredibly broken.
Do I think it seems more like an apocalypse vehicle? Yes
In blatant disregard to FW, most people wouldn't let you play it even though the books explicitly state it's legal to do so without requiring permission from your opponent as FW books are simply additions to the existing codexes.
I think the cries of cheese on this one are on par with all the crying over BA / SW. I feel as though 5th edition codexes are more powerful than earlier editions and certainly the trend will continue for the newer releases.

Is the achilles overpowered? not really. It's on about the same level as the old eldar tank shenanigans / monolith hardiness. It's also a great deal more expensive points wise and y'all are forgetting how easy it is to get a weapon destroyed result and take out it's TFC. OMG you can't explode it without an AP1, instantly cry cheese guys.
Most of you haven't even played against one so your views on it are entirely based on speculation, mathhammer, and the fact that you're too cheap to buy FW models..

I used to play orks (long story) and I have to say there isn't a good option on taking this down with ease. swamping it with Pk attacks is not viable and Neither is deff rolla.. Not to say you can't.. but you are probably better off just ignoring like you used to do with eldar tanks and monoliths.. and at best trying for a few weapon destroyed results to take out its shooting

But feel free to continue making a mountain out of a molehill guys. I personally feel like the achilles isn't as great as you guys make it out to be (and especially unthreatening in an apocalypse environment)

solkan wrote:I love how this always gets bogged down into a discussion about whether Forge World rules are "official" or not.

The official statement on the matter is a very nice two page introduction in Imperial Armour Apocalypse which is summed up in the last paragraph. That paragraph begins "As far as we are concerned Codexes and the rulebook are official, everything else is up to the players to use or ignore at will." and end equating the Imperial Armour rules with City of Death and the other expansions.

Where are all the threads hounding people to play City of Death or Planetstrike? Those are GW expansions just like the Forge World rules.

It didn't occur to you that Imperial Armour Apocalypse might have said this because it is itself an extension to Apocalypse? Which is, itself, a non-standard gametype that is something players agree to play rather than standard 40k, much like Planetstrike and Cities of Death?