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Otherwise a nicely argued concise,polite and logical post

Thankyou.

Ascalam wrote:Otherwise a nicely argued concise,polite and logical post

Thankyou.

Your welcome

Ascalam wrote:Melta Bombs not being Melta... Hmmm sounds like clutching at straws a tad..

Technically they are melta weapons with a range of 0 inches , if you want to look at it that way. As they're always going to be within 1/2 range (0) they are always getting 2d6, except vs Liths..

Anyone claiming Melta Bombs aren't melta (whether or not they can support it with an 'it doesn't say melta in the weapon statline' ) is definitely not playing fair. Its in the name. Its Melta. Grenades just don't get the normal weapon statline due to the fact that most of it would be wasted space.

Kindof like when Inquisition players (pre the faq) claimed that inferno pistols weren't flamers or meltas (they were special) and so they worked on the Avatar..


Tankbusta bombs (almost identical, but with no melta in the name) are in a similar boat. I would rule more RAI of d6+6, but thats at least in part because the RAW-Lawyers ignoring RAI for advantage bug the crud out of me!

The RAW can be kinda important, since many things are pseudo versions of other weapons i.e. inferno pistol, pulse rifle (for the new plasma siphon GK thing, since pulse rifle shots are described as turning into plasma before reaching target but after leaving gun)


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Ascalam wrote:doesn't matter if its a weapon either, unless you're being a loophole diver.

Its an attempt to penetrate the Monolith wih intent to make it go boom.. sounds like a weapon to me. Grenades are weapons

The text under grenades on page 36 says that any damage done with the grenade is taken into account in the units attacks in close combat, making them a close combat weapon with specific rules.

The logic may be a bit shaky on word-for-word interpretation, but its better than claiming that grenades aren't weapons at all..


I'm really tired of people trying to loophole aroung Living Metal, as the arguments are always a steaming pile of guano. If you are attacking a monolith, you get 1d6 + str.

Grenades have a str. Its figured into their damage.

4+ d6, 6 + d6 etc. Its pretty obvious to any non-lawyer that this is what's intended.

If you want to argue that grenades aren't weapons, or don't have a strength more power to you. I always admire someone willing to stand up for their beliefs, no matter how misguided. Just don't expect your opponent or the TO to convert

edited for decorum

Well it is sort of like with modern c4, it is a breach charge, a tool, but what distinguishes it from grenades? This question of grenades as weapons stretches past 40k...

I have no issue with RAW when the RAW and the RAI align, or even when the RAW is concise and clear. Its when people wave the RAW standard to say things like 'grenades aren't weapons' in order to loophole a rule it gets to me
Monstrous creatures aren't weapons either, by that definition, but they're also nulled by Living Metal, which should hint at what was actually meant

I'd be the first to agree that the Lith's rules need an update and clarification though


In game the grenades are placed charges (versus vehicles) also. Much though i like the cinematic of someone lobbing the grenade down a vindicator's barrel or into the bed of a trukk full of boyz the rules on using them say that they are strapped or wedged in place on vital or delicate parts (which is why you forgo regualr CC attacks to get one grenade attack) . Technically a breach charge is still a grenade, just not a thrown one

Ascalam wrote:I have no issue with RAW when the RAW and the RAI align, or even when the RAW is concise and clear. Its when people wave the RAW standard to say things like 'grenades aren't weapons' in order to loophole a rule it gets to me
Monstrous creatures aren't weapons either, by that definition, but they're also nulled by Living Metal, which should hint at what was actually meant

I'd be the first to agree that the Lith's rules need an update and clarification though


In game the grenades are placed charges (versus vehicles) also. Much though i like the cinematic of someone lobbing the grenade down a vindicator's barrel or into the bed of a trukk full of boyz the rules on using them say that they are strapped or wedged in place on vital or delicate parts (which is why you forgo regualr CC attacks to get one grenade attack) . Technically a breach charge is still a grenade, just not a thrown one

That's definately a pretty picture; a guardsman/Astartes charging up and rolling a G'nade down barrel/exaust pipe.

especially if the vindicator crew is just waiting (khorne especially..)

'hold it.... wait ..wait... wait...Now!'

Booooom!

Rain of body parts and smell of cooked meat...


i also like the image of the orks scrambling out of the trukk, but because of their low I doing it about as fast as Master Chief on Halo (way too fricken slow...)

Boom.

Easy solution: use EMP grenades...

Them that has them, also wraithcannon, Haywire blasters, anything Gauss etc etc..

Railgun, nuff said. You get a thirteen with snake-eyes. Pair of twos= penetrate a monolith

Yup

Liths aren't that tough.

The main reason people tend to try and bypass the Lith's rules is the Imperium's favourite tricks don't work (melta, meltabombs etc)

It usually seems to be marine and guard players trying to loophole it. Not exclusively, but a lot..

The other race it nerfs (by ignoring lance) rarely complain, but then they have other ways around it


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It used to ignore powerfists (as it specifies UNMODIFIED strength, but they whined until GW gave in and allowed Powerfists to double the strength even though it's totally against the RAW of the Monolith's rule

...other ways around it like TL railguns...

I think one of the reasons they try to nerf is that it can...you know... DEEPSTRIKE!!!

So can Landraiders, and they can fire after having done so, unlike the Lith

(at least in the Bangles codex they can )

Ascalam wrote:So can Landraiders, and they can fire after having done so, unlike the Lith

(at least in the Bangles codex they can )

That's because Matt Ward did their dex.

He also gave them flying librarian dreadnoughts. And don't liths gets a 12" all direction attack after D-striking?

Nope.

They arrive at cruising speed, so no shooty :(

im2randomghgh wrote:Railgun, nuff said. You get a thirteen with snake-eyes. Pair of twos= penetrate a monolith

10+1=11. 11 versus AV 14 isn't gonna do much. Someone needs to reread both the rules for AP1 and the rules for ordnance methinks...

Yep. im2randomghgh messed that up entirelly.

Firstly railguns are "only" S10, so snake eyes would be 12. However they arent ordnance, so you arent rolling two dice AND they arent adding those dice together even if they WERE ordnance - you pick the highest

Lastly, but not leastly, AP1 does nothing to transform glancing to penetrating any longer....

Ascalam - sorry, but powerfists always worked. The unmodified strength of a powerfist is (2 * wielder)

nosferatu1001 wrote:Yep. im2randomghgh messed that up entirelly.

Firstly railguns are "only" S10, so snake eyes would be 12. However they arent ordnance, so you arent rolling two dice AND they arent adding those dice together even if they WERE ordnance - you pick the highest

Lastly, but not leastly, AP1 does nothing to transform glancing to penetrating any longer....

Ascalam - sorry, but powerfists always worked. The unmodified strength of a powerfist is (2 * wielder)

Oh so they're not even ordnance?


The more you know...

Why must people keep on about "extra" or "additional" dice?
Maybe you should you know, read the living metal rule?

Necron codex: Snip...... In practice, any weapon attacking the Monolith will roll for armour penetration using its unaugmented strength and a single D6 no matter what

Seems pretty clear to me that 2D6 does not = a single D6.

Jackal wrote:Why must people keep on about "extra" or "additional" dice?
Maybe you should you know, read the living metal rule?

Necron codex: Snip...... In practice, any weapon attacking the Monolith will roll for armour penetration using its unaugmented strength and a single D6 no matter what

Seems pretty clear to me that 2D6 does not = a single D6.

Doesn't it specify that ordnance still works though?

Yes, because ord. is not 2D6 for pen.

Its 2D6 then pick the highest.

Rail= Str 10+AP1+D6=strong.

You would AVERAGE a glance/pen hit against a Monolith, the most heavily armoured unit in the game. AND it's TL. And XV88 team has three of the TL railgun. with targeting array they have 89% chance to hit, without, 75%.

They can generate 16.02 hits per game.
8.01 penetrating hits a game
without counting the glancing hits, a single broadside team w/ targeting array will destroy 2.67 monoliths a game.
w/o targeting array, 2.25 monoiliths a game.
and you can have three of these teams. so you could kill the strongest vehicle in the game, 8 times.

Still not worried. Played against mech tau once in a doubles game and at the end of the game (my buddy and I ended up losing but it was first time playing the new Nids and I was still pretty new in general) my 1 monolith I took had only suffered a few weapon destroyed results and some shaken/stunned results from all the "scary TL railgun fire" everyone goes on about.

*Edit*
Oh, and just FYI, no that is not the only time I've ever played against tau but my normal opponent doesn't have a large mech tau force so his lists are very different from the randoms I've played against in the store before.

Kevin949 wrote:Still not worried. Played against mech tau once in a doubles game and at the end of the game (my buddy and I ended up losing but it was first time playing the new Nids and I was still pretty new in general) my 1 monolith I took had only suffered a few weapon destroyed results and some shaken/stunned results from all the "scary TL railgun fire" everyone goes on about.

*Edit*
Oh, and just FYI, no that is not the only time I've ever played against tau but my normal opponent doesn't have a large mech tau force so his lists are very different from the randoms I've played against in the store before.

Then they either didn't have enough RGs, were unlucky, or weren't concentrating on your lith.

You got off lightly Kevin.

One of the locals by me tends to run 3x3 broads.

With 3 lith's im lucky if i can keep 1 moving.


Railfire seems to be the 2nd worsed thing for lith's.
1st being wyches with haywires.

Yay! Stickin up for RGs!

im2randomghgh wrote:

Kevin949 wrote:Still not worried. Played against mech tau once in a doubles game and at the end of the game (my buddy and I ended up losing but it was first time playing the new Nids and I was still pretty new in general) my 1 monolith I took had only suffered a few weapon destroyed results and some shaken/stunned results from all the "scary TL railgun fire" everyone goes on about.

*Edit*
Oh, and just FYI, no that is not the only time I've ever played against tau but my normal opponent doesn't have a large mech tau force so his lists are very different from the randoms I've played against in the store before.

Then they either didn't have enough RGs, were unlucky, or weren't concentrating on your lith.

Nope, possibly, nope. Look, I've played quite a number of games with crons so far since 5th edition (no, I haven't playing for very long but still) and there have been only several times where one of my liths was destroyed.

One time was during planetstrike, I DS'd in and the defense guns got a lucky shot and wrecked one.
Against my buddies nid army he got a lucky shot with a str 9 gun that had -1 to the damage chart (don't know the name of the gun).
Same buddy, BT army, dread in CC (took three rounds of CC to do it though with auto-hits cuz it was immobile already)
And one other time against my other friends SM army, lucky las cannon shot.

That's it, 4 times I've had a lith destroyed. And believe me, it is not through lack of my opponents trying. And just to be on the safe side, go ahead and add two more times to this list just in case I've forgotten one or two times, which is possible.

In all the times I've faced tau, I've never once had their rail guns take down my lith. Not to say it wont happen, but I think dakka needs to lay off the mathhammer because the statistics may be sound from a mathematical standpoint but it still doesn't mean it will be successful.


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Jackal wrote:You got off lightly Kevin.

One of the locals by me tends to run 3x3 broads.

With 3 lith's im lucky if i can keep 1 moving.


Railfire seems to be the 2nd worsed thing for lith's.
1st being wyches with haywires.

Haven't faced wyches, but I know what haywires do and I concur.

I believe the kid I played against had the same tau setup, using JSJ to keep out of LOS.

Unfortunately at the time I played him I was still a fairly new player and didn't have all the models I needed. Had I known about and taken a wraith wing with d.lord setup, with how the board was arranged he wouldn't have been able to shoot at me for long as I'd have had him in CC pretty quick. Oh well, live and learn.

Jackal wrote:Why must people keep on about "extra" or "additional" dice?
Maybe you should you know, read the living metal rule?

Necron codex: Snip...... In practice, any weapon attacking the Monolith will roll for armour penetration using its unaugmented strength and a single D6 no matter what

Seems pretty clear to me that 2D6 does not = a single D6.

Probably because they have the original printing of the codex, which does not include that final line.

Mondo - I guessed that may be a factor in this one.
However, even when its quoted people tend to ignore it and start on about "extra" dice again.

im2randomghgh wrote:Rail= Str 10+AP1+D6=strong.

You would AVERAGE a glance/pen hit against a Monolith, the most heavily armoured unit in the game. AND it's TL. And XV88 team has three of the TL railgun. with targeting array they have 89% chance to hit, without, 75%.

Average of 10+D6 is 13,5 which means you're averaging a nothing/glance.

Hammerhead railgun vs Monolith:

0.667 hits
0.3335 hits that do anything
0.222111 penetrating hits

From a team of 3 broadsides with targetting arrays, you get:

3 TL Shots
2.667333 hits
1.3336665 hits that do anything
0.888221889 hits are penetrating

Still reasonable odds.