Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Uh, you mean other than GW.

There's already a Wood Elf Lord mounted on a Stag.

Kanluwen wrote:No, Goblins have Worgs and VC have Dire Wolves.

With Goblins, they break the wolves to their will. With VC, the wolves are undead and just do their own thing.

What better creature to see in an army themed around nature and the "Wild Hunt"?


A "Hawkmaster" or "Falconer" would really be useless. What good is a little tiny bird going to do?

And if they become a big creature; how does that differentiate them from the Hawk Riders?

I believe they're called goblin "wolf" riders.... that and the models look like "wolves," not worgs.

tiny little birds could ignore armor, become rather difficult to hit, and provide a much needed unit capable of tying flankers up... wolves... well they tote gobbos around, come back from the dead, and... hang out with wood elves on the weekend?

even 40k has wolves, space wolvessssssssssssssssssssssssss

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:Wild Hunt reminds me of Herne so War Stags of Athel Loren would be suitably majestic.

They could be flesh eating stags.
AFAIK no one does deer in fantasy, though there are probably some strange folks that into fantasy about deer!

I would rather see some killer bambis before more wolves lol... maybe carnivore badgers, or man-eating, flying squirrels...

A half remembered image now you mention it Kanners.


A unit to go with him would be cool imho
Extra attacks from the antlers.

DeadBabySoup wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:No, Goblins have Worgs and VC have Dire Wolves.

With Goblins, they break the wolves to their will. With VC, the wolves are undead and just do their own thing.

What better creature to see in an army themed around nature and the "Wild Hunt"?


A "Hawkmaster" or "Falconer" would really be useless. What good is a little tiny bird going to do?

And if they become a big creature; how does that differentiate them from the Hawk Riders?

I believe they're called goblin "wolf" riders.... that and the models look like "wolves," not worgs.

tiny little birds could ignore armor, become rather difficult to hit, and provide a much needed unit capable of tying flankers up... wolves... well they tote gobbos around, come back from the dead, and... hang out with wood elves on the weekend?

even 40k has wolves, space wolvessssssssssssssssssssssssss

So you're not opposed to Chaos(mortal AND Daemonic in some cases) horses, Undead horses, Elf horses, and Human horses...but more than two races having Wolves of any type means they're "overdone"?

Something isn't right here...

While they don't out and out say they're Worgs, it's pretty much implied from the way they're depicted. The oversized canines, the furred "collar" around their necks, etc are far more distinctive of Worgs/Dire Wolves than "real" wolves.

If nothing else, having the Asrai variant be an "independent unit" that works in tandem with their Huntmaster makes them far different than the Goblins(poke 'em with a stick to get them to work) and the Vampire(they crumble to dust if they get out of line) variants.

If you really need a unit "capable of tying flankers up"--I'd suggest you start looking at Forest Spirits.

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:Wild Hunt reminds me of Herne so War Stags of Athel Loren would be suitably majestic.

They could be flesh eating stags.
AFAIK no one does deer in fantasy, though there are probably some strange folks that into fantasy about deer!

I would rather see some killer bambis before more wolves lol... maybe carnivore badgers, or man-eating, flying squirrels...

And when I think "Wild Hunt", I think of Goethe's "Erlking".

And in all seriousness: screw stags. They look ridiculous.
There's no need for Elves to be riding around on all kinds of "monstrous mounts". The normal Forest Dragon and Elven Steeds do just fine.

TBH k-nines asa group are quite common and having them participate in multiple armies is no problem. Either way some sort of unique anymal may be a better solution, the bear sounding particularry nice, but that would imply including even more animals in the army. Swapping horses for deer may be a nice start and maybe some sort of big cat for a mount or otherwise (or both) as well.

Yeah...keep the big cats the hell out as mounts. That idea is so stupid that everytime I see it being done for High Elves I want to hit someone.

Simply put: the easiest solution to make the Asrai Wolfpacks unique?

They're the manifestations of lesser Hunting Spirits, drawn to Asrai who've been touched by the Wild Hunt.

Wam, bam, done---unique unit done.

Since when did stags look ridiculous?
and any more so than wolves. hmmm

As for screwing them, cf my earlier comment about stags and fantasy.

Stags, by themselves, don't look ridiculous.

When you have an elf riding them, however...they tend to.

Make no mistake. I understand that wolves are bland and slightly generic.

But at the same time: what emphasizes the Asrai nature better?
They're intelligent animals with a structured hierarchy--but with an unbridled savagery that cannot really be matched by any creature out there.

Sorry
Just don't associate the Wood Elves with the lupine.
It doesn't fit imho.
In fantasy the wolf unfortunately is too strongly associated with the dark/evil forces.

Wolves are more ridiculous with riders. There anatomy is totally unsuited for anything bigger than a Night Goblin.
No other faction has deer so the woodland browser would be uniquely Wood Elven.

Intelligent, heirachical and savage suits other forces too. Nope just don't see the association. Nor sadly do I make a connection between the Elf King and Herne the Hunter.
Think as ever we will have to differ

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:Sorry
Just don't associate the Wood Elves with the lupine.
It doesn't fit imho.
In fantasy the wolf unfortunately is too strongly associated with the dark/evil forces.

Not true. The myth of Romulus and Remus are a perfect example of wolves being 'guardians and companions' rather than 'killers'. The Native Americans had plenty of the same mythos associated with wolves. It's really only in medieval Europe that you saw wolves being demonized and painted

Wolves are more ridiculous with riders. There anatomy is totally unsuited for anything bigger than a Night Goblin.
No other faction has deer so the woodland browser would be uniquely Wood Elven.

...And that's why I continually have stressed "no wolf riders"? I mean really, Chibi. I figured the idea of a Wood Elf Hunter being accompanied by a pack of spirits taking the form of a wolf is perfectly Asrai.

Intelligent, heirachical and savage suits other forces too. Nope just don't see the association. Nor sadly do I make a connection between the Elf King and Herne the Hunter.
Think as ever we will have to differ

Ehhh.
Intelligent and structured maybe. But the "savage" part is really common to two factions:
The Asrai and the Beastmen.

You can't compare horses and wolves really, because horses have a neutrality to them being a typical animal bred solely for domestication. Wolves do not. They aren't normally domesticated for a purpose that fits mankind.

And while Indians might have revered the wolf, the demonization of wolves wasn't just particular to Europe. All American settlers demonized them as well which in fact, pushed them to the brink of extinction.

Wolves are for the bad guys!!!


Personally, I like the stag model, it fits the fluff and looks pretty badass. It was one of the reasons why I picked WE up. A unit of them would be pretty kool I think.

I'm meh on the big cats too but mountain lions might work but knowing GW, they will probably come out looking like garfield hehe...

I'm definately open to a huntsman concept, I think the way you explained it is right on, just not wolves...

what about owlbears??? or giant rabbits????

DeadBabySoup wrote:

You can't compare horses and wolves really, because horses have a neutrality to them being a typical animal bred solely for domestication. Wolves do not. They aren't normally domesticated for a purpose that fits mankind.

Sure you can compare horses and wolves. Horses have, in Warhammer, always featured attributes of their parent race.
Look at the Chaos Knight's steeds. They'll usually have very subtle mutations that put them as very clearly "Chaos".
Look at the Empire steeds versus the Bretonnian steeds. They're similar, but different. The barding alone sees to that.
Then look at the Elven steeds, especially the Wood Elf ones and the more recent Dragon Prince steeds. They have the almond-shaped eyes and sort of 'perked' ears that mark them as being Elvish.

And who says anything about "domestication"? The Elves have a "God of the Hunt". In fact, Orion is the living avatar of him. Wolves are even called the "Children of Kurunous" in the recent 'Shadow King' novel--where a High Elf lives for a time amongst a pack of wolves, hunting alongside them.

If a High Elf can do it, you can bet your arse a Wood Elf could

And while Indians might have revered the wolf, the demonization of wolves wasn't just particular to Europe. All American settlers demonized them as well which in fact, pushed them to the brink of extinction.

This isn't 100% true.

The European settlers are what pushed them to the brink of extinction. Coyotes were more demonized by the American settlers circa the Western Expansion than wolves were.

Wolves are for the bad guys!!!

Eh. Not in my book.

Personally, I like the stag model, it fits the fluff and looks pretty badass. It was one of the reasons why I picked WE up. A unit of them would be pretty kool I think.

"Cool". The word is "cool".
And the Stag is a recent addition to the Wood Elf line-up. Supposedly it was because someone had been watching "Princess Monoke" but who knows.

For that matter: it's really not a "beast". It's a Forest Spirit that takes the form of a beast. What's wrong with that happening for the wolves, eh?

I'm meh on the big cats too but mountain lions might work but knowing GW, they will probably come out looking like garfield hehe...

I'm definately open to a huntsman concept, I think the way you explained it is right on, just not wolves...

Why would mountain lions work if wolves wouldn't?
Mountain lions are fiercely territorial, solitary hunters.

Plus--Ogres already have them.

what about owlbears??? or giant rabbits????

What about Owlbears? And what the devil would "giant rabbits" have to do with anything?

The Wood Elves aren't "treehuggers". They're more like...
Well, you know the idea of the "crazy mountain man"? The guy who kills trespassers for sport?

Yeah. That's partially what the Wood Elves are like.

Wolves, Bears, Stags, Boars... The answer is obvious:

I said fantasy, not myth.
If the wolves are not going to be ridden then there is less point in having them. Wolves would be skirmishers which WE already have in groves.

Though it did occur to me that Waywatcher Wolf cav might have a place with the scout rule though they would have to pass an leadership test if the unit stops within 6" of Dryads or treekin to avoid having to stop and sniff.

Ditto any deer or they have to browse.

Without riders wolves could go with the waydancers....
yes you got it, Waydances with Wolves.

Kanluwen wrote:Yeah...keep the big cats the hell out as mounts. That idea is so stupid that everytime I see it being done for High Elves I want to hit someone.

Yes it is overdone and yet i don't see you suggesting anything else.
As nice as deers and bears would be having only those two animals present is just too limited, it's nature after all and its quite diverse cats, pigs and k-nines, of all sizes are likely to be allied with the "nature elves" to protect their home.

Kanluwen wrote:
Sure you can compare horses and wolves. Horses have, in Warhammer, always featured attributes of their parent race.
Look at the Chaos Knight's steeds. They'll usually have very subtle mutations that put them as very clearly "Chaos".
Look at the Empire steeds versus the Bretonnian steeds. They're similar, but different. The barding alone sees to that.
Then look at the Elven steeds, especially the Wood Elf ones and the more recent Dragon Prince steeds. They have the almond-shaped eyes and sort of 'perked' ears that mark them as being Elvish.

Right, but horses serve as mounts for most races well, because horses are commonly domesticated to serve as mounts for most races. Wolves aren't, minus the gobbos. There really isn't a comparison here, unless you prefer that more armies use wolves as mounts, which isn't the case.

Kanluwen wrote:
If a High Elf can do it, you can bet your arse a Wood Elf could

If high elves use big cats such as lions then you bet your arse a wood elf could , or so your form of logic here indicates.

Kanluwen wrote:
The European settlers are what pushed them to the brink of extinction. Coyotes were more demonized by the American settlers circa the Western Expansion than wolves were.

Someone need to recheck their facts!!! try wiki- hunting wolves... might be a good start

Kanluwen wrote:

DeadBabySoup wrote:
Wolves are for the bad guys!!!

Eh. Not in my book.

Eh. They are in my book!

Kanluwen wrote:
"Cool". The word is "cool".

Wait, it's spelled cool? COOL! I spell it kool, like in Kool-aid! Other people spell it like kewl. I know it's crazy, I know, but hey! It's fun! Plus I don't see how attempting to korrect my spelling has any impakt on the topik we are diskussing. However, if you like to play English teacher then by all means, feel free...

Kanluwen wrote:
Why would mountain lions work if wolves wouldn't?
Mountain lions are fiercely territorial, solitary hunters.

Plus--Ogres already have them.

Wolves are also fiercely territorial and the tend to be solitary hunters for most of their lives, as it actually increases their chance of survival.

Kanluwen wrote:
What about Owlbears? And what the devil would "giant rabbits" have to do with anything?

this was sarcasm, but I will try to behave I promise

Kanluwen wrote:
The Wood Elves aren't "treehuggers". They're more like...
Well, you know the idea of the "crazy mountain man"? The guy who kills trespassers for sport?

Yeah. That's partially what the Wood Elves are like.

Wood Elves aren't Rednecks... They have a nobility about them, but how bout a crazy mountain lion to go with your crazy mountain man? Sounds crazy!!!

thecooter wrote:Wolves, Bears, Stags, Boars... The answer is obvious:

lol

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:I said fantasy, not myth.
If the wolves are not going to be ridden then there is less point in having them. Wolves would be skirmishers which WE already have in groves.

Though it did occur to me that Waywatcher Wolf cav might have a place with the scout rule though they would have to pass an leadership test if the unit stops within 6" of Dryads or treekin to avoid having to stop and sniff.

Ditto any deer or they have to browse.

Without riders wolves could go with the waydancers....
yes you got it, Waydances with Wolves.

Where's my kevin costner mini?????

HoverBoy wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Yeah...keep the big cats the hell out as mounts. That idea is so stupid that everytime I see it being done for High Elves I want to hit someone.

Yes it is overdone and yet i don't see you suggesting anything else.
As nice as deers and bears would be having only those two animals present is just too limited, it's nature after all and its quite diverse cats, pigs and k-nines, of all sizes are likely to be allied with the "nature elves" to protect their home.

I agree, I really don't want to see big cats in WE's but wolves aren't just their bread and butter either and the variety of animals currently are pretty limiting. Perhaps something else bordering more mythical and fantasy than reality? Or or perhaps Animal swarms of a more generic sense... Kanluwen's suggestion that spites host a variety of animals to make the unit seems fitting here. Don't they also have access to Unicorns? a unit of these might kick arse. Still thinking on this one fer sure.

I think my brain just blew up...

Unicorns and Stags are 'meh', but what makes them really unique is that they're just that. Not every Asrai has access to them, they're rare and mythical--even amongst the Asrai, who live in the forest of Athel Loren their entire lives.

It is tough to try to find some unique animals to fit into the WE theme. I've seen most people agreeing that the WE have a celtic feel to them, so maybe this may be a place to start.

http://www.joellessacredgrove.com/Celtic/animalallies.html

I am partial to the wolves (already done), griffins (already done), bear, badger (would have to be of the giant variety ), and maybe a flock of birds. The dragons, unicorns, hawks, eagles, and stags are already in the WE list.

Quite frankly, if we're going to avoid things that are "already done"--then Wood Elves are going to have to be dropped because every army already has archers, spirits, and swords.

Kanluwen wrote:Quite frankly, if we're going to avoid things that are "already done"--then Wood Elves are going to have to be dropped because every army already has archers, spirits, and swords.

lol. Which is why I am still partial to having wolves and the rest.

One big thing I'd do is lose the Warhawk Riders, replace them with Hippogryphon Riders.

Why?
It builds kind of a visible tie to the Bretonnians.

I think unicorn riders would be good without having to do conversions. Maybe just a character on a unicorn. Or maybe and i know this is a long shot bring back the faerie queen as a playable character and give her an awesome new look.

We've already got Unicorn characters in the Wood Elf list. They're only options for Mages of the Glamourweave Kindred though.

I don't think them as a kind of "cavalry" choice would be that good of an idea though.

Re Celtic sources.
The triad of animals in the Mabinogion are Stag, Pig and Wolf iirc.

The Gundstrupp bowl has stags with Cerronos.

Well done on the blue wall Deadly...
14 S/He wrotes must be some sort of record.
(is that a quadraduplet?)

Kanluwen wrote:One big thing I'd do is lose the Warhawk Riders, replace them with Hippogryphon Riders.

Why?
It builds kind of a visible tie to the Bretonnians.

I was thinking something similar the other day, been playing with idea of pegasus riders for some counts as warhawk riders.

Figured the Brets had to get their flying ponies from somewhere and it can't be a coincidence with a large magical forest on your doorstep

I knew about the mages being a playable option as far as the rules. i was talking about the addition of a figure that is supposed to ride a unicorn rather tham me having to get a separate unicorn and trying to figure out turning a standing figure into a rider.

What i think would be cool isa forest rhino, and GW can even base it off the IRL sumatran rhino.
And it's only been done once in all of the warhammer armies.

I'd much rather the wolves than a Rhino which belongs firmly in 40K

Lorena, iirc there used to be a rider on unicorn, as you probably already know so apologies for stating the obvious

... but have to agree, it is rather odd that there is no model. Have seen grail maiden conversions. Have a unicorn and may try a sculpt myself for the waysinger at some point.

I sort of like the hawkriders Kanners but the Brett link is a good notion (so we sometimes do agree on things! )

Kanluwen wrote:Quite frankly, if we're going to avoid things that are "already done"--then Wood Elves are going to have to be dropped because every army already has archers, spirits, and swords.

hehe... I think you're really missing the point. The idea was to give the WE something relating to the forest animals of Asari. You said wolves, I said no. Great, no problem look, two people disagreeing with an issue that has no right or wrong answer. It's going to be ok fella.

Other than wolves, I haven't seen you gone up with any other suggestions really, it's as if someone doesn't agree with what you think is correct, you just continue to shoot everyone's ideas down regardless of what they are. Quite frankly, pessimism doesn't suit the thread.

On that note, if you all want, check this out: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_legendary_creatures

There is a bunch of stuff with a more mythical element and while most of it won't fit the profile (demons, ghosts etc...) there are a few that could. And to add to that I was thinking about stampedes or herds of some kind, of buffalo perhaps or maybe a mount of this nature.

The pegasus idea is interesting as it has a more noble, heroic personification, but I'm not up to snuff on bretonnian fluff to pass judgement.