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DeadBabySoup wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Quite frankly, if we're going to avoid things that are "already done"--then Wood Elves are going to have to be dropped because every army already has archers, spirits, and swords.

hehe... I think you're really missing the point. The idea was to give the WE something relating to the forest animals of Asari. You said wolves, I said no. Great, no problem look, two people disagreeing with an issue that has no right or wrong answer. It's going to be ok fella.

No the idea is it's a wishlisting thread. As in things we want to see and why we want to see them. Not just "I want X".

Other than wolves, I haven't seen you gone up with any other suggestions really, it's as if someone doesn't agree with what you think is correct, you just continue to shoot everyone's ideas down regardless of what they are. Quite frankly, pessimism doesn't suit the thread.

Other than y'know, hippogryph riders or regiments having an attached "Wild Mage" allowing them to hop from forest to forest?

Yeah. I totally haven't "gone up" with any other suggestions(I'm assuming you mean "come up with").

On that note, if you all want, check this out: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_legendary_creatures

There is a bunch of stuff with a more mythical element and while most of it won't fit the profile (demons, ghosts etc...) there are a few that could. And to add to that I was thinking about stampedes or herds of some kind, of buffalo perhaps or maybe a mount of this nature.

...Why would you have "stampedes or herds" in a forest?
Herds, maybe. Stampedes? Not really.
As for the "list of legendary creatures"--most of them that actually fit the Wood Elf aesthetic? They're already in the force.

The pegasus idea is interesting as it has a more noble, heroic personification, but I'm not up to snuff on bretonnian fluff to pass judgement.

You don't need to be up to snuff on Bretonnian fluff to know that they've got Pegasus mounted knights

Let's keep it civil, fellas...

One WE player to another and all that, eh? Or if I'm talking about myself, former WE player...

*chases RiTides out of the thread*

This is the Wood Elf clubhouse, fella!

In all honesty: Wood Elves are either going to be reworked so well that they'll "play the same", but they won't be immediately recognizable or they're going to be reworked so ineptly it will be an entire army of Jokaero.

Was thinking about the leadership test wolves and deer would be required to pass if they get within 6" of Dryads or Treekin.

How about for a company of wolves, "The Rune of the Mystic Forest Lampost" 25pts.
Wolves autopass having to sniff the Tree Spirits.

Deer units could have something along the lines of "Rune of the Haigh" 25pts, which means they don't need to take a leadership test not to browse and nibble on the Tree Spirits as they are mystically fed on holly leaves.

Is 25 pts too expensive? Maybe 15?

Forget the idea of the "Wolves" actually being beasts.

Think of them as being Spirits of fallen Elven Hunters; devoted to Kurnuos; actually taking the form of a spectral wolf accompanying an Elf Hunter with the appropriate Kindred upgrade.

Far cooler, right?

RiTides wrote: Or if I'm talking about myself, former WE player...

will keep working on tempting you back from the darkside

Spectral animals for the Tree Sprit does sound good.

Have tried bribing RiTides, Jim, but he was immune to my offers. Will try money next time.
It was a mistake sending a pic of me in fish net stockings.


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ps
He said the ogres were more attractive for some reason

Kanluwen wrote:
You don't need to be up to snuff on Bretonnian fluff to know that they've got Pegasus mounted knights

To be fair I was not sure on where the Brets got their Pegasus from, If they got them from the Athel Loren I can imagine the conversation as thus;

Bretonnian: Excuse me Mr Wood Elf can we borrow some of your flying horses to breed and to be trained as mounts?

Wood Elf: Only on the condition you stop sending your knights on quests in here, Don't you realise plate armour is non-biodegradable!


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Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:
Have tried bribing RiTides, Jim, but he was immune to my offers. Will try money next time.
It was a mistake sending a pic of me in fish net stockings.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
ps
He said the ogres were more attractive for some reason

Damn and that was our best offer

WombleJim wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
You don't need to be up to snuff on Bretonnian fluff to know that they've got Pegasus mounted knights

To be fair I was not sure on where the Brets got their Pegasus from, If they got them from the Athel Loren I can imagine the conversation as thus;

Bretonnian: Excuse me Mr Wood Elf can we borrow some of your flying horses to breed and to be trained as mounts?

Wood Elf: Only on the condition you stop sending your knights on quests in here, Don't you realise plate armour is non-biodegradable!

I just went and looked it up.

Apparently, they get their mounts from the "slopes of the Grey Mountains"--with the majority of Pegasus Knights hailing from the area around Parravon.

The Grey Mountains, do, it seems arc their way down into Athel Loren--so the idea's a good 'un

Hippogryphs are the same, seemingly.

I really don't like the elven hunting pack idea, it's cool for fluff, but WE have enough harassment/mobility units.

I DO like the stampede idea, nothing seems more elfy than pointing a herd of Forrest buffalo at an enemy and then setting them loose as a living battering ram. That has always been the dynamic: the Asrai are the harassment/support, Athel Loren is the heavy hitter. I think a strong counter charge unit, especially of monstrous cavalry would be awesome and plug some serious holes in the list. If you absolutely had to you could have some elven cowboys steering bareback, I would replace wild rider with this unit, then make wild riders an upgrade to glade riders.
+1 to the kindred as core idea
+1 to infantry glade bows
+1 to better dances
+1 to usable special chars

Edit: +1 to spite swarm

Forest Buffalo?
With cowboys? is this a wind up?
I know it is fantasy and we could have herds of grazing big cats, but forest buffalo and cowboys?

We'll be having hordes of pygmies next riding Impala next!

Sorry Kiwidru.
I just like my celto saxon mythology free from African fauna.
Now look what you made me do, I feel like a nazi now I have said that!
AAARGH! I need to shower in bleach scrubbed with razor wire to feel clean again!

It's a made up game with magic, elves, sentient trees, and a forest hive mind, and you linger on the term buffalo? Even though in India/Asia they have tons of large hooved and non hooved animals in dense vegitation? Meh, make up a new animal, or call it a rhinox or whatever, I think the idea is cool, reminds me of green in magic the gathering

Note that Elves are a North European phenomena. Celts and Saxons aren't based in Africa/ India
If you want an Ind Army...

Woolly Rhinos are painted on the cave walls of France and Spain.

Have you not noticed that the fauna is related to the type of environment based on geography and myth?
Even within the fantasy realms of WH there is an internal logic.
You start tinkering with that overmuch and it falls apart into cheap gimmicks and gimcrackery.
The successful and enduring fantasy literature have all recognised this.
Mythologies and folklore are grounded with place.

"meh" it's only a game. But one I was interested in it because the background was something that tied in with familiar and powerful mythological systems.
You are welcome to have having stampeding buffalo through Athel Loren. If GW start crowbarring that sort of nonsense in it will be ta ta cocker with the wave of a hanky.

Kiwidru wrote:I really don't like the elven hunting pack idea, it's cool for fluff, but WE have enough harassment/mobility units.

We don't know how many of them will actually survive into the next iteration. With how the rules were changed and how Beastmen were changed, it's likely we'll see a big shift in the way Wood Elves are organized.

For all we know: Eternal Guard will be a mainstay troop choice, with Glade Guard being available for the same Core slots--and Dryads/Treekin/Treemen being a kind of magical construct created by a spell from the Lore of Athel Loren.

The idea for this isn't what we want with this book in mind. It's what we want with the next iteration.


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Kiwidru wrote:It's a made up game with magic, elves, sentient trees, and a forest hive mind, and you linger on the term buffalo? Even though in India/Asia they have tons of large hooved and non hooved animals in dense vegitation? Meh, make up a new animal, or call it a rhinox or whatever, I think the idea is cool, reminds me of green in magic the gathering

This isn't actually true.

Most of the "buffalo" in India/Asia? They're called "water buffalo" for a reason--they live in the more open/less dense areas that surround the rivers.

Umm . . . getting back to the wolf argument, I am not the biggest fan of the sculpts, but doesn't Orion have some wolf-HOUND models with him? I think a wolfhound looks a good deal cooler than a wolf (which as stated is kinda taken already).

I know chaos has hounds, but they are more like mutated mastiffs. I don't know how many of you are dog lovers, but I think wolfhounds are some of the prettier dogs and could make great sculpts.

Also a group of wolfhounds with a packmaster fits the psudo-medievel style of fantasy. Thoughts?

Also if they ever make a unicorn model specific to Wood elves again, I hope it looks more goat-ish with cloven hooves et al. I don't really see dense forest as a great breeding ground for horses . . . but cervids (deer) and caprids (goats) would do just fine.

Trouble with wolfhounds is they are human bred dogs.
(why does that sound wrong? )
You know what I mean

Bretts yes Empire yes WE... hmmm not so sure.

Totally agree about the unicorn.
Not forgetting that unicorns are not cutesy my little ponies but fierce flesh eating monsters! They could only be captured by a virgin so according to legend, RPGers would have no problems taming the beastie.

Bastion of Mediocrity wrote:Umm . . . getting back to the wolf argument, I am not the biggest fan of the sculpts, but doesn't Orion have some wolf-HOUND models with him? I think a wolfhound looks a good deal cooler than a wolf (which as stated is kinda taken already).

They're less wolfhound and more Irish Setter

Wolfhounds sounds better to me than straight up wolves (I know Kan, they're spirits...), and they kind of already fit the theme of the army (y'know, cause Orion already has them).

I think EG should be about 8 points a model to compete with the other core troops in the game and GG should be 9 or 10 with basically the same rules as now.

For models, I'd expect plastic kits for EG, Treekin, and the Treeman and that's about it, maybe wild riders but I'd be surprised.

Ozymandias wrote:Wolfhounds sounds better to me than straight up wolves (I know Kan, they're spirits...), and they kind of already fit the theme of the army (y'know, cause Orion already has them).

Wolfhounds definitely work, but I wanted to avoid them specifically because Orion has them. They always seemed like they were something signature to him and him alone.

I think EG should be about 8 points a model to compete with the other core troops in the game and GG should be 9 or 10 with basically the same rules as now.

I have to wonder if we'll see EG getting shields/spears as standard and being permanently shifted to Core or if they'll retain their sword-staves and requirement of an Eternal Kindred hero .

For models, I'd expect plastic kits for EG, Treekin, and the Treeman and that's about it, maybe wild riders but I'd be surprised.

I would be surprised if we don't see some kind of dedicated 'hero' kit similar to what we saw with the High Elves, Orcs and Empire.

@ Chibi, I get that here on Earth humans bred wolfhounds (and Irish Setters), but in the Old World the woods are a scary and dark place for humans. . . so wood elves live there. I think with the Asrai having specially raised horses (an animal bred by humans), they also fit as having specially raised wolf hounds.

IMHO Asrai are more Celtic than Native American, so that would be more friendly to wolfhounds than to wolves (whom as far as I know did not have a good reputation in Dark Europe).

Personally I hope that GW finds a better niche for wolves than goblin mount, but I would prefer it in Beastmen and I'd prefer them with a were- in front.

Bastion of Mediocrity wrote:@ Chibi, I get that here on Earth humans bred wolfhounds (and Irish Setters), but in the Old World the woods are a scary and dark place for humans. . . so wood elves live there. I think with the Asrai having specially raised horses (an animal bred by humans), they also fit as having specially raised wolf hounds.

The funny thing is that horses were something that the humans didn't have prior to their contact with Elves, at least that's the way it's been made to seem. So horses were, in fact, introduced to humans from the Elves.

As for the "specially raised horses" bit, I'm not too sold on that being a good reason for wolfhounds(and not just because I prefer wolves either ). The Elven steeds that the Asrai use are kept in an entirely secluded glade which has its own permanent vigil to prevent thievery or spirits getting uppity.

IMHO Asrai are more Celtic than Native American, so that would be more friendly to wolfhounds than to wolves (whom as far as I know did not have a good reputation in Dark Europe).

Like I said early on, wolves pre-Christianity and the Dark Ages had a pretty good reputation. Rome, in fact, had the myth of its founding tied inextricably to a she-wolf guarding and raising Romulus and Remus.

Your point about the "dark and scary forest" isn't lost on me though. And it just makes more sense for, imo, the Asrai to have wolves.
I mean, the Asrai as it stands? They're the very definition of 'primal' and they're considered by the two human factions and the Dwarves and even the High Elves to essentially be fey and brutal guardians of the forest. What better way to emphasize the fact that they're 'more animal than Elf' now, than to have them actually fighting alongside one of the most terrifying natural predators in existence?

Personally I hope that GW finds a better niche for wolves than goblin mount, but I would prefer it in Beastmen and I'd prefer them with a were- in front.

You know what the Wood Elf "Alter" Kindred are, right? They can "adopt aspects of the creatures who dwell within Athel Loren".

It doesn't necessarily say if it's just like they channel the 'spirit' of the animal or full on take its form and attributes.

Kanluwen wrote:

Bastion of Mediocrity wrote:@ Chibi, I get that here on Earth humans bred wolfhounds (and Irish Setters), but in the Old World the woods are a scary and dark place for humans. . . so wood elves live there. I think with the Asrai having specially raised horses (an animal bred by humans), they also fit as having specially raised wolf hounds.

The funny thing is that horses were something that the humans didn't have prior to their contact with Elves, at least that's the way it's been made to seem. So horses were, in fact, introduced to humans from the Elves.

Where is this ever stated in Wood Elf canon? The woodies ride Elven steeds, the same ones that the High Elves and Dark Elves ride, and I don't think those two got them from humans.

Ozymandias wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

Bastion of Mediocrity wrote:@ Chibi, I get that here on Earth humans bred wolfhounds (and Irish Setters), but in the Old World the woods are a scary and dark place for humans. . . so wood elves live there. I think with the Asrai having specially raised horses (an animal bred by humans), they also fit as having specially raised wolf hounds.

The funny thing is that horses were something that the humans didn't have prior to their contact with Elves, at least that's the way it's been made to seem. So horses were, in fact, introduced to humans from the Elves.

Where is this ever stated in Wood Elf canon? The woodies ride Elven steeds, the same ones that the High Elves and Dark Elves ride, and I don't think those two got them from humans.

I said that it seems that horses were introduced to humans from the Elves.

However, that's just speculation on my part because the fluff on the early tribes has no mention of horsemen until they encountered the Elves still living within the Old World.

Misread your post, but I still don't see the fluff you're referring to. In the Nagash books they have horses and had very little to no contact with Elves (other than the captured Dark Elves).

Ozymandias wrote:Misread your post, but I still don't see the fluff you're referring to. In the Nagash books they have horses and had very little to no contact with Elves (other than the captured Dark Elves).

Fair point, but with Nagash they already had an established civilization and were at such a point that they could capture Dark Elves--stealing some Elven horses wouldn't be a difficult task don't you think?

I was specifically referring to the Bretonnians/Empire, both of which seemingly had no real contact with horses prior to their contact with Elvenkind.

@kanluwen, you make some great points, when I refered to horses being "human-bred" animals, I meant in the real world. Similar to how wolfhounds are. So both would fit the Asrai IMO.

I agree that wolves would fit as well, but I prefer the savage version of wolves, not the noble/misunderstood hunter version. Just a taste thing. It may also be that I am biased against the idea because I have an O&G army as well.

I never thought of the alters as werewolves, to me werewolves are cursed with bloodthirstiness. I see Alters as spiritwalkers, once again a matter of taste. . . .

Bastion of Mediocrity wrote:@kanluwen, you make some great points, when I refered to horses being "human-bred" animals, I meant in the real world. Similar to how wolfhounds are. So both would fit the Asrai IMO.

More than fair, but I think wolfhounds would be more appropriate for Bretonnia or the High Elves. Both races are more 'distinguished' and fit the ideal that I associate wolfhounds with('sport' hunters, rather than actual woodsmen who've bonded with a wild animal).

I agree that wolves would fit as well, but I prefer the savage version of wolves, not the noble/misunderstood hunter version. Just a taste thing. It may also be that I am biased against the idea because I have an O&G army as well.

Well...you can have both in the Wood Elves.

Plus like I said: it doesn't necessarily have to be a 'living wolf'.
Wolves that look like branches bound in a form of a wolf, animated by the spirits of fallen Asrai hunters, returned to the realm of Athel Loren to once more stalk the foe alongside their living brethren.

How's that for an idea?

I never thought of the alters as werewolves, to me werewolves are cursed with bloodthirstiness. I see Alters as spiritwalkers, once again a matter of taste. . . .

With the Alter Kindred, it's maddeningly vague. All we have to go on is that "they can adopt aspects of the creatures within Athel Loren". They seem to be either of two types:
Like Druids of D&D where they can actually turn themselves into the animal in question or more like the Hunters from Warcraft and Rangers from Everquest were where they can buff their personal attributes using the 'aspect' of that animal.

OK, I am 100% behind you on the spirit/bramble wolf! That sounds awesome! Let's send threatening letters to the design staff until them make them! lol

Threatening letters are a no-no, BoM

Just send them nicely worded letters, with a half-decent unit idea as an outline.

Glade guard longbows should be str4 no matter the range and armor piercing.