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May the the blessings of His Grace the Emperor tumble down upon you like a golden fog. (Only a VERY select few will get this reference. And it's not from 40k. )
Kanluwen wrote:Except most 'lasers' you won't actually see outside of having very specific circumstances.
Look at a laser rangefinder. The light is outside of the visible spectrum--unless there's smoke or just the right conditions.
What I'm trying to convey is that the flash supressor on a rifle redirects the light from the explosion of the gunpowder in other directions than outward.
A las-rifle, on the other hand, has no excess flash because as a laser, the light is focused together.
I'm well aware of how a flash suppressor works, thanks.
The point I'm conveying is that just because it's a laser weapon does not mean that it will be in the visible spectrum, nor that it will be a single continuous beam.
The 'beams' described in the various Guard novels are also noted as being the afterimages of the bolts, implying that they travel much like a bullet rather than a single coherent beam of light(like the Covenant in Halo's "Focus Rifle"). That also, in turn, implies that you could feasibly suppress the flash from the rifle going off.
The bolt itself makes light, but where has it ever been described that the barrel does when fired?
The bolt does not make light. The bolt superheating the air surrounding it is what creates the light and afterimages.
It's the same effect that you'd have to worry about with railguns and other mass driver weaponry. The friction of the projectile superheats the air and creates an afterimage, but you could feasibly muffle that effect by having a barrel that effectively 'devours' the excess heat when fired.
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GalacticDefender wrote:
xxmatt85 wrote:How come we never see silencers on weapons in 40k?
Just imagine bolters and lasguns with silencers O_O.
Some of the space marine scouts look like they have silencers on their pistols. Also the scout sniper rifles are silenced iirc.
The pistols do not have 'silencers'. Those are just the normal bolt pistols that they've had Scouts using for awhile.
The 'scout sniper rifles' also are naturally silenced, since they're Needle Rifles.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/03/17 23:59:41
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Platuan4th wrote:
Witzkatz wrote:
Grey Templar wrote: Lasguns create a loud crack when fired.
the beam is also visible.
this is because the lasgun doesn't actually fire a Laser.
the Lasgun uses a laser to agitate a gas in a special chamber. the gas then changes into plasma and is ejected from the barrel of the gun at hypersonic speed.
the sonic boom(or crack) is the plasma leaving the barrel really fast.
the "laser beam" is actually an after-image left by the plasma pulse.
Could you cite sources for that? I don't believe that is actually the case.
It's not for 40K. He's confusing Star Wars Blasters for Lasguns.
read the Uplifting Primer and Munitorum manuel.
they are the only actual direct GW material on the subject. BL gets stuff wrong sometimes.
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Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Grey Templar wrote: Lasguns create a loud crack when fired.
the beam is also visible.
this is because the lasgun doesn't actually fire a Laser.
the Lasgun uses a laser to agitate a gas in a special chamber. the gas then changes into plasma and is ejected from the barrel of the gun at hypersonic speed.
the sonic boom(or crack) is the plasma leaving the barrel really fast.
the "laser beam" is actually an after-image left by the plasma pulse.
Could you cite sources for that? I don't believe that is actually the case.
It's not for 40K. He's confusing Star Wars Blasters for Lasguns.
read the Uplifting Primer and Munitorum manuel.
they are the only actual direct GW material on the subject. BL gets stuff wrong sometimes.
I have read both, and I don't remember gas being mentioned(btb, they're both produced by BL, too, NOT the main GW studio).
Either way, the actual studio books(the rulebooks and Codex) both state that it emits a beam of focused light, NOT a plasma bolt.
3rd edition rulebook: Laser weapons emit a highly focused beam of light. The short duration high energy beam produces such a rapid temperature change on the target's surface that it vaporises in a small explosion.
Lasguns fire with a searing flash of light and the distinctive snap or crack of ionised air, each pull of the trigger firing a single shot.
Rechargeable power packs feed the discharge generator. Power packs usually possess a highly efficient liquid metal core and vary from small internal packs for lasguns and pistols, to crate sized for lascannons and larger las weapons. Most light power packs provide forty shots, compared to the lascannon packs which are good for only one shot. Las weapons can be overpowered with "Hotshot" power packs, providing more power but less shots. Hotshot packs cannot easily be recharged and the extra stress put on the barrel requires much more maintenance. Power packs can be easily recharged by exposing them to heat, or sunlight through solar converters. In an emergency a pack can be placed in a fire and quickly recharged, although this method shortens the life of the pack and can destroy it altogether.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2011/03/18 01:30:41
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Yeah, check out my silenced "UZIEL" Pattern Bolt Gun, pretty soon all SM Characters will want an UZI Bolt gun...
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Guys, I think you're all forgetting one key thing about 40k:
This is a universe where huge armies in giant fleets of ships travel across the galaxy so that they can travel down to a planet and attack each other with chainsaws. There's no need for silencers because there's no need for stealth. Everyone gets full battlefield tactical information from their orbiting ships, so there's no way to hide. And, you wouldn't want to hide. The only reason the battle on the ground matters is for purely entertainment purposes.
It's the same reason that most armies paint themselves bright colors. They want to be visible for the TV cameras.
As to the deafness thing, I have yet to see more than a hand full of soldiers not wearing helmets.
The IG Helmets are really bulky around the ears
I wonder why . . .
the supressor increaces the amount of friction on the progectile as it leaves the bareel and enters the supressor slowing the progectile down reducing its range thats why surpressors get so hot so quickly
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/03/19 07:35:11
Could you really silence or suppress a bolt? The silencer works by slowing a projectile down to subsonic speed while muzzle flash is handled by a shroud. But bolts accelerate AFTER they leave the barrel by igniting their main propellant and I would Imagine going supersonic. So it would stand to reason that once the main propellant charge goes off after the bolt has left the barrel that you would then have a possible visible sign of ignition followed by most likely a supersonic crack.
It follows the description of bolters being quite loud and noisy (why orks used to love them before GW switched them to Shootas). Each time you fire a bolt you should get two loud cracks, one from the ejection charge produced in the barrel and one from the main charge after it leaves the barrel. Quite a racket when firing three round bursts or full auto.
I don't see anyway to hide that, much like the (what is it in this edition) 10 foot tall 800 pound armored monstrosity that is toting it. One handed mind you. I've always wondered what the marines would use for clandestine missions. Even scouts don't seam the inconspicuous when you think of their size and weight. I mean the British used Gurkhas for a reason. Scouts have to weigh 600 pounds and are at least 7 feet tall in armor. You are not sneaking past anyone. You can forget things like climbing of tree branches unless you can find one to support the weight. They would be defeated by rickety rope bridges.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2011/03/19 08:22:24
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Andrew1975 wrote:Could you really silence or suppress a bolt? The silencer works by slowing a projectile down to subsonic speed
No, they don't. They slow the bullet down as a side effect of it scraping against the inside of the silencer, and it slightly lowers the sound by muffling the expanding gas. There are subsonic rounds used with silencers, some of which can even leave the shot quieter than the action of the gun, but those are pretty rare simply because of the problems such low muzzle velocities cause.
But bolts accelerate AFTER they leave the barrel by igniting their main propellant and I would Imagine going supersonic. So it would stand to reason that once the main propellant charge goes off after the bolt has left the barrel that you would then have a possible visible sign of ignition followed by most likely a supersonic crack.
xxmatt85 wrote:How come we never see silencers on weapons in 40k?
Just imagine bolters and lasguns with silencers O_O.
Umm, how does a 'silenced' laser work?
If bolters are effectively similar to gyro-jets (vague resemblance, granted) how is this silenced?
If I am confused, someone please enlighten me.
The bolt shell in a silenced bolter is different from standard ones...
From what i have read about lasguns they make a cracking sound when they fire which is apparently the gas being released when they fire (not entirely sure how they work to be honest) a silenced lasgun would presumably have some kind of gas-suppression-system or something...
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For silencers to really work you must fire sub-sonic ammo out of them. I mean you can fire ammo that is over sonic speeds, but it wears and tears the silencer a ton.
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I guess I don't have a handle on how bolters really work.
When I was in the military, I had a suppressed side arm that we called a 'hush puppy' that fired ammunition with such a low charge that it was subsonic. It fired with a definate 'pop', but you could still hear the 'slide' over the noise. Anything that would break the sound barrier is going to be louder than that.
Now, to silence a LASER I have no idea. A weapon grade laser would generate tremendous amounts of heat along the length of its beam. It is this heat that causes deformation in the atmosphere which in turn creates sound. This deformation occurs along the entire length of the beam. So how this would be silenced I have no idea.
Maybe the laser weapon in 40k isn't really a Laser at all? Maybe this is just a generic 'laymans' term for the weapon?
Uhlan wrote:Maybe the laser weapon in 40k isn't really a Laser at all? Maybe this is just a generic 'laymans' term for the weapon?
I already posted the relevant fluff earlier in this thread, but Imperial Lasweapons(gun, pistol, and cannon) are focused beams of light.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/03/19 18:24:26
You know you're really doing something when you can make strangers hate you over the Internet. - Mauleed
Just remember folks. Panic. Panic all the time. It's the only way to survive, other than just being mindful, of course-but geez, that's so friggin' boring. - Aegis Grimm
Hallowed is the All Pie The Before Times: A Place That Celebrates The World That Was
Click this link and exit out of it.
You don't have to watch the video if you dont want to. Comment if you liked the video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmYAD2ZroO0
Witzkatz wrote:Even if the bolt explodes, the silencer ensures that the shooter is harder to locate for target and friends. Often a primary use for silencers.
The Dark Heresy Core Rulebook talks about silencers for autoguns and snub pistols, so they ARE used. However, if you REALLY want to be silent, you have needle pistols and needle rifles. I guess silenced autoguns fill a very small gap between "sophisticatedly silent and deadly" and "military-grade 180dB firepower" for people how can't afford the needle stuff.
PS: Or for someone who is up against armored enemies, since needlers are crap against armor. Silenced autogun with man-stopper bullets is quite a potent weapon in the Dark Heresy ruleset.
Correct. Silencers in Dark Heresy aren't perfectly silent of course, bnut they're arguably better than the ones we have. They're pretty much standard equipment for most DH groups.
Silencers don't work on bolt pistols, however, due to the multistage nature of the weapon-- the rocket stage is damned loud. You need special ammunition for boltguns to become silenced.
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Kanluwen wrote:And it's already been mentioned. The 'Exitus' rifle used by the Vindicares uses solid slug ammunition, making it for all basic intents an 'autogun'.
That depends on if it's caseless or not. I think it's a bit more advanced than autogun technology obviously.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2011/03/20 00:29:52
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OP. You know what, you could write an entire dissertation on this subject. This question is too vague! Do you mean silencers, suppressors, or flash guards. There are so many different weapons in 40K, which ones are you interested in, bolt, ballistic,melta, plasma, shuriken,,,etc.
I can provide you with a complete explanation for it all if you want, all it takes is knowledge of the 40K universe and knowledge of how weapons work, I have both.....it will take a half page at least. Can you define your question better? Is there something specific you are looking for or do you want the entire shpeel?
No, they don't. They slow the bullet down as a side effect of it scraping against the inside of the silencer, and it slightly lowers the sound by muffling the expanding gas. There are subsonic rounds used with silencers, some of which can even leave the shot quieter than the action of the gun, but those are pretty rare simply because of the problems such low muzzle velocities cause.
It depends on what you are talking about. silencer, suppressor or flash guard. For a ballistic weapon that to be silent it must do two things.
1 Reduce ignition report.
2 Reduce speed of projectile to subsonic, as a supersonic ballistic projectile creates a sonic boom which will make lots of noise. Hence sonic boom.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2011/03/20 06:59:58
"I don't have principles, and I consider any comment otherwise to be both threatening and insulting" - Dogma
"No, sorry, synonymous does not mean same".-Dogma
"If I say "I will hug you" I am threatening you" -Dogma
Problem: most guns fitted with a suppressor still produce the sonic boom from the round breaking the sound barrier, they only muffle the explosion of the propellant. As a result, "silenced" guns are still extremely loud, just not as loud as an unsilenced one. The frequent ban on silencers stems more from the fact that a silenced shot no longer sounds like a gun shot, and general public ignorance on how big an effect silencers have.
For a shot to be subsonic it has to use specially designed ammo or reduce the pressure in the barrel, which with a sufficiently small round and a silencer can produce a shot that's quieter than the action of the gun, but is generally still over 100 decibels.
Edit: should have quoted you before you edited out... almost everything I responded to there...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/03/20 07:17:57
should have quoted you before you edited out... almost everything I responded to there...
Sorry, I thought it would be easy to answer but the more I wrote, the more I realized definitions have to be defined and weapon types are so different. I mean really you could write pages. So instead of just throwing it out there with incomplete info I thought I would ask if there was something specific. As it appears there is not even a general consensus, here at least about what a suppressor, silencer or flash guard do and how they would affect each weapon. REALLY DIFFERENTLY is the answer.
I think suppressors and silencers and flash guards are very different objects and fulfill separate rolls. But after some research America and England have different definitions (Truck/Lorry, Rubber/Eraser) of the two pieces and some believe it synonymous.
I didn't want to impose a definition yet without more research. So I asked for a better question.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/03/20 07:45:46
"I don't have principles, and I consider any comment otherwise to be both threatening and insulting" - Dogma
"No, sorry, synonymous does not mean same".-Dogma
"If I say "I will hug you" I am threatening you" -Dogma
Uhlan wrote:Maybe the laser weapon in 40k isn't really a Laser at all? Maybe this is just a generic 'laymans' term for the weapon?
I already posted the relevant fluff earlier in this thread, but Imperial Lasweapons(gun, pistol, and cannon) are focused beams of light.
@Platuan4th- Ah, sorry I missed that somehow Platuan4th. I try and make sure I read every post in the thread before I respond on most occassions so I don't repeat unneccessarily.
Still, I don't think you can silence a laser. Silencer is an archaic term in the military at least something to be heard in an old "James Bond" movie, lol. We called them supressors, most were 'tunable' as well.
As to the supressors on GW's figures they must have some function or they wouldn't be there. They are figures representative of 40k fluff and fluff trumps all logic.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/03/20 19:35:43
Lasguns can't be silenced outside of fighting in a vacuum. The crack of instantly superheated air and all that.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
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