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nosferatu1001 wrote:No, because repeated furious charge just gives you furious charge.

So once a unit is granted Hammerhand it has +1 S. You can cast the power multiple times sure, but you only get one Hammerhand effect.

Dendarien wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:No, because repeated furious charge just gives you furious charge.

So once a unit is granted Hammerhand it has +1 S. You can cast the power multiple times sure, but you only get one Hammerhand effect.

Except that's not how it works.

When you charge, you gain the furious charge USR. This USR gives you 1str/1init

Hammerhand states: if the psychic test is passed, the unit has +1 strength until the end of the assault phase

It didn't give them hammerhand, it gave them +1 strength. It may seem mundane, but that's the difference.

Dendarien wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:No, because repeated furious charge just gives you furious charge.

So once a unit is granted Hammerhand it has +1 S. You can cast the power multiple times sure, but you only get one Hammerhand effect.

Except that isnt how hammerhand works. Hammerhand increases your strength, then the next casting (which is in sequence) increases the already modified strength.

Youre attempting to say apples are oranges.

As much as I hate to say this, casting the power only increases strength. Just because it does not say it stacks means it could stack. It would be very unfair and underhanded.

Nosferatu1001 is right.

Example, Libby with 3 powers with a retinue of Paladins uses the summonning. Fails, than cast again. It passes. He cast another time and passes. So 2 units could be summoned.


(NOTE: THIS EXAMPLE 2 HAD HAPPEN, I NEED SOME HELP ON THIS)
Example 2, Libby with 3 powers with a retinue of paladins uses might of the titan on the squad my libby join with after I desperately assualt an Ironclad Dreadnought, since I have only halberds and no hammer (stupid me). It passes, so I got a D6 for armour penetration. Cast hammer hand and it passes. Now what is stop me from casting another might of the titan AGAIN. It passes. What is to stop me from claiming ANOTHER D6 for armour penetration. Nothing is stopping me claiming it. I would have +3 Strength, striking at I6 and having 2D6 for rolling to penetrate it.

So want to play that way? Fine. I am playing GK now and so are few of my opponents.

Disregarding my last 3 sentences, there is nothing saying we could not cast more of the same power such as hammerhand or might of the titan AND accumulate them in one go.

But as nosferatu1001 said is right. You cast it, it increase Strength. Cast again, it adds more. Might of the titan would also work in same method as applied by hammerhand. AND that power is even worse. Extra D6s for armour penetration.

BUT, I may be wrong. So my statements above have plenty of holes even a I read reread the codex. But that is how I see it.

While I think your wording may be off I think you are right. The wording says that you gain an additional S and an extra d6 for armor penetration. Two castings of that, plus a hammerhand from the squad and you are s7 3d6, not half bad really.

tiekwando wrote:While I think your wording may be off I think you are right. The wording says that you gain an additional S and an extra d6 for armor penetration. Two castings of that, plus a hammerhand from the squad and you are s7 3d6, not half bad really.

With halberds, who needs hammers anymore. Hammers are good within their own right as they lower initiative to 1 if enemy model is wounded and not killed.

Libby Cast Might of the titan 3 times on squad he joins with:
Hammer= Initiative 1 [Str 4(Modify +3 and double Strength=Str 10) + D6(AP roll) + D6 (1effect from Might of the titan) + D6 (2nd effect from might of the titan) + D6 (3rd effect from might of the titan)]= Results 14 - 32 (Auto penetrates AV13) / (Auto glances AV14)

Rear AV is on many vehicles are AV 10. The most highest for normal games are AV11, to my knowledge. In Apoc. God help all those titans and super heavies. Super heavy tanks may have rear AV 12 -AV 13. Even than (this is for a Grey Knight model with a nemisis hammer), After the Grey Knight model roll to hit and it succeeds, all his attacks are penetrating hits already. If against walkers, the enemy will only get glancing hits if the player owning the GK model rolls extremely bad rolls (Which is rolling 1s on 4 dices for his AP rolls).

Note, hammers strike at I1 anyway.

Libby Cast Might of the titan 3 times on squad he joins with:
Halberd = Initiative 6 [Str 4(Modify +3 = Str 7) + D6(AP roll) + D6 (1effect from Might of the titan) + D6 (2nd effect from might of the titan) + D6 (3rd effect from might of the titan)]= Results 11 - 29 (Auto penetrates AV10) / (Auto glances AV11)

Using Might of the titan is maybe less scary, but Str 7 at I6 vs Str 10 at I1? Both are bad news. GK owning player rolls badly after successfully hitting would auto penetrate and auto glance on the worse rolls. (Provided the AV is 11).

For anyone saying that taking the 10-strong paladin unit with libby and draigo auto-loses, not really. That unit can stretch to be almost 40" wide if they have 2 inches of space between their inch and a half width bases, giving them a threat range of over 50" to either side. It also, coincidentally, makes them very hard to hit with 5" templates, as if they scatter only a little forward or backward they hit only one terminator, and that one wound will be allocated to draigo, which saves on a 3+ and if he fails, just takes a wound. And you'd need to do that 4 times before he died.

Same with meltaguns. It's great if you've got several meltas in your unit [firedragons, veterans, chosen, kabalite trueborn, sternguard] but those units aren't always popular for their army [ok just sternguard and chosen aren't]. Typical squads usually only carry two meltaguns. That'll be one wound always allocated to draigo with his 3+.

The unit is hard to kill, and deploying 12" up and able to move 6" a turn, they will be across the board by the end. Any sort of attempt to charge them will end badly.

Spellbound wrote:For anyone saying that taking the 10-strong paladin unit with libby and draigo auto-loses, not really. That unit can stretch to be almost 40" wide if they have 2 inches of space between their inch and a half width bases, giving them a threat range of over 50" to either side. It also, coincidentally, makes them very hard to hit with 5" templates, as if they scatter only a little forward or backward they hit only one terminator, and that one wound will be allocated to draigo, which saves on a 3+ and if he fails, just takes a wound. And you'd need to do that 4 times before he died.

Same with meltaguns. It's great if you've got several meltas in your unit [firedragons, veterans, chosen, kabalite trueborn, sternguard] but those units aren't always popular for their army [ok just sternguard and chosen aren't]. Typical squads usually only carry two meltaguns. That'll be one wound always allocated to draigo with his 3+.

The unit is hard to kill, and deploying 12" up and able to move 6" a turn, they will be across the board by the end. Any sort of attempt to charge them will end badly.

That is powerful, but highly expensive. That runs more than 1000 points. Behold...the might of more than a thousand suns!!!!!!!

But still, imagine a dreadknight having a personal teleporter with a greatsword having a successful cast of might of the titan from a libby.

Opponent argues..." Hey, that DK has a PT. I say he is not MC. Just JI"
Me: "Oh. OK. Libby cast Might Of The Titan on it. Passes psyhic test"

Got my Extra D6 back now

Though unrelated... Good God. These orks emoticons are fun. Makes me glad of joining here.

Spellbound wrote:For anyone saying that taking the 10-strong paladin unit with libby and draigo auto-loses, not really. That unit can stretch to be almost 40" wide if they have 2 inches of space between their inch and a half width bases, giving them a threat range of over 50" to either side. It also, coincidentally, makes them very hard to hit with 5" templates, as if they scatter only a little forward or backward they hit only one terminator, and that one wound will be allocated to draigo, which saves on a 3+ and if he fails, just takes a wound. And you'd need to do that 4 times before he died.

Same with meltaguns. It's great if you've got several meltas in your unit [firedragons, veterans, chosen, kabalite trueborn, sternguard] but those units aren't always popular for their army [ok just sternguard and chosen aren't]. Typical squads usually only carry two meltaguns. That'll be one wound always allocated to draigo with his 3+.

The unit is hard to kill, and deploying 12" up and able to move 6" a turn, they will be across the board by the end. Any sort of attempt to charge them will end badly.

Any random CC specialist unit charges the outer left Shiney Terminator Nob. Guess who can't get all his awesome guys in close combat, loses combat because of this and runs off the board?
Hurray for 50" threat range with... Storm bolters! *glares in awe* Ah, and four psycannons. Any ork would be really thankfull for that formation, when else do you get to charge 12 models with your whole army at once? Also every single weapon in the opposing army is in range to shoot you. Buckets of dice will kill paladins. Do your really think this will ever work against anyone not a complete idiot? It might even fail against them.

I think the right thing to do would be to say it stacks from multiple psykers but not from the same psyker: Squad + Libby not Squad + Libby * 2. If you came up with 2 Libbys, then you could get to +3.

Homer

The right thing to do would be to arbitrarily change the rules?

I still don't see the problem with S10 greyknights. It's not like they can now do anything increadibly better they couldn't do with S6 from hammerhand and titans might.

Jidmah wrote:I still don't see the problem with S10 greyknights. It's not like they can now do anything increadibly better they couldn't do with S6 from hammerhand and titans might.

Not so.. they can enjoy the ability to have a higher chance of Perils.

I hope Draigo is fearless, or I'll be tank shocking that 1000 point unit off the board at some point in my life.

Edit: Damn, he is.

OFF TOPIC:

Has anyone noticed that RAW, purifiers cannot be troops because in the box under Crowe it says you have to have "Castellan Garran" to make Purifiers troops? I lol'd.

I'm really wondering how this thing could have gone to print. The codex has more holes than a gretchin after the attention of a Super Mega Psycho Dakka Blaster...

I think the right thing to do would be to have someone play test a codex before they slap it out to the masses. I would have thought most of this would have been tested in beta!

Right now I think I will just cast each power once and not "rules lawyer" anything. That way at the end of the day when the wall of text FAQ comes out I have been playing with the minium that can be. If GW decides that some of this crazyness, and you all know this is crazy, is true so much the better. Meanwhile I'd like to keep my friends.

So for me Inquisitor Coteaz makes Henchmen troops but I still can have NO MORE then six troops.

Hammer hand can be cast once

Might of Titans also once

Any other cheezy rule interpretation likewize.

You all must have some REALLY tolerant people you play with.

If Purifiers, Paladins, Terninator troops, psybolt ammo, Death Cult Assassins, Jakaero, Psykers, and our bad ass HQ's are not enough for you all, I just don't know what to say!

Please stop denigrating actual rules by saying they are "cheesy"

Not when the whole SW codex is sitting out there...

Unit1126PLL wrote:I hope Draigo is fearless, or I'll be tank shocking that 1000 point unit off the board at some point in my life.

Edit: Damn, he is.

OFF TOPIC:

Has anyone noticed that RAW, purifiers cannot be troops because in the box under Crowe it says you have to have "Castellan Garran" to make Purifiers troops? I lol'd.

Paladins are not, so he loses it when joining. Have fun tank shocking.

No. You know why? Because it's clearly a loophole and against the spirit of the game. There is nothing in the rules to say you can't do it, but doing it makes you a jerk, makes people hate playing against you and runs you short of people to play against.

Who are you to decide?

zerodemon wrote:No. You know why? Because it's clearly a loophole and against the spirit of the game. There is nothing in the rules to say you can't do it, but doing it makes you a jerk, makes people hate playing against you and runs you short of people to play against.

Yes. Saying the opponent cannot do so makes YOU the jerk, makes people hate playing against you and runs you short of people to play against

See how arbitrary your decision is now?

The rules allow it, for now - so you can do it.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

zerodemon wrote:No. You know why? Because it's clearly a loophole and against the spirit of the game. There is nothing in the rules to say you can't do it, but doing it makes you a jerk, makes people hate playing against you and runs you short of people to play against.

Yes. Saying the opponent cannot do so makes YOU the jerk, makes people hate playing against you and runs you short of people to play against

See how arbitrary your decision is now?

The rules allow it, for now - so you can do it.

/thread.

@Jidmah Who am I to decide? Well I was assuming that since the question was posted in the forum 40K You Make Da Call, I was entirely in my rights to weigh in, but hey, don't let my opinion burden you too heavily. I am one opinion of many. I just know that this kind of beardy-ness has very little place in my gaming circle and generally results in people saying "what a powergaming jerk." Mind you, we're generally a group motivated by playing fair and balanced games so the ability to boost a unit to S10 seems to be a little out of whack to me.

@nosferatu I didn't say I'd stop the guy from doing so. It's legal. I just wouldn't play against him again without an army filled solely with battlecannons and a couple of armoured fist squads. That may be jerky, but getting repeatedly hammered by a beardy army isn't enjoyable and that's why I play.

For me, personally, spirit of the game and having a good time comes first. I don't mind losing a game, but losing because of a technicality in the rules on the kind of thing that makes everybody, including the user of the army pause and say "...that can't be right" is the kind of thing that stops me enjoying myself.

We'll be highlighting the issue at the next group meeting and voting on whether it should be house ruled. We have two Grey Knight players who I expect will probably say yes, house rule it.

I'll also say that making a response to what I said in my last post, however hotheaded you may feel, is redundant. My point was that it was against the spirit of the game. It is against the spirit of the game. I know how arbitrary my point is. It is my opinion, it's meant to be arbitrary. Arbitration is the entire point of this area of the forum.

Mind you, that's probably arbitrary too.

zerodemon wrote:@Jidmah Who am I to decide? Well I was assuming that since the question was posted in the forum 40K You Make Da Call, I was entirely in my rights to weigh in, but hey, don't let my opinion burden you too heavily. I am one opinion of many. I just know that this kind of beardy-ness has very little place in my gaming circle and generally results in people saying "what a powergaming jerk." Mind you, we're generally a group motivated by playing fair and balanced games so the ability to boost a unit to S10 seems to be a little out of whack to me.

@nosferatu I didn't say I'd stop the guy from doing so. It's legal. I just wouldn't play against him again without an army filled solely with battlecannons and a couple of armoured fist squads. That may be jerky, but getting repeatedly hammered by a beardy army isn't enjoyable and that's why I play.

For me, personally, spirit of the game and having a good time comes first. I don't mind losing a game, but losing because of a technicality in the rules on the kind of thing that makes everybody, including the user of the army pause and say "...that can't be right" is the kind of thing that stops me enjoying myself.

We'll be highlighting the issue at the next group meeting and voting on whether it should be house ruled. We have two Grey Knight players who I expect will probably say yes, house rule it.

I'll also say that making a response to what I said in my last post, however hotheaded you may feel, is redundant. My point was that it was against the spirit of the game. It is against the spirit of the game. I know how arbitrary my point is. It is my opinion, it's meant to be arbitrary. Arbitration is the entire point of this area of the forum.

Mind you, that's probably arbitrary too.

Bolded the issue. The point is, who are you to decide what is "the spirit of the game". I guarantee you if we asked each member of your gaming group, each would give a different answer. There is no one definition for this.

Also:

-S10 shouldn't make you up and lose the game, you were nearly as likely to lose combat against these guys prior to the s10 buff, since that's their forte.
-Battlecannons are ap3, and likely wouldn't help you versus terminator armor to begin with. Bring demolishers.
-Tailoring your list to include weapons against a specific type of model is probably against your previous definition of "spirit of the game"

zerodemon wrote:@Jidmah Who am I to decide? Well I was assuming that since the question was posted in the forum 40K You Make Da Call, I was entirely in my rights to weigh in, but hey, don't let my opinion burden you too heavily. I am one opinion of many. I just know that this kind of beardy-ness has very little place in my gaming circle and generally results in people saying "what a powergaming jerk." Mind you, we're generally a group motivated by playing fair and balanced games so the ability to boost a unit to S10 seems to be a little out of whack to me.

@nosferatu I didn't say I'd stop the guy from doing so. It's legal. I just wouldn't play against him again without an army filled solely with battlecannons and a couple of armoured fist squads. That may be jerky, but getting repeatedly hammered by a beardy army isn't enjoyable and that's why I play.

For me, personally, spirit of the game and having a good time comes first. I don't mind losing a game, but losing because of a technicality in the rules on the kind of thing that makes everybody, including the user of the army pause and say "...that can't be right" is the kind of thing that stops me enjoying myself.

We'll be highlighting the issue at the next group meeting and voting on whether it should be house ruled. We have two Grey Knight players who I expect will probably say yes, house rule it.

I'll also say that making a response to what I said in my last post, however hotheaded you may feel, is redundant. My point was that it was against the spirit of the game. It is against the spirit of the game. I know how arbitrary my point is. It is my opinion, it's meant to be arbitrary. Arbitration is the entire point of this area of the forum.

Mind you, that's probably arbitrary too.

Totally agree to you.

But: Have you ever played against any S10 grey knights? How can you know if it even is beardy? The other guy might have bought two librarians just to try that stunt, and needs to spend at least 350 points for librarians without any upgrades to even do it. Plus he does not get any of the other awesome HQs grey knights can field.

To do what? Instant death T5 stuff! No, wait all force weapons, dont need that. To wound anything on 2+! No wait, everyone ignores armor already, can be S6 and strike before anyone strikes back. Well, I guess we can still kill tanks really easy now! They've got S6+2D6 armor penetration before, in addition some of them have hammers, and librarians can auto-pen vehicles instead of casting silly 3 hammerhands. Not to mention army-wide rending auto-cannons. Well, it got a little easier for them to kill that land-raider and monolith now. Yeah! Now shoot them dead.

Pumping any greyknight unit to S10 is not going to break anyone's game, nor beardy nor even a good move. Mixing different powers will always be better than spamming the hammerhand like mad. The only thing you'll do is cheating someone out of the exact single sitiation where he wants to cast hammerhand(or any other power) twice because he really needs nomething dead, and has no other useful power to cast at that moment. It's like the Ghazghkull+Snikrot thing. Everyone thinks it's beardy, a loophole, a downright broken auto-win and everyone yells at GW for being unable to write rules, but I've never heard of anyone actually losing or winning a tournament because of that move.

The spirit of the game comes under the remit of "How I Would Play The Game." As such it is completely subjective. There is no issue in expressing an opinion on the question that has been asked.

Replying to my How I Would Play The Game with a Rules As Written statement is against forum guidelines, which I'd hate to raise, but heck, them's the "Rules As Written."

@targetAWG @Jidmah
I'd agree with you that S10 shouldn't make you up and lose the whole game. To be fair, upon reflection, anybody slow enough to load one unit up with that many IC in one place is dying for a high S AP1 or 2 weapon to hit them and cause instant death on all their multi-wound, high cost characters. Also, anybody slow enough to send anything other than a vast horde or Orks or some such against said unit in CC is a bit slow too.

Tailoring my list to include weapon to defeat said unit is against the spirit of the game in our circle. That is the point of the statement really. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

I'd like to highlight that my saying manipulating the rule makes you a jerk wasn't targeted against anyone in particular. It was a theoretical answer to the question of what would stop you doing it. I wasn't calling anybody on the board a jerk. That said, what I was saying is if you did it to me, I'd probably think you were a jerk.

There are loopholes that really are worthy of such reactions, especially in the GK codex.

Multi-casting any psychic power is not one of them. Don't think of people as jerks because they play their army as written.

zerodemon wrote:The spirit of the game comes under the remit of "How I Would Play The Game." As such it is completely subjective. There is no issue in expressing an opinion on the question that has been asked.

Replying to my How I Would Play The Game with a Rules As Written statement is against forum guidelines, which I'd hate to raise, but heck, them's the "Rules As Written."

I think the discussion has been pretty polite and cordial, and don't think anyone was taking offense, they were also exercising their right to express their opinions in response to you. And also, if you want to try and invoke the above, you might want to ponder the logic of responding to a thread about the RAW of multiple hammerhand castings with a "how would i play the game" statement.

That piece of the forum guidelines is to avoid pointless nasty arguments where both sides argue till they're blue in the face without realizing the other side is arguing RAI (essentially) and they're arguing RAW (or vice versa) and that they'll never come to an agreement or conclusion. I don't think that was taking place here. Easy on the defense!

Jidmah wrote:

Unit1126PLL wrote:I hope Draigo is fearless, or I'll be tank shocking that 1000 point unit off the board at some point in my life.

Edit: Damn, he is.

OFF TOPIC:

Has anyone noticed that RAW, purifiers cannot be troops because in the box under Crowe it says you have to have "Castellan Garran" to make Purifiers troops? I lol'd.

Paladins are not, so he loses it when joining. Have fun tank shocking.

Fearless ICs confer fearless to the unit they join.

No they don't, it only works the other way around(character joining fearless unit).

"However, as long as a fearless character stays with a unit that is not fearless, he loses this special rule."(BRB pg. 75)