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On the plus side, stacking hammerhand makes Thawn kind of good?

ph34r wrote:On the plus side, stacking hammerhand makes Thawn kind of good?

Is he Mastery Level 2? If so, interesting.

Unit1126PLL wrote:I hope Draigo is fearless, or I'll be tank shocking that 1000 point unit off the board at some point in my life.

Edit: Damn, he is.

OFF TOPIC:

Has anyone noticed that RAW, purifiers cannot be troops because in the box under Crowe it says you have to have "Castellan Garran" to make Purifiers troops? I lol'd.

yes he is.


so Thawn casts Hammerhand, the unit benifits. now you either have a 2nd round of hammerhand OR activate your Forceweapons.

Grey Templar wrote:

Unit1126PLL wrote:I hope Draigo is fearless, or I'll be tank shocking that 1000 point unit off the board at some point in my life.

Edit: Damn, he is.

OFF TOPIC:

Has anyone noticed that RAW, purifiers cannot be troops because in the box under Crowe it says you have to have "Castellan Garran" to make Purifiers troops? I lol'd.

yes he is.


so Thawn casts Hammerhand, the unit benifits. now you either have a 2nd round of hammerhand OR activate your Forceweapons.

So if I'm facing Infantry I can rock S6 I6, and if I meet Nobs/Warriors/Monstrous-creatures/Independant-Characters I can just knock 'em out with S5 I6? Sounds good enough to me!

Darkvoidof40k wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Sanguinis wrote:If you can't handle it then get some Psychic defense in your army, if your playing an army that has no Psychic defense then rework your strategy so that Hammerhand is no longer an issue. It's called adapting!

Oh, it's all so obvious now, I should just change army to someone that has psychic defenses! Why didn't I think of this before?!


On a side note I agree with your main point: Hammerhead stacking is in no way overpowered.

Until you have Draigo, a Librarian and 10 Paladins rocking around at S10.

I have them striking at I10, S6 and rerolling 1s to wound, what more could you want?

that squads costs HOW many points???


925 with NO upgrades, and who wouldn't be throwing kit on these guys?

It's all moot now. I take it all back. I have no problem with somebody pumping that many points in to one unit so I can explode it anyway. Cast Hammerhand as many times as you like. Weight of fire or masses of Orks will solve the issue anyway.

I sorted it in my head and if I can get a big unit of Orks in there I'd get about 30 wounds, 5 of which would go unsaved. The Orks might take some heavy losses but I can consolidate with that idea since I'd only spend 200 points on them anyway and can crump any leftovers with my nobs powerklaw.

I've found the new GK Codex to be fairly balanced so far anyway. Draigo's fluff is over the top but in terms of game balance, even if you make them S10 every army has something fairly basic that will put an end to a squad of GK termies.

Where's the "The rules are permissive and tell you what you can do" people?

The GK codex does not give you permission to have one model cast the same psychic power on itself or its unit twice. Therefore, you cannot.

Mat Ward has one great ability! He bring all those TFGs to the forefront, thanks Mat.

Dashofpepper wrote:Where's the "The rules are permissive and tell you what you can do" people?

The GK codex does not give you permission to have one model cast the same psychic power on itself or its unit twice. Therefore, you cannot.

my Librarian is allowed to cast 2 psychic power a turn.


i am NOT restricted from using the same power twice in the codex and the main rule book ONLY forbids me from using the same PSA more then once.


therefor, the rules explicitly allow me to use the same psychic power(as long as it isn't a PSA) multiple times up to the maximum number of psychic powers i am allowed to use.

General_Chaos wrote:Mat Ward has one great ability! He bring all those TFGs to the forefront, thanks Mat.

Hey, don't get mad at Matt for exposing you.

Dashofpepper wrote:Where's the "The rules are permissive and tell you what you can do" people?

The GK codex does not give you permission to have one model cast the same psychic power on itself or its unit twice. Therefore, you cannot.

You know, this is the common notion, and one I had as well, I think it dates back to an older (3rd or 4th) edition rule set.

Core rulebook: Psykers can use one psychic power per player turn.

There is nothing in the section that says it he can't use the same power more than once. The only mention to something like this is under the psychic SHOOTING attack section, and states "(but still cannot use the same power twice in a turn)". However, this is under a different heading, and hamemrhand isn't a psychic shooting attack. This is mainly a clarification since the previous sentence notes that you can replace a shooting attack with a psychic shooting attack, and they don't want you firing the same weapon twice.

GK Codex: For each mastery level a character has, he can use one psychic power per turn.

I think everyone has this idea that you can't use the same power more than once (I did at first too), but nowhere is this mentioned or hinted at, and it's probably just a hold over of old knowledge. After using the power he doesnt lose it, it's still in his profile.

Just my .02

psst - those orks are going to be way, way thinned down. I mean those 16 psycannon shots followed by 12 stormbolter shots at S5 that re-roll 1's to wound because Draigo's a grand master are really going to tear you up.

And S10 grey knights really is broken. Right now having high strength power weapons isn't bad because you can throw a dread or something at it to counter, as has always been the case. But load them with that and it all goes down the gakker. Now there's nothing they can't kill. At I6.

Spellbound wrote:psst - those orks are going to be way, way thinned down. I mean those 16 psycannon shots followed by 12 stormbolter shots at S5 that re-roll 1's to wound because Draigo's a grand master are really going to tear you up.

And S10 grey knights really is broken. Right now having high strength power weapons isn't bad because you can throw a dread or something at it to counter, as has always been the case. But load them with that and it all goes down the gakker. Now there's nothing they can't kill. At I6.

Except that for equal points, Orks can get roughly 150 boyz plus 5 power klaw (instagibs!) nobs (thats essentially 1k for the orks, you units is more like 1100).

At best, you kill about 15-20 from shooting, then at best, 15-20 from combat. Congratulations, now you get swarmed by the remaining 100+ boys.

It's just not a good idea to put that many points into that few models that don't have some way to move fast, never has been.

targetawg wrote:

Spellbound wrote:psst - those orks are going to be way, way thinned down. I mean those 16 psycannon shots followed by 12 stormbolter shots at S5 that re-roll 1's to wound because Draigo's a grand master are really going to tear you up.

And S10 grey knights really is broken. Right now having high strength power weapons isn't bad because you can throw a dread or something at it to counter, as has always been the case. But load them with that and it all goes down the gakker. Now there's nothing they can't kill. At I6.

Except that for equal points, Orks can get roughly 150 boyz plus 5 power klaw (instagibs!) nobs (thats essentially 1k for the orks, you units is more like 1100).

At best, you kill about 15-20 from shooting, then at best, 15-20 from combat. Congratulations, now you get swarmed by the remaining 100+ boys.

It's just not a good idea to put that many points into that few models that don't have some way to move fast, never has been.

Watches in awe at the miricle of the lone surviving paladin stands firm as the orks run away due to failed morale check. Be happy it is not a squad of purifiers you are assaulting and by some miracle one unit manages to survive..

Your miricle is when you manage to wipe the whole squad out n one go.

The Orks are immune to psychology if there are more than 10 living member of the unit.

In my experience from running Deathwing a unit of 30 ork boyz isn't going to do anything at all to a 10 Man paladin unit that's properly built. Many multiple times I've had 30-man Ork Boyz units with klawz charge my Deathwing Command Squad and everytime it has come through without a scratch. Ork boyz just aren't built for fighting FNP terminators, multiple wound FNP terminators with S6+ I4+ is just going to be worse for them. Granted that's just 30 boyz. If you can get a few units in there, then you *might* stand a chance with Ork boyz. I'd say 2 units of 30 will likely kill 2-5 of the paladins depending on their luck, but they'll still lose the combat by a lot and either flee or take a lot of fearless wounds on each unit also, you're going to find it pretty hard to cram all those orks into the fight which reduces the fighting potential of the mobs. But against 10 Paladins, a Libarian and Draigo, 30 Ork Boyz will just die and only take like 1-3 terminators out if they're lucky (assuming the squad has at least 1 warding stave in it, I'd go for 2 personally). Still not saying this is a great unit/army idea, but Ork boyz aren't going to be the ones taking it down regularly.

Elios Harg wrote:In my experience from running Deathwing a unit of 30 ork boyz isn't going to do anything at all to a 10 Man paladin unit that's properly built. Many multiple times I've had 30-man Ork Boyz units with klawz charge my Deathwing Command Squad and everytime it has come through without a scratch. Ork boyz just aren't built for fighting FNP terminators, multiple wound FNP terminators with S6+ I4+ is just going to be worse for them. Granted that's just 30 boyz. If you can get a few units in there, then you *might* stand a chance with Ork boyz. I'd say 2 units of 30 will likely kill 2-5 of the paladins depending on their luck, but they'll still lose the combat by a lot and either flee or take a lot of fearless wounds on each unit also, you're going to find it pretty hard to cram all those orks into the fight which reduces the fighting potential of the mobs. But against 10 Paladins, a Libarian and Draigo, 30 Ork Boyz will just die and only take like 1-3 terminators out if they're lucky (assuming the squad has at least 1 warding stave in it, I'd go for 2 personally). Still not saying this is a great unit/army idea, but Ork boyz aren't going to be the ones taking it down regularly.

Of course 30 boys won't take down that unit. That unit is 1100 points, a standard boys unit is 215. Equal points though means 150 boyz and the 5 powerklaw nobs (who instakill those multiwound fellas)

The boyz example is more for scale, but thinking about it: 3 vendettas (405 points) keeps at range with 48 inch guns, and fires in lascannons. On average they do 2 wounds per vendetta, only 1 of those can go on draigo.

And many many more examples which take advantage of the units lack of mobility and high point-per-model cost.

zerodemon wrote:The Orks are immune to psychology if there are more than 10 living member of the unit.

Fearless, but that actually can work against them if the enemy has won by a large amount.


10 Purifiers can wipe an entire 30 Boy mob out with in one round potentially.

roughly 13 boyz die to Cleansing flame, 6 die to the Purifier's regular attacks. boyz swing and kill about 3 Purifiers. 13 fearless wounds and on average, 2 orks are still standing. a slightly under average armor save roll and the mob disintegrates completely.

Yeah, because they forgot their shootas at home, you know? 30 Ork boyz will simply outshoot purifiers. Also those 10 purifiers cost twice as much as 30 boyz.

[sarcasm]I bet a unit of 10 biker nobz+warboss will wipe out any Strike Squad, GK can't do nothing![/sarcasm]

targetawg wrote:

Elios Harg wrote:In my experience from running Deathwing a unit of 30 ork boyz isn't going to do anything at all to a 10 Man paladin unit that's properly built. Many multiple times I've had 30-man Ork Boyz units with klawz charge my Deathwing Command Squad and everytime it has come through without a scratch. Ork boyz just aren't built for fighting FNP terminators, multiple wound FNP terminators with S6+ I4+ is just going to be worse for them. Granted that's just 30 boyz. If you can get a few units in there, then you *might* stand a chance with Ork boyz. I'd say 2 units of 30 will likely kill 2-5 of the paladins depending on their luck, but they'll still lose the combat by a lot and either flee or take a lot of fearless wounds on each unit also, you're going to find it pretty hard to cram all those orks into the fight which reduces the fighting potential of the mobs. But against 10 Paladins, a Libarian and Draigo, 30 Ork Boyz will just die and only take like 1-3 terminators out if they're lucky (assuming the squad has at least 1 warding stave in it, I'd go for 2 personally). Still not saying this is a great unit/army idea, but Ork boyz aren't going to be the ones taking it down regularly.

Of course 30 boys won't take down that unit. That unit is 1100 points, a standard boys unit is 215. Equal points though means 150 boyz and the 5 powerklaw nobs (who instakill those multiwound fellas)

The boyz example is more for scale, but thinking about it: 3 vendettas (405 points) keeps at range with 48 inch guns, and fires in lascannons. On average they do 2 wounds per vendetta, only 1 of those can go on draigo.

And many many more examples which take advantage of the units lack of mobility and high point-per-model cost.

My point was more that 30 Ork boyz does nothing, or nearly nothing to FNP terminators, not just that FNP terminators will beat them, but that it's a complete one-sided slaughter which results in little to no gain for the orks, piling more ork boyz into the situation meat-grinder style will have varying results, but I still don't think it'll work out well for the Orks, there's just not enough room for them to get enough models into the combat. Of course, you are right with the vendettas. Also Broadsides which run around 250-300 points depending on upgrades are great paladin killers. Dark Lances for Dark Eldar. Bright Lances and Fusion Guns for Eldar. Lascannon and Melta for Space Marines/Guard. I'm sure every army good ways to deal with the threat of Paladins and all of them a lot cheaper than the paladin unit, but few of them are close combat, imo.

30 shoota boyz will hit 20 of their shots, wound 10 of those, 1.6 failed saves, about 0.83 wounds caused after FNP. Repeat for 120 more boyz => 4.16 wounds. Now shoot them with 4 psy cannons and 8 storm bolters, hit 10.6 psy cannon shots and 10.6 storm bolter shots, wound 16 boyz total, kill 16. Now you take 3.72 wounds, kill 16 again, wiping a unit. Take another 3.3 wounds, almost everyone is wounded now, if you'Re unlucky you may have lost one. Kill another 16 , even if a storm bolter died, 104 boyz left, shooting another 2.88 wounds of your squad, killing two. You wipe the second squad, 90 orks left to shoot you, killing another two paladins. Point is, on average for every 36 orks, one will put a wound on your squad by shooting, with dice luck working against you. The law of large numbers says you are more likely to screw up your saving throws and roll multiple than the orks are to screw up their shooting. The amount of saves you roll also has the nice side effect of killing paladins before everyone is wounded, as you can't decide who fails the one or two averages out of ten.

This is not counting any Lootaz also shooting at the paladins, kanz, koptaz, buggies or deff rollas getting lucky insta-gibs or Ghazghkhull Thrakka/Burnaz crashing the party.

Jidmah wrote:30 shoota boyz will hit 20 of their shots, wound 10 of those, 1.6 failed saves, about 0.83 wounds caused after FNP. Repeat for 120 more boyz => 4.16 wounds. Now shoot them with 4 psy cannons and 8 storm bolters, hit 10.6 psy cannon shots and 10.6 storm bolter shots, wound 16 boyz total, kill 16. Now you take 3.72 wounds, kill 16 again, wiping a unit. Take another 3.3 wounds, almost everyone is wounded now, if you'Re unlucky you may have lost one. Kill another 16 , even if a storm bolter died, 104 boyz left, shooting another 2.88 wounds of your squad, killing two. You wipe the second squad, 90 orks left to shoot you, killing another two paladins. Point is, on average for every 36 orks, one will put a wound on your squad by shooting, with dice luck working against you. The law of large numbers says you are more likely to screw up your saving throws and roll multiple than the orks are to screw up their shooting. The amount of saves you roll also has the nice side effect of killing paladins before everyone is wounded, as you can't decide who fails the one or two averages out of ten.

This is not counting any Lootaz also shooting at the paladins, kanz, koptaz, buggies or deff rollas getting lucky insta-gibs or Ghazghkhull Thrakka/Burnaz crashing the party.

In the name of the great God Almighty. One squad of Paladins could just take the entire shooting phase AND assualt phase of the enemy. Now that is the best 1000 plus points I have ever spent. The epicness and awesomeness is will be overflowing the bloody table.

Finally, Grey Knight is GW's fluff incarnate on table top. I drool....

Jidmah wrote:30 shoota boyz will hit 20 of their shots, wound 10 of those, 1.6 failed saves, about 0.83 wounds caused after FNP. Repeat for 120 more boyz => 4.16 wounds. Now shoot them with 4 psy cannons and 8 storm bolters, hit 10.6 psy cannon shots and 10.6 storm bolter shots, wound 16 boyz total, kill 16. Now you take 3.72 wounds, kill 16 again, wiping a unit. Take another 3.3 wounds, almost everyone is wounded now, if you'Re unlucky you may have lost one. Kill another 16 , even if a storm bolter died, 104 boyz left, shooting another 2.88 wounds of your squad, killing two. You wipe the second squad, 90 orks left to shoot you, killing another two paladins. Point is, on average for every 36 orks, one will put a wound on your squad by shooting, with dice luck working against you. The law of large numbers says you are more likely to screw up your saving throws and roll multiple than the orks are to screw up their shooting. The amount of saves you roll also has the nice side effect of killing paladins before everyone is wounded, as you can't decide who fails the one or two averages out of ten.

This is not counting any Lootaz also shooting at the paladins, kanz, koptaz, buggies or deff rollas getting lucky insta-gibs or Ghazghkhull Thrakka/Burnaz crashing the party.

Man, they're even more effective against boyz than I had thought. Especially considering you're giving the orks the initiative (GKs out-range their shootas, granted the orks may have big shootas which could inflict some early casualties), allowing all 120 orks to be within 18" of the Paladins which is unlikely and not considering the fact that eventually, somebody's going to charge which favors the Grey Knights a great deal as it prohibits shooting and greatly limits how many orks can get into the combat, in addition causing orks fearless wounds or morale checks. Maybe orks don't have anything that can easily deal with Paladin deathstars... They *can* deal with it, I'm sure, but no easy answer like most armies seem to have. Hmmm, seems custom mega-blastas on Killa Kans could work. You don't out-range the Knights with them though, so could get dicey with so many psycannon shots to fire at them

Orks do have better ways to counter them, but the discussion was going on about a 1000+ points unit crushing 30 boyz being something awesome.

They outrange orks by 6" which is basically nothing, plus you don't need to charge or get charged by 12 foot sloggers if you don't want to.
If you factor in a KFF or even regular cover, Orks are even going to outshoot paladins in the long run. I even forgot that their FNP guy can't shoot, so odds are even worse for them. Note that the paladin unit I was making the calculation for is 1300 points minimum, the librarian is without upgrades at all and no individualization upgrades for any paladins. 150 Boyz on the other hand are 1050 points.

Burnaz, Battlewagons, Thrakka, SAG will all ruin paladin death stars days, while any kind of rokkit has a one in six chance of pasting the wall with 80 points worth of canned super human or at least taking wounds off draigo.

Man, this codex REALLY needs an FAQ.

It costs almost no extra points (I think you have to pay for at least 2 upgrades) beyond the normal squad upgrades (Apothecary, Banner Bearer, 4 Psycannons) to get full wound allocation for a 10 man Paladin squad. I actually didn't notice that you were adding a Librarian and, I presume Draigo, into your example, in which case you included 2 too many stormbolters, but note that the Apothecary can use Holocaust if anything is within 12", Draigo has no shooting at all, psychic or otherwise. FWIW, an optimized paladin squad comes in at about 800 pts, Draigo plus Librarian with 4 powers and PM3 is 500, so it's more like the Deathstar is 1300 at most. Yes, you could push the cost higher, but anything more than 1300 is a complete waste rather than a debatable waste.

I think you're giving too much credit to Burnaz and Thrakka. In the games I've seen of Grey Knights so far, big bad ICs or MCs like Thrakka, don't live to get their attacks in against GKs unless they have a high I and if the Libarian is there, most likely it won't be high enough.

Shokk Attack Gun, I have limited experience with, so can't comment. As for the Rokkits, remember that Draigo is T5, so he gets FNP vs. the Rokkit, so the best bet would be to hit with multiple rokkits from the same unit and hope you get multiple wounds and some 1s.

Elios Harg wrote:It costs almost no extra points (I think you have to pay for at least 2 upgrades) beyond the normal squad upgrades (Apothecary, Banner Bearer, 4 Psycannons) to get full wound allocation for a 10 man Paladin squad. I actually didn't notice that you were adding a Librarian and, I presume Draigo, into your example, in which case you included 2 too many stormbolters, but note that the Apothecary can use Holocaust if anything is within 12", Draigo has no shooting at all, psychic or otherwise. FWIW, an optimized paladin squad comes in at about 800 pts, Draigo plus Librarian with 4 powers and PM3 is 500, so it's more like the Deathstar is 1300 at most. Yes, you could push the cost higher, but anything more than 1300 is a complete waste rather than a debatable waste.

I think you're giving too much credit to Burnaz and Thrakka. In the games I've seen of Grey Knights so far, big bad ICs or MCs like Thrakka, don't live to get their attacks in against GKs unless they have a high I and if the Libarian is there, most likely it won't be high enough.

Shokk Attack Gun, I have limited experience with, so can't comment. As for the Rokkits, remember that Draigo is T5, so he gets FNP vs. the Rokkit, so the best bet would be to hit with multiple rokkits from the same unit and hope you get multiple wounds and some 1s.

Draigo has his personal psychic shooting attack, "Sanctified Flame" which is a flame template.

He also has a storm bolter.

Cerebrium wrote:Man, this codex REALLY needs an FAQ.

I agree. Clarity-wise, it's easily one of the worst written ever. As to fluff and balance, well, I won't go there. heh


Automatically Appended Next Post:

targetawg wrote:

Draigo has his personal psychic shooting attack, "Sanctified Flame" which is a flame template.

He also has a storm bolter.

My mistake on both counts.

nosferatu1001 wrote:The right thing to do would be to arbitrarily change the rules?

I forgot to preface that my suggestion was for the eventual GW FAQ. Arbitrarily changing the rules is what FAQs are for, just look at the INAT one.

Homer

Draigo has a Storm Bolter and Sanctified Flame as PSA.

10 Paladins 550
+ 4 Psycannons 630
+ Banner 655
+ Warding Stave 675 (described as mandatory for catching klaws)
+ Psybolt Amunition 695 (actually I accidently made librarian and draigo profit from this, too)
+ Apothecary 770
+ Librarian 920
+ Draigo 1295
+ PM3 and four powers 1365

This is the exact unit described by previous posters, as without draigo and librarian, they can even be assaulted to some success.

As for Thrakka: He is only hit on 4s by anyone but draigo and wounded on 5+ unless hammerhand is used. Now you still need to get past his 2++ and 4W to kill him during his Waagh! (about 2.5 wounds with three castings of hammerhand) meaning he gets seven attacks off on his turn which should instant-death the librarian and at least one paladin, possibly even making you lose combat. With a little luck (about 20% of the time if there are no hammers in the unit) he gets another 5 attacks on your turn, killing another one. Even if he dies before his second round of attacks, they lost one turn of shooting and much more points than Ghazghkull costs as well as any utility the librarian brought.

Burnaz can reliably dump 3-5 wounds from inside a battlewagon onto the squad, again with high chances of dealing more and killing important models due to the high amount of saves. 1300 points means my entire army has time to shoot you, which means even if every unit only puts 2 or 3 wounds on them, they will be dead in two or three turns, possibly sooner when they get down to an assaultable level or the apothecary dies.