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Fair enough Massive_Mouse I agree wholeheartedly with you that the Grey Knight codex is very unclear and very (dare I say it) poorly written because of a certain GW employee who's initials are M.W. and rhyme with Fat Sword.

I think, like you, that some of them need clarity.

Chaos Psychic defense is hard I'll agree on that point too. You should use more Lash that way your opponent has to worry about that!

use Lash at -1 LD while psychic hoods are possably around?

Sanguinis wrote:If you can't handle it then get some Psychic defense in your army, if your playing an army that has no Psychic defense then rework your strategy so that Hammerhand is no longer an issue. It's called adapting!

Oh, it's all so obvious now, I should just change army to someone that has psychic defenses! Why didn't I think of this before?!


On a side note I agree with your main point: Hammerhead stacking is in no way overpowered.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Sanguinis wrote:If you can't handle it then get some Psychic defense in your army, if your playing an army that has no Psychic defense then rework your strategy so that Hammerhand is no longer an issue. It's called adapting!

Oh, it's all so obvious now, I should just change army to someone that has psychic defenses! Why didn't I think of this before?!


On a side note I agree with your main point: Hammerhead stacking is in no way overpowered.

Until you have Draigo, a Librarian and 10 Paladins rocking around at S10.

If an opponent told me he coud get his whatever squad to str 10 innish 6 with multiple casts of something obviously not intended to break the entire game, I would simply start packing up, and never play him again. No amount of rules lawyring in the world would convince me this is anything more than terrible editing.

This is just another example of how poorly written the Grey Knights codex is. I have absolutely no intention of playing against a GK army in a friendly game.

augustus5 wrote:This is just another example of how poorly written the Grey Knights codex is. I have absolutely no intention of playing against a GK army in a friendly game.

But you'll have no objections to playing them in a tournament setting where your opponent will pull every bull gak move he can?

I have Draigo, a Libby, and a paladin squad that trump around the field. I need definitive proof that I can get 3 castings of hammerhand to stack. It makes sense that it would, but being the " permissive rule set" that we play, there's nothing that says it can, unlike Might (I know it's a different spell, but just for example. Cheers!

Lolcanoe wrote:I have Draigo, a Libby, and a paladin squad that trump around the field. I need definitive proof that I can get 3 castings of hammerhand to stack. It makes sense that it would, but being the " permissive rule set" that we play, there's nothing that says it can, unlike Might (I know it's a different spell, but just for example. Cheers!

As I've pointed out twice, you can get S10 with that lot. Libby can cast three times, and Draigo a further two (or one less on either of those and one on the Paladin squad).

Darkvoidof40k wrote:

Lolcanoe wrote:I have Draigo, a Libby, and a paladin squad that trump around the field. I need definitive proof that I can get 3 castings of hammerhand to stack. It makes sense that it would, but being the " permissive rule set" that we play, there's nothing that says it can, unlike Might (I know it's a different spell, but just for example. Cheers!

As I've pointed out twice, you can get S10 with that lot. Libby can cast three times, and Draigo a further two (or one less on either of those and one on the Paladin squad).

Not that this pertains to the rules, and I tend to agree it stacks...but why are people worried about this unit in particular?

Just like any super uber deathstar of doom that moves 6 inches a turn...walk away. And since you probably have a transport or two..drive away.

If you know your opponent sunk over 1000 points into 12 models, expect them to be stupid good, and just ignore them and don't engage. Str 10 is only good if you actually let him get into combat.

How do I convince my gaming group that it can be done then? I've ran out of steam trying to reason with them. Str 7 is close enough that I'm wounding on 2s anyways with Draigo.

I don't know why people get so mad playing against 13 models. Ive alread had 2 people say they won't play against my Knights anymore :(

Lolcanoe wrote:How do I convince my gaming group that it can be done then? I've ran out of steam trying to reason with them. Str 7 is close enough that I'm wounding on 2s anyways with Draigo.

I don't know why people get so mad playing against 13 models. Ive alread had 2 people say they won't play against my Knights anymore :(

If they're not nerdman enough to face 13 models, they really must suck at this game.

Lolcanoe wrote:How do I convince my gaming group that it can be done then? I've ran out of steam trying to reason with them. Str 7 is close enough that I'm wounding on 2s anyways with Draigo.

I don't know why people get so mad playing against 13 models. Ive alread had 2 people say they won't play against my Knights anymore :(

Have you considered that if you're doing fine without it and upsetting people in your group then perhaps you just need to let it go until an FAQ comes out and gives a definitive answer either way?

Lolcanoe wrote:How do I convince my gaming group that it can be done then? I've ran out of steam trying to reason with them. Str 7 is close enough that I'm wounding on 2s anyways with Draigo.

Wait for the FAQ I guess. Some people just can't be reasoned with. If they can't come to grips with +1S to the profile, then they can't come to grips with it.

I don't know why people get so mad playing against 13 models. Ive alread had 2 people say they won't play against my Knights anymore :(

For some reason, people have this insane knee-jerk reaction to new codices. It's like people have to match the OTT of the fluff by having OTT reactions to everything that occurs regarding playing the game. I've only played two games with GK and people are already calling them things such as "Cheese Marines", "Yellow Knights", and so on. I'm going to just have fun with it and roll with it. I might take one of my old pewter GK, drilling holes in him, and then painting him yellow for an objective marker.

Corrode wrote:

Lolcanoe wrote:How do I convince my gaming group that it can be done then? I've ran out of steam trying to reason with them. Str 7 is close enough that I'm wounding on 2s anyways with Draigo.

I don't know why people get so mad playing against 13 models. Ive alread had 2 people say they won't play against my Knights anymore :(

Have you considered that if you're doing fine without it and upsetting people in your group then perhaps you just need to let it go until an FAQ comes out and gives a definitive answer either way?

Exactly, the best way to deal with social bullying is to give in to it. In fact, you should probably just play a different army entirely to make your friends happier.

/sarcasm

But really..

targetawg wrote:

Corrode wrote:

Lolcanoe wrote:How do I convince my gaming group that it can be done then? I've ran out of steam trying to reason with them. Str 7 is close enough that I'm wounding on 2s anyways with Draigo.

I don't know why people get so mad playing against 13 models. Ive alread had 2 people say they won't play against my Knights anymore :(

Have you considered that if you're doing fine without it and upsetting people in your group then perhaps you just need to let it go until an FAQ comes out and gives a definitive answer either way?

Exactly, the best way to deal with social bullying is to give in to it. In fact, you should probably just play a different army entirely to make your friends happier.

/sarcasm

But really..

A disagreement over a somewhat vague rules interpretation is 'social bullying' and upsetting everyone in your group is better than a compromise which will last all of about 2-3 months before an FAQ is released?

How is casting hammerhand four times overpowered? That's still worse than a Farseer's Doom many times, unless you try to kill tanks. In that case might of titan would have been better anyway.

Darkvoidof40k wrote:
Until you have Draigo, a Librarian and 10 Paladins rocking around at S10.

That army would not reasonably be able to defeat any other army.

Corrode wrote:

targetawg wrote:

Corrode wrote:

Lolcanoe wrote:How do I convince my gaming group that it can be done then? I've ran out of steam trying to reason with them. Str 7 is close enough that I'm wounding on 2s anyways with Draigo.

I don't know why people get so mad playing against 13 models. Ive alread had 2 people say they won't play against my Knights anymore :(

Have you considered that if you're doing fine without it and upsetting people in your group then perhaps you just need to let it go until an FAQ comes out and gives a definitive answer either way?

Exactly, the best way to deal with social bullying is to give in to it. In fact, you should probably just play a different army entirely to make your friends happier.

/sarcasm

But really..

A disagreement over a somewhat vague rules interpretation is 'social bullying' and upsetting everyone in your group is better than a compromise which will last all of about 2-3 months before an FAQ is released?

Because according to his post (as i read it), the people are getting mad over playing his knights in general and are refusing play them any further. The issue with casting hammerhand is a separate one, that they won't let him use to begin with.

The people in his group telling him they won't play him because of his army choice, is social bullying. They're trying to cajoole him into playing what they want him to play. And your solution wasn't a compromise, a compromise would be if both sides got something, your solution is to just give in to their interpretation and wait for an FAQ. While a solution, calling it a compromise is a bit of a misnomer.

I was assuming that people were getting tired of 'no they ARE Strength 10 HONEST!' If it's just the case that they're refusing to play against GKs altogether just because the Internet says they're a bit hard then they're bitches and not worth the effort to play in the first place.

Corrode wrote:I was assuming that people were getting tired of 'no they ARE Strength 10 HONEST!' If it's just the case that they're refusing to play against GKs altogether just because the Internet says they're a bit hard then they're bitches and not worth the effort to play in the first place.

I'll agree with you there, and since I guess we were just reading it differently, if it was intended as you read it, I'm in agreement. Offer the 4+ and move on, if they refuse to even 4+ it, just let it go and bide your time until the faq.

Mind you, to get strength 10 you have to actually successfully cast hammerhand/might of titans 6 times on a unit. That's a heck of a lot of psykers, psychic tests, etc. to be passed over and over.

DarknessEternal wrote:

Darkvoidof40k wrote:
Until you have Draigo, a Librarian and 10 Paladins rocking around at S10.

That army would not reasonably be able to defeat any other army.

Exactly. One good S10, Large Blast and you've just killed a good chunk of that "zomg unstoppable haxx!" Squad.

lucasbuffalo wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:

Darkvoidof40k wrote:
Until you have Draigo, a Librarian and 10 Paladins rocking around at S10.

That army would not reasonably be able to defeat any other army.

Exactly. One good S10, Large Blast and you've just killed a good chunk of that "zomg unstoppable haxx!" Squad.

Well the issue presented in this thread isn't that anyone is stupid enough to try and do it; it's the fact that it's possible.

Darkvoidof40k wrote:

lucasbuffalo wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:

Darkvoidof40k wrote:
Until you have Draigo, a Librarian and 10 Paladins rocking around at S10.

That army would not reasonably be able to defeat any other army.

Exactly. One good S10, Large Blast and you've just killed a good chunk of that "zomg unstoppable haxx!" Squad.

Well the issue presented in this thread isn't that anyone is stupid enough to try and do it; it's the fact that it's possible.

The issue pretended was that it was somehow "OP" to be able to stack hammerhand on such a unit. Lucasbuffalo demonstrated that such a notion isn't true.

targetawg wrote:

Darkvoidof40k wrote:

Lolcanoe wrote:I have Draigo, a Libby, and a paladin squad that trump around the field. I need definitive proof that I can get 3 castings of hammerhand to stack. It makes sense that it would, but being the " permissive rule set" that we play, there's nothing that says it can, unlike Might (I know it's a different spell, but just for example. Cheers!

As I've pointed out twice, you can get S10 with that lot. Libby can cast three times, and Draigo a further two (or one less on either of those and one on the Paladin squad).

Not that this pertains to the rules, and I tend to agree it stacks...but why are people worried about this unit in particular?

Just like any super uber deathstar of doom that moves 6 inches a turn...walk away. And since you probably have a transport or two..drive away.

If you know your opponent sunk over 1000 points into 12 models, expect them to be stupid good, and just ignore them and don't engage. Str 10 is only good if you actually let him get into combat.

Its a shame that you can't ignore them, since its all your opponent will be able to use at those points!

phantommaster wrote:

targetawg wrote:

Darkvoidof40k wrote:

Lolcanoe wrote:I have Draigo, a Libby, and a paladin squad that trump around the field. I need definitive proof that I can get 3 castings of hammerhand to stack. It makes sense that it would, but being the " permissive rule set" that we play, there's nothing that says it can, unlike Might (I know it's a different spell, but just for example. Cheers!

As I've pointed out twice, you can get S10 with that lot. Libby can cast three times, and Draigo a further two (or one less on either of those and one on the Paladin squad).

Not that this pertains to the rules, and I tend to agree it stacks...but why are people worried about this unit in particular?

Just like any super uber deathstar of doom that moves 6 inches a turn...walk away. And since you probably have a transport or two..drive away.

If you know your opponent sunk over 1000 points into 12 models, expect them to be stupid good, and just ignore them and don't engage. Str 10 is only good if you actually let him get into combat.

Its a shame that you can't ignore them, since its all your opponent will be able to use at those points!

you can ignore them as far as CC goes, just shoot the fools.

I had the one guy say he wouldn't play if I used my GK's, so I broke out the plague marines. 2 games going 7 turns on a Saturday isn't as fun as 5, 5 turn games. Hell my last game my GKs got stomped by deldar, so stacking HH didn't even matter lol

So is it then possible to have S8 I8 Death company? Yikes!

No, because repeated furious charge just gives you furious charge.

Prediction for GW FAQ on the matter:

It can stack, but only twice! So no more than +2 Strength.

Ignoring the rules? Blatantly inconsistent? Simply an idiotic ruling?

Yup, it'll be that.