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I wasn't aware that Thrakka had a 2+ invuln save.

The fact that it's taking about the same number of points for them to counter the deathstar effectively, means that it's not as terrible a unit as everyone seems to claim it is.

Elios Harg wrote:I wasn't aware that Thrakka had a 2+ invuln save.

The fact that it's taking about the same number of points for them to counter the deathstar effectively, means that it's not as terrible a unit as everyone seems to claim it is.

He has that on the turn he waaghs

It takes the same number of points, from orks, in combat, to counter it effectively. It is still a terrible unit. It can easily get shot by far less points before it does much.

In combat, a common unit taken by most marine players counters it: TH/SS terminators.

For the same price as that unit, I can buy 30 thunder hammer storm shield terminators (1200 points). Which can all make it into combat. Why would someone be running 30 Th/SS terminators? The shrike fleeting terminator list for one, but in general, it's just as likely as seeing that paladin death star.

Paladin unit has ~30 attacks, 20 hit, 18 wound (to be generous, these are rough numbers), 6 terminators die.

Paladin unit gets hit with 48 Thunder hammer strikes, 24 hit, 21 wound. Everyone takes 2 wounds essentially, all of the wounds instakill, so likely only Draigo + whoever had a warding stave is going to be around at the end.

But, this is beginning to go way OT (and I wasn't helping admittedly, sorry!) so back to the rules debate.

I think the agreement is pretty much: RAW ATM = Multiple castings are legal and they stack since it just gives additional strength, not any specific rule
RAI = Who knows.

I'd say this is still one you should check with your TO about if attending an event, even if the raw is (fairly) clear (imo) to avoid any confusion/headaches.

Ah, never knew that about Thrakka. Thanks.

I agree, we've gotten way off topic.. I also agree that technically Hammerhands (and Might of Titan) should stack with itself RAW. But yeah, check with the TO or come to agreement with whomever you're playing before the game begins on how they want to run it.

I just think that anyone that has to imagine an absolutely ideal scenario for ONE army to deal with it has missed the point. I'm glad that given a complete ideal [150 boyz all in range at the same time] there's an army that can deal with it if they pretty much ignore everything else [like, I dunno, let's be crazy and say ANOTHER paladin squad kitted the same way but without draigo]. What does chaos do against that squad? Tau? Tau might have plasma sure but we all know how prevalent all-plasma suits are. Anything that's doing 1-2 wounds at a time from meltagun-type weapons will meet with very limited success - one will bounce off draigo every turn and you're hoping that the other shot hit, and wounded, and they failed their 4+ invul [or 3+ cover, if going with the librarian].

The unit needs to be limited in what they can do. I'm even against Hammerhand stacking once, from the unit and an attached character casting it but I'd at least be somewhat pleased to see it limited to that.

This discussion is a bit silly really. What size are most games you play? Between 1,500 and 2,000? This unit as whole can only fire against one other unit every turn until it gets in to combat and will be taking most of the fire from the enemy the whole game an frankly doesn't have the staying power for the points.

An accurate demolisher shot hitting just four guys would take a heavy toll on the squad for instance. A decent SAG shot at S6 or 7 would too. Heck, a round of shooting from a standard Land Raider would make you cry. Imagine taking this in a 2,000 points game against a whole army of enemy squads all giggling as they hurl the firestorm at you as soon as you come in to view. It'd fall apart.

Just treat them the same as normal termies guys, high S, low AP weapons or a big squad of genestealers and you're laughing. Anything S8 will ignore the multiple wound factor and FNP too, as will AP1 or 2 weapons. You'll usually have some of these in a 2,000 point game. It's also highly theoretical. Most sane humans wouldn't take this unit because it costs so much and constitutes such a high risk every time you lose a model.

Spellbound wrote:I just think that anyone that has to imagine an absolutely ideal scenario for ONE army to deal with it has missed the point. I'm glad that given a complete ideal [150 boyz all in range at the same time] there's an army that can deal with it if they pretty much ignore everything else [like, I dunno, let's be crazy and say ANOTHER paladin squad kitted the same way but without draigo]. What does chaos do against that squad? Tau? Tau might have plasma sure but we all know how prevalent all-plasma suits are. Anything that's doing 1-2 wounds at a time from meltagun-type weapons will meet with very limited success - one will bounce off draigo every turn and you're hoping that the other shot hit, and wounded, and they failed their 4+ invul [or 3+ cover, if going with the librarian].

The unit needs to be limited in what they can do. I'm even against Hammerhand stacking once, from the unit and an attached character casting it but I'd at least be somewhat pleased to see it limited to that.

Everything else? Another squad of kittet paladins? Well, at those point limits, I'll just swing my stompa's wrecking ball at them, or charge them with Thrakka and 19 Warbosses out of a Battlewagon *rolls eyes*

Seriously, at 1500 points you'd have nothing but an additional striking squad, at 2k points you'd have two units of paladins (22 models) against a full FOC. The one without ICs will really get eaten up by Thrakka (they wound him on 4's instead of 2+, and might even fail Hammerhand at LD9), and losing a model to every rokkit hitting them if they are not simply tank shocked off the board. Draigo multiplies the strength of a Paladin unit, without him, they really lose value, up to being worthless.

Nobody should ever take this squad.

zerodemon wrote:Nobody should ever take this squad in a competitive army.

Fixed. Flash Gits are a blast to play, too

Spellbound wrote:I just think that anyone that has to imagine an absolutely ideal scenario for ONE army to deal with it has missed the point. I'm glad that given a complete ideal [150 boyz all in range at the same time] there's an army that can deal with it if they pretty much ignore everything else [like, I dunno, let's be crazy and say ANOTHER paladin squad kitted the same way but without draigo]. What does chaos do against that squad? Tau? Tau might have plasma sure but we all know how prevalent all-plasma suits are. Anything that's doing 1-2 wounds at a time from meltagun-type weapons will meet with very limited success - one will bounce off draigo every turn and you're hoping that the other shot hit, and wounded, and they failed their 4+ invul [or 3+ cover, if going with the librarian].

The unit needs to be limited in what they can do. I'm even against Hammerhand stacking once, from the unit and an attached character casting it but I'd at least be somewhat pleased to see it limited to that.

150 boyz is less ideal than the paladin unit, because you often will actually see the 150 boyz fielded, where I doubt anyone is actually going to field this terrible paladin unit.

Pretty much every army has a standard way to deal with this:

-Th/SS terminators
-Demolisher/Vindicator templates
-Lascannons
-Meltaguns
-Particle whip
-Obliterators (you morph relevant weapons)
-Shadow in the warp (this just keeps them honest, as thats basically an "insta perils" unless lucky, and you don't get lucky casting 5-6 powers a turn)

If you put more than 1 wound at a time with any of these guns onto the unit: the unit is about to lose a sizeable chunk. Remember, each guy averages out to over 100 points.

And secondly...you don't change the rules just because you "feel" something is overpowered, or even if it IS overpowered. The rules are the rules. We don't need to change the rules just because some people can't be bothered to learn to adapt to beating a new beast.

When we got rules for the ctan we didn't decide to "limit it's combat ability" or some such. We just shot it and didn't bother trying to beat it there.

Lets just sum this mess up.

- Until a FAQ is released stating otherwise, Grey Knights can stack Hammerhand, up to the point of S10.
- This won't generally make a difference to their combat ability 9/10 times.
- They're still just as easy to kill, S10 or S4.

and in my mind, the effort to get Str10 with this method is far more trouble then its worth.

things that die to Str10 will usually die just as easily to Str5 or 6.

Darkvoidof40k wrote:Lets just sum this mess up.

- Until a FAQ is released stating otherwise, Grey Knights can stack Hammerhand, up to the point of S10.
- This won't generally make a difference to their combat ability 9/10 times.
- They're still just as easy to kill, S10 or S4.

Uh...disagreed.

Every. Single. Action. That. You. May. Take. In. 40k. Must. Be. Given. Permission. To. Do.

40k is not "It doesn't say that I cannot, so I can" it is "I only can if it says that I can."

The only way that you may cast the same psychic power twice is when you are given permission to do so.

Dashofpepper wrote:

Darkvoidof40k wrote:Lets just sum this mess up.

- Until a FAQ is released stating otherwise, Grey Knights can stack Hammerhand, up to the point of S10.
- This won't generally make a difference to their combat ability 9/10 times.
- They're still just as easy to kill, S10 or S4.

Uh...disagreed.

Every. Single. Action. That. You. May. Take. In. 40k. Must. Be. Given. Permission. To. Do.

40k is not "It doesn't say that I cannot, so I can" it is "I only can if it says that I can."

You have permission to cast Hammerhand. Hammerhand adds 1S to the unit's profile. As all psychic powers aren't resolved simultaneously, by the time you'd cast the next hammerhand you'd have an S value of 5 (assuming MEQ) which you'd add 1 to and so on. I really don't see the issue. In this case, it really IS "It doesn't say that I cannot", as you've already obtained permission (meh, almost wrote "persimmons" there) to use Hammerhand.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Dashofpepper wrote:

Darkvoidof40k wrote:Lets just sum this mess up.

- Until a FAQ is released stating otherwise, Grey Knights can stack Hammerhand, up to the point of S10.
- This won't generally make a difference to their combat ability 9/10 times.
- They're still just as easy to kill, S10 or S4.

Uh...disagreed.

Every. Single. Action. That. You. May. Take. In. 40k. Must. Be. Given. Permission. To. Do.

40k is not "It doesn't say that I cannot, so I can" it is "I only can if it says that I can."

You have permission to cast Hammerhand. Hammerhand adds 1S to the unit's profile. As all psychic powers aren't resolved simultaneously, by the time you'd cast the next hammerhand you'd have an S value of 5 (assuming MEQ) which you'd add 1 to and so on. I really don't see the issue. In this case, it really IS "It doesn't say that I cannot", as you've already obtained permission (meh, almost wrote "persimmons" there) to use Hammerhand.

Agreed, it does say that you can. If the permissive rules had to cover every single different variation of an event in which you could use them, nothing would work.

Example: It says I can shoot a gun, I have a meltagun. But it doesnt say I can shoot it at a monolith. Therefore I can't shoot it at a monolith?

It says you can cast two psychic powers per turn.
Hammerhand is a psychic power.

I cast hammerhand -> check, I can do this.
It resolves
I cast my 2nd power of the turn, well, I'll choose hammerhand again -> You have hammerhand to cast and have a power to use, check, I can do this

Dashofpepper wrote:

Darkvoidof40k wrote:Lets just sum this mess up.

- Until a FAQ is released stating otherwise, Grey Knights can stack Hammerhand, up to the point of S10.
- This won't generally make a difference to their combat ability 9/10 times.
- They're still just as easy to kill, S10 or S4.

Uh...disagreed.

Every. Single. Action. That. You. May. Take. In. 40k. Must. Be. Given. Permission. To. Do.

40k is not "It doesn't say that I cannot, so I can" it is "I only can if it says that I can."

The only way that you may cast the same psychic power twice is when you are given permission to do so.

The rulebook does give implied permission by stating that PSAs are the only kind of psychic powers you cannot cast more than once per turn.

Dashofpepper wrote:

Darkvoidof40k wrote:Lets just sum this mess up.

- Until a FAQ is released stating otherwise, Grey Knights can stack Hammerhand, up to the point of S10.
- This won't generally make a difference to their combat ability 9/10 times.
- They're still just as easy to kill, S10 or S4.

Uh...disagreed.

Every. Single. Action. That. You. May. Take. In. 40k. Must. Be. Given. Permission. To. Do.

40k is not "It doesn't say that I cannot, so I can" it is "I only can if it says that I can."

The only way that you may cast the same psychic power twice is when you are given permission to do so.

I think I'll have to go with Dash on this one until the FAQ says otherwise. Just seems like the best way to play it so your opponent doesn't call "cheese" on you. So for me, my Gray Knights will have +1 Strength from Hammerhand.

I'd like to complain about the poorly tested codex again. You would have think in beta this would have come up!

veritechc wrote:
You would have think in beta this would have come up!

Why would it need to? It's been legal for many years before this codex came out.

Please see the many threads about it in this very forum. Typically these come out each time there's a new marine codex with some librarian that has a power that isn't a PSA.

DarknessEternal wrote:

veritechc wrote:
You would have think in beta this would have come up!

Why would it need to? It's been legal for many years before this codex came out.

Please see the many threads about it in this very forum. Typically these come out each time there's a new marine codex with some librarian that has a power that isn't a PSA.

Maybe I didn't make myself clear.

The codex writer could have just said Hammerhand can stack upon itself. Just like they did with Might of Titan.

The Strength bonus from Might of Titan is cumulative with that from Hammerhand.

I would have thought in play testing that someone tried to cast Hammerhand more than once. At that point, when the rule wasn't obvious that the author would have correct the rule. In this codex I see little playtesting or editing. It seems to me that they wrote it and pushed it out the door. The FAQ that will come out will crush us all with the Wall of Text it will have to be to clear up the errors. Personally I would have rather waited longer for a edited codex.

Well since I don't play GK. This is the only rule I could find that would disallow you to do that.
PSYKERS AND PSYCHIC POWERS

Unless specified otherwise in its special rules, a
model may use a single psychic power per player
turn.
That statement comes from the rulebook.

As I see it, there are two questions.

Q1. Can one model cast Hammerhand twice?
Yes. It says that having a mastery level of two allows you to cast two psychic powers per turn. It doesn't clarify that these powers have to be different anywhere in the book.

Q2. Will the effect stack?
I believe the intention was to not have it stack, but because it isn't prohibited the answer is once again yes. The standard in GW codices is to prohibit stacking only if it is clarified in the codex or rulebook (such as the prohibited nature of combining Pedro Kantor's +1A with the +1A you'd get from a chapter banner.) As such, without a clarification to the opposite, it's fine.

bleumike wrote:Well since I don't play GK. This is the only rule I could find that would disallow you to do that.
PSYKERS AND PSYCHIC POWERS

Unless specified otherwise in its special rules, a
model may use a single psychic power per player
turn.
That statement comes from the rulebook.

It clarifies in the GK codex that the model can use one psychic power per mastery level every turn.

bleumike wrote:Well since I don't play GK. This is the only rule I could find that would disallow you to do that.
PSYKERS AND PSYCHIC POWERS

Unless specified otherwise in its special rules, a
model may use a single psychic power per player
turn.
That statement comes from the rulebook.

The Grey Knights special rules for Master Level 2 state that the model may cast more than one psychic power per turn, which overrules the rule book. Codex always overrules rule book.

brassangel wrote:

bleumike wrote:Well since I don't play GK. This is the only rule I could find that would disallow you to do that.
PSYKERS AND PSYCHIC POWERS

Unless specified otherwise in its special rules, a
model may use a single psychic power per player
turn.
That statement comes from the rulebook.

The Grey Knights special rules for Master Level 2 state that the model may cast more than one psychic power per turn, which overrules the rule book. Codex always overrules rule book.

Yes, but irrelevant to this. Hammerhand and Might of Titan stack because they come from different sources.

If you have hammerhand cast on your unit, the unit has +1 strength. There is no justification to believe that multiple hammerhands would give multiple +1 strengths.

Its a check. Does the unit have hammerhand? If yes, it gets +1 strength. If no, it does not get +1 strength. Every precedent that I can think of in 40k disallows stacking of the same benefit. 5 Waaaugh! banners in a unit of Nobs don't give +5 WS, they give +1.

Someone explain to me the justification for trying to stack them?

Dash - but that is because they are worded differently.

Waagh banners do not give +XWS because they are worded as "a unit with a waagh banner....'

Hammerhand is different. It takes your strength and adds to it. There is no "this unit has hammerhand", it is "this unit has +1 S"

Dashofpepper wrote:
Yes, but irrelevant to this. Hammerhand and Might of Titan stack because they come from different sources.

Its a check. Does the unit have hammerhand? If yes, it gets +1 strength. If no, it does not get +1 strength. Every precedent that I can think of in 40k disallows stacking of the same benefit. 5 Waaaugh! banners in a unit of Nobs don't give +5 WS, they give +1.

When did "sources" become some kind of keyword in 40k? Nothing ever refers to anything like that.

Also, Autarchs are a precedent. Each of them provide +1 to reserve rolls.

Also, multiple Psyker Battle Squads can stack penalties to Ld with Weaken Resolve.

also, the fact the Eldar codex FORBIDS them from using the same non-PSA power implies that other Psykers(that can use more then one power) can.


For example,

would you agree that a GK Libby with Mastery level 3 could cast Quicksilver on 3 seperate units?


apply the same to hammerhand except all 3 castings are on the same unit.

really. its pretty clear the wording is bad here. nothing in the GK dex says it can stack, but it dosent forbid it either. nothing in the BRB directly confirms it can or cant. all we have is interpretation, wich by definition is RAI. (rules as interpreted) untill a FAQ clarifys it, make a house rule everyone in your group can be happy with, and make sure to check with TO's if your playing a tourney. but untill a FAQ i think people are just gonna keep going in circles on this... and it makes my head hurt.

on topic.. my 2 bits is that it can stack. our local group read through the rules, and decided that since it dose'nt restrict, and nothing currently does restrict, its fine. your group may rule different.

I think it was intended that hammerhand cant stack with itself, just because of the fact that the might of titan rule has the line written in "this ability stacks with hammerhand"

Why would they bother putting that line in if hammerhand or might of titan stacked with themselves? Why would might even be needed at all when a unit could just keep boosting itself with multiple hammerhands?

Same thing with pys communion. "this ability stacks with other uses of communion"

If abilities were able to passively stack with themselves, they wouldn't have needed to write that rule in.


As a general rule, no ability, pys or otherwise can stack with itself unless the rule states otherwise.

DarknessEternal wrote:Also, Autarchs are a precedent. Each of them provide +1 to reserve rolls.

Astropaths and Officers of the fleet, however, do not stack in multiples. So you can't really cite precedent when there is a competing precedent that rules the other way.

This is just another case of the writers thinking that their meaning (whatever it was) was obvious and didn't need further clarification. We will just have to get by until they decide to put us right.

omerakk wrote:As a general rule, no ability, pys or otherwise can stack with itself unless the rule states otherwise.

This is not a rule. There is a rule for stacking modifiers though (multiplicative before additive).

Trickstick wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:Also, Autarchs are a precedent. Each of them provide +1 to reserve rolls.

Astropaths and Officers of the fleet, however, do not stack in multiples. So you can't really cite precedent when there is a competing precedent that rules the other way.

I'm aware, but Dash said there were "no" precedents of things stacking without explicitly saying they could. There are.

I agree the GK codex is unclear on the stacking of Hammerhand and am only arguing the point that it's uncertain. Anyone who thinks they have 100% accurate interpretation of it is full of hubris.