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There was also the repeated assaulting of the Deceiver in the last one. I get doing it once because you don't know that he gets movement out of it, but if you do it several times in one game you're... well... you're not thinking about your moves very hard.

Monster Rain wrote:There was also the repeated assaulting of the Deceiver in the last one. I get doing it once because you don't know that he gets movement out of it, but if you do it several times in one game you're... well... you're not thinking about your moves very hard.

I did that in a game against Abaddon once. Wicked gambler's fallacy moment. I just kept thinking 'I'll get him this time'... but instead he just kept getting free consolidates. Of course, assaulting the deceiver is even sillier for the reason you listed.

At least against Abaddon you resolve the combat. The Deceiver just runs away.

pretre wrote:
I mean, none of his opponents did the obvious... Feed him one unit to kill with his wraith-star. That unit dies on his turn from overkill. Shoot your entire army at the WS. Profit.

All his opponents had the mental block of 'Oh, necrons are bad at hand to hand. I should assault the deathstar.'

Don't think an experienced player like Dash would fall for that tactic. With his wraiths, he'd probably just jump over your baiting unit to get to the meat of your army. Better yet, he'd assault in such a way that he doesn't wipe out that unit until it is your assault phase (by just moving them so that when he assaults, only a minimal number of models can attack).

jy2 wrote:

pretre wrote:
I mean, none of his opponents did the obvious... Feed him one unit to kill with his wraith-star. That unit dies on his turn from overkill. Shoot your entire army at the WS. Profit.

All his opponents had the mental block of 'Oh, necrons are bad at hand to hand. I should assault the deathstar.'

Don't think an experienced player like Dash would fall for that tactic. With his wraiths, he'd probably just jump over your baiting unit to get to the meat of your army. Better yet, he'd assault in such a way that he doesn't wipe out that unit until it is your assault phase (by just moving them so that when he assaults, only a minimal number of models can attack).

I disagree.

Again in the last game if the eldar player unloaded on the wraiths he could have taken them out for 4 KPs right there. Instead he thought it was a good idea to assault the Monolith for a few strength 9 attacks.

You can make a wall between your army and the monoliths with the Kans or the Wraithlords and create a Mexican standoff. The monoliths can't advance for fear of the strength 10 attacks. So Dash has to either attack with his wraiths or it will remain a standoff. As long as you separate your units enough so that he can't multi-charge or assault will take him out of his 6" res-orb range you should be fine.

3++ and two 4+ WBB saves is very tough to get by on 9 models in three separate units. Remember, since the wraiths aren't one unit you have to focus a lot fire per unit and that is a lot of potentially wasted shots if you're way over the necessary amount to drop three guys. Then they just get back up anyway if in range of the orb (which isn't hard to be).

If an entire unit dies, they don't get WBB.

Monster Rain wrote:If an entire unit dies, they don't get WBB.

They do if they're within 6" of another similar unit, they then join that unit. But yes, if an entire unit dies they won't get the second WBB from the monolith portal.

The Eldar player has to kill 3 squads of 3 Wraiths+Destroyer Lord.

The Eldar player has 2 Squads of 10 Guardians and 2X5 Dire Avengers +Wave Serpents. And anything left alive should get assaulted by the banshees and Eldrads squad.

With the use of 2 Guides on the Guardians a Doom on the unit with the Lord lets run the numbers:
10 Guardians guided shooting at a wraith squad will shoot 20 shots, 15 will hit 7.5 will wound dropping 2.5 Wraiths.
10 Guardians+ Eldrad guided against a doomed Wraiths+Lord= 4 Wounds spread around (So dead wraiths and 1 wound on the lord).
10 Dire Avengers vs. 3 wraiths= 2.22 Dead Wraiths


So he will have the lord and maybe 1-2 wraiths standing. You then assault with the Banshees and Eldrad's squad and that should finish them off. Of course you have a lot of missile launchers and shuriken catapults to do wounds too from the wave serpents, so you might not have to assault.

Instead the Eldar player was playing scared and not aggressive enough.

Blackmoor wrote:

jy2 wrote:

pretre wrote:
I mean, none of his opponents did the obvious... Feed him one unit to kill with his wraith-star. That unit dies on his turn from overkill. Shoot your entire army at the WS. Profit.

All his opponents had the mental block of 'Oh, necrons are bad at hand to hand. I should assault the deathstar.'

Don't think an experienced player like Dash would fall for that tactic. With his wraiths, he'd probably just jump over your baiting unit to get to the meat of your army. Better yet, he'd assault in such a way that he doesn't wipe out that unit until it is your assault phase (by just moving them so that when he assaults, only a minimal number of models can attack).

I disagree.

Actually, I was making a blanket statement about trying to bait his units. He won't fall for it.

Blackmoor wrote:Again in the last game if the eldar player unloaded on the wraiths he could have taken them out for 4 KPs right there. Instead he thought it was a good idea to assault the Monolith for a few strength 9 attacks.

You can make a wall between your army and the monoliths with the Kans or the Wraithlords and create a Mexican standoff. The monoliths can't advance for fear of the strength 10 attacks. So Dash has to either attack with his wraiths or it will remain a standoff. As long as you separate your units enough so that he can't multi-charge or assault will take him out of his 6" res-orb range you should be fine.

Since when did eldar have a chance to "unload" on the wraiths? For the most part, he couldn't see them. Secondly, he was probably wary of their 18" threat range.

Wraithlords are susceptible to 3 particle whips. Then there's the Deceiver as insurance.

Sure, eldars had a chance against Dash's necrons. But his opponent decided to play conservative. It's not much use to say, "he should've done this or done that". Overall, he took a gamble on a strategy to utilize his superior speed but it just didn't pan out.

jy2 wrote:
Since when did eldar have a chance to "unload" on the wraiths? For the most part, he couldn't see them. Secondly, he was probably wary of their 18" threat range.

Turn #5 Dash's Wraiths assaulted 2 wave serpents and took them down. At that point he was in front of the Eldar army and unengaged. The Eldar player shot at the Monoliths and then did some token shooting to the Wraiths, and then assaulted so Eldrad and the Warlock were going against the monolith.

This the the chance he had to "unload" on the wraiths.

I did not see that the Banshees where pinned though, but he has an extra farseer to cast guide.

Wraithlords are susceptible to 3 particle whips. Then there's the Deceiver as insurance.

Particcle whips will not hurt too badly, and the deceiver can't come out to play. He is slow and if he gets caught out in the open he will get Doomed and taken down.

Sure, eldars had a chance against Dash's necrons. But his opponent decided to play conservative. It's not much use to say, "he should've done this or done that". Overall, he took a gamble on a strategy to utilize his superior speed but it just didn't pan out.

What is the point of Batreps then? It is for others to learn and become better players through others mistakes. I am just pointing out what the eldar player could have done better to beat Dash, and that way others will learn as well.

Blackmoor wrote:
Turn #5 Dash's Wraiths assaulted 2 wave serpents and took them down. At that point he was in front of the Eldar army and unengaged. The Eldar player shot at the Monoliths and then did some token shooting to the Wraiths, and then assaulted so Eldrad and the Warlock were going against the monolith.

This the the chance he had to "unload" on the wraiths.

I did not see that the Banshees where pinned though, but he has an extra farseer to cast guide.

Honestly, by turn 5, it was too little, too late. If he had wanted to play aggressively, he should have done it from the onset. Some of the wraithlords shot at the monolith because they were planning to assault it. If they had shot at his wraiths, they wouldn't have been able to assault the mono. Also, how much damage do you think 3 bright lances and 3 missile launchers are going to do against wraiths with 3++ invuln's and 2 chances for WBB? For that matter, how much damage can eldar shooting do at that point? It appears that 1 wave serpent is far away and may not even be in range to drop off it's passengers to shoot.

No, they won't wipe out all 9 wraiths + destroyer lord. But what will happen is that if they disembark to shoot, wraiths would be in range to assault them on Dash's turn and get more KP's.

Wraithlords are susceptible to 3 particle whips. Then there's the Deceiver as insurance.

Particcle whips will not hurt too badly, and the deceiver can't come out to play. He is slow and if he gets caught out in the open he will get Doomed and taken down.

Particle whips should weaken the wraiths enough so that the Deceiver can finish them off 1 per round. Don't forget that the deceiver isn't the only threat out there. I'll bet that when the deceiver goes on the offense, so will Dash's wraiths. It's called threat overload, and it is what I would do. If I was playing, I would only expose the deceiver if I can safely get him into combat. If not, then I'm going to make you pick your poison. The deceiver or all my wraiths who are waiting to pounce on you. I'm sure Dash would consider doing the same thing.

Sure, eldars had a chance against Dash's necrons. But his opponent decided to play conservative. It's not much use to say, "he should've done this or done that". Overall, he took a gamble on a strategy to utilize his superior speed but it just didn't pan out.

What is the point of Batreps then? It is for others to learn and become better players through others mistakes. I am just pointing out what the eldar player could have done better to beat Dash, and that way others will learn as well.

You're right. I apologize. Options for tactics from a different perspective is always good to see in a batrep.

In this case though, I don't think it would've changed anything. Bryce already committed to his tactic and it was too late in the game (turn 5!) to really do anything about it.

Blackmoor showed the math.

There was a very good chance that it would have wiped out the Wraiths and the Lord.

jy2 wrote:Honestly, by turn 5, it was too little, too late. If he had wanted to play aggressively, he should have done it from the onset. Some of the wraithlords shot at the monolith because they were planning to assault it. If they had shot at his wraiths, they wouldn't have been able to assault the mono. Also, how much damage do you think 3 bright lances and 3 missile launchers are going to do against wraiths with 3++ invuln's and 2 chances for WBB? For that matter, how much damage can eldar shooting do at that point? It appears that 1 wave serpent is far away and may not even be in range to drop off it's passengers to shoot.

Blackmoor's point is that if you drop all 9 Wraiths, they don't GET their 2 chances for WBB. And wraiths are no harder to kill than MEQs for most weapons.

It also wasn't too little too late.

IIRC Dash was two KPs ahead after assaulting the Serpents.

Killing those units, even 3 out of the 4, would have won the Eldar player the game as there was no turn 6 for there to be a WBB roll.

Monster Rain wrote:Blackmoor showed the math.

There was a very good chance that it would have wiped out the Wraiths and the Lord.

I don't think so. One of the serpents was quite a distance away. Not sure what was in it, but it may have been guardians with farseer? It makes sense to split the farseer up with Eldrad. Anyways, it's not a sure thing that they would make it into shooting range.

Besides, they were probably heading towards Dash's deployment zone for the secondary.

Janthkin wrote:

jy2 wrote:Honestly, by turn 5, it was too little, too late. If he had wanted to play aggressively, he should have done it from the onset. Some of the wraithlords shot at the monolith because they were planning to assault it. If they had shot at his wraiths, they wouldn't have been able to assault the mono. Also, how much damage do you think 3 bright lances and 3 missile launchers are going to do against wraiths with 3++ invuln's and 2 chances for WBB? For that matter, how much damage can eldar shooting do at that point? It appears that 1 wave serpent is far away and may not even be in range to drop off it's passengers to shoot.

Blackmoor's point is that if you drop all 9 Wraiths, they don't GET their 2 chances for WBB. And wraiths are no harder to kill than MEQs for most weapons.

Not going to happen unless Dash rolls atrociously. Keep in mind that while it's only 9 MEQ's, it's also 3 different squads. There's bound to be wasted fire and most likely survivors given average rolls. Also, why would he allocate all the wounds on the wraiths? I would allocate any excess on the lord in order to have the squad survive.

Monster Rain wrote:It also wasn't too little too late.

IIRC Dash was two KPs ahead after assaulting the Serpents.

Killing those units, even 3 out of the 4, would have won the Eldar player the game as there was no turn 6 for there to be a WBB roll.

Again, negative. Eldar went first. Dash still had his bottom of 5. He'd still get his WBB's and could then go on to assault all the disembarked eldar units.

jy2 wrote:I don't think so. One of the serpents was quite a distance away. Not sure what was in it, but it may have been guardians with farseer? It makes sense to split the farseer up with Eldrad. Anyways, it's not a sure thing that they would make it into shooting range.

Besides, they were probably heading towards Dash's deployment zone for the secondary.

They are fast skimmers with long range weapons. This is irrelevant.

Even if it were true, rushing for the secondary while losing the primary seems a mistake in and of itself.

Monster Rain wrote:Again, negative. Eldar went first. Dash still had his bottom of 5. He'd still get his WBB's and could then go on to assault all the disembarked eldar units.

Not if they are all dead, which was very likely to happen.

Monster Rain wrote:

jy2 wrote:I don't think so. One of the serpents was quite a distance away. Not sure what was in it, but it may have been guardians with farseer? It makes sense to split the farseer up with Eldrad. Anyways, it's not a sure thing that they would make it into shooting range.

Besides, they were probably heading towards Dash's deployment zone for the secondary.

They are fast skimmers with long range weapons. This is irrelevant.

It is relevent if the skimmers want to drop off its passengers (whether they're avengers or guardians) to fire at the wraiths. In order to do so, it can only move 12".

Even if it were true, rushing for the secondary while losing the primary seems a mistake in and of itself.

Maybe true, but he was already committed to his strategy. It was what he was going to do had the game continued. Yeah, that was a mistake on his part, but still, he really didn't have enough time to change it.

Monster Rain wrote:

jy2 wrote:Again, negative. Eldar went first. Dash still had his bottom of 5. He'd still get his WBB's and could then go on to assault all the disembarked eldar units.

Not if they are all dead, which was very likely to happen.

That's just a difference of opinion. While you think they would all die, I say they won't. Here we'd just have to agree to disagree.

jy2 wrote:[That's just a difference of opinion. While you think they would all die, I say they won't. Here we'd just have to agree to disagree.

It's not an opinion. Blackmoor did the math.

With average rolling they would be dead. What are you basing your opposition to this on?

Dash just remarked that it was too bad this discussion was going on at the actual blog so he could respond to you guys....

Monster Rain wrote:

jy2 wrote:[That's just a difference of opinion. While you think they would all die, I say they won't. Here we'd just have to agree to disagree.

It's not an opinion. Blackmoor did the math.

With average rolling they would be dead. What are you basing your opposition to this on?

Because not all would be able to contribute. 1 squad is possibly too far away. The wraithlords were going after the easier to kill (at least for them) monoliths, and the banshees were more than half-dead and pinned. Also, not sure if the extra farseer could've contributed as I think he was in the far serpent, though that is pure speculation on my part.

@ Dodiez: We're just discussing the probablity of doing sufficient wounds to 9 Wraiths to make sure they didn't have the opportunity to WBB.

Again, I'd like to make it clear that I'm not bagging on Dash, just talking about the game.

Many games are won or lost by one party making a mistake, we're just dissecting the perceived mistake in this particular instance.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

jy2 wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:

jy2 wrote:[That's just a difference of opinion. While you think they would all die, I say they won't. Here we'd just have to agree to disagree.

It's not an opinion. Blackmoor did the math.

With average rolling they would be dead. What are you basing your opposition to this on?

Because not all would be able to contribute. 1 squad is possibly too far away. The wraithlords were going after the easier to kill (at least for them) monoliths, and the banshees were more than half-dead and pinned. Also, not sure if the extra farseer could've contributed as I think he was in the far serpent, though that is pure speculation on my part.

True, I wish there were some table-wide shots here and there so we could see the whole picture.

It's all speculation, buddy. From all ends. If the eldar player was out of position, then you're right. If not, then I'm right. We can probably leave it at that.

Edit:

The fact that Dash just called Blackmoor a <redacted --Janthkin> is why I don't post there. If us discussing these things on this forum is a problem, perhaps reconsider posting them here.

Yeah, if that's the way Dash wants to express himself and respond to civilized comments and criticism, I'd rather not comment on his posts. Maybe I'll just stick to Hulk's from here on out.

As long as you read all my stuff I'll allow that Mann

Your stuff is quality AND I've never seen you flame anyone or start drama. No doubts there.

Yeah, Hulk, I've been reading your blog for a while now. I back up what Mann just said 100%.

If that wave serpent had dire avengers it could go 12" move+2" disembark+18" Shooting range=32" threat range. If they were guardians -6".

And the wraithlords can continue to attack the monoliths, it is shooting of his troops+wave serpernts (on average) should be enough to kill the wraiths. The lord is iffy, but he has a good chance at taking him down. He always gets his WWB roll so even if you do kill him he might not stay dead.

You will also want to stay as far away from the monoliths as possible with those small squads, otherwise you will get flux arched to death.

Blackmoor wrote:If that wave serpent had dire avengers it could go 12" move+2" disembark+18" Shooting range=32" threat range. If they were guardians -6".

And the wraithlords can continue to attack the monoliths, it is shooting of his troops+wave serpernts (on average) should be enough to kill the wraiths. The lord is iffy, but he has a good chance at taking him down. He always gets his WWB roll so even if you do kill him he might not stay dead.

Or you could always stay within 1" of him with your banshees and/or Wraithlords. Lest we forget:

Necron FAQ wrote:Q. If a damaged Necron Lord is unable to get
back up without being within 1” of an enemy
model is he considered destroyed, or does he go
right into combat?
A. A Necron Lord who gets up within 1" of an
enemy model must be moved directly into
combat with an enemy model within 1" of him
(neither counts as charging).

Monster Rain wrote:

Or you could always stay within 1" of him with your banshees and/or Wraithlords. Lest we forget:...

I think the Monolith can pull him out of assault (I know the veil can) It it can't, you will just take him down again.

The only thing I would question with Blackmoor's plan is whether or not you could safely get all 41 Eldar in range to shoot and assault the 9 wraiths. I'd personally feel I was taking a big risk getting that many models into an 18" window. You could have the Avengers at 18, the Guardians at 12 and 10 and the Banshees a 6 waiting to assault.

If you don't wipe out the wraiths (and IIRC a couple of Blackmoors calculations involved rounding up e.g. 2.22 to 3) then you are left with the banshees playing clean up. They should be able to kill a couple of wraiths on volume of attacks. The next turn, however, with no WBB rolls requiring teleporting, I think the Eldar are Particle whip bait. Not to mention each unit potentially eating 3d6 shots (remember the 3 ignored monoliths) that (going on rusty memory here) wound on 2's and ignore aspect armor.

After reading Dash's earlier reports I was considering ways to take it out too, and came to Blackmoor's conclusion as well. Eldar must ignore the 'liths. They don't pack enough str 9 and 10 stuff to hurt it.

Eldar massive firepower is almost a thing of the past. With about half the number of heavy weapons other armies pack these days, and short range small arms on weal platforms the Elves are a little behind the curve.