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Hey Guys, I finally let Dash publish it so here is the third round from the Little Wars Tournament. Check it out:

http://hulksmash-homeplace.blogspot.com/2011/06/dashofpeppers-necrons-at-little-wars.html

Enjoy

Am I the only one who has a problem with no flying bases under the monoliths? That completely changes that game/army.

It is reasonable to place flying bases under monoliths, the tiny little plastic skimmer ones, b/c there's a spot on the lith's bottom for it. That said, many Lith boxes (if not all) don't come with one, so formally it is not required.

Given the vehicle was built and designed for 4e in every respect, where skimmer base or not it never blocked LOS at all, it is probably close to hardcore rules lawyering to actually go baseless ... BUT anyone who has played with liths knows the bases BARELY lift them above the ground anyway.

Not really; as far as I know the kit doesn't come with any bases does it?

Yes it does. It comes with a large flying base.

And the INAT (which this tournament may not have used) says that models must be mounted on their flying bases.

I know we are only talking about an inch of elevation, but that inch allows you to shoot at the guys behind. And killing 9 wraiths at range is relatively easy and destroys the backbone of the army. Absolutely game changing.


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MVBrandt wrote:That said, many Lith boxes (if not all) don't come with one, so formally it is not required.

It comes with one now. It came with one when I owned necrons four years ago. I'm not aware of it ever coming without one. But now is the only important time anyway.

I've brought three Monoliths over the age and none came with flying bases at all. They did have small lips on the bottom which made the Monolith look like it's hovering about 1/4 off the ground maybe.

@ArtfcllyFlvrd

None of the one when I worked for GW came with them, granted that was close to 8 years ago when they first released them.

Regarding the LOS issue that not having it on a stand represents unless your models are modelled kneeling the width of the Monolith and angle from the head of a model would make it very, very hard (if not impossible) to see the Wraiths anyway. And I'd make you use a laser pointer to show it since I don't think the angle works.

Either way I wouldn't have a problem with them being on the ground. Even the ones I've see mounted cored out the hole larger and it sits lower for stability.

The Eldar player was doing fine until turn #5.

His list was not built well (he is all anti-tank and has none of the heavy firepower that Eldar are known for).

On turn 5 he should have gotten his army out of his wave serpents and shoot 10 dire avengers and 20 guardians at the wraiths. With Eldrads Doom and 2 guides he should have killed a lot of them, and the banshees charge in to finish off what ever is left. He wasted way to much effort into killing the monoliths, and they were never going to go down except to the wraithlords in assault.

Hulksmash wrote:@ArtfcllyFlvrd

None of the one when I worked for GW came with them, granted that was close to 8 years ago when they first released them.

Regarding the LOS issue that not having it on a stand represents unless your models are modelled kneeling the width of the Monolith and angle from the head of a model would make it very, very hard (if not impossible) to see the Wraiths anyway. And I'd make you use a laser pointer to show it since I don't think the angle works.

Either way I wouldn't have a problem with them being on the ground. Even the ones I've see mounted cored out the hole larger and it sits lower for stability.

Like I said, the current boxes do. If there was a time that they didn't it was many, many years ago.

And I agree most things are still not going to have LOS. And it may not have come up this game because of the player's army list, but against other armies it definetly would.

But most tanks at 24"+ would be able to see under. Most infantry at about 12"+ would be able to see under.

I'm not trying to knock dash as a player or write off his wins, but putting them on the ground takes away a disadvantage that a savy player could exploit. I can now deal with things other than monoliths at range, which gives me an infinetly better chance of phasing the army out. And I don't need to get close or try and shoot inbetween monoliths putting myself in charge range of the wraiths.

My gaurd stand a pretty decent shot at blowing away 9 wraiths at extreme range under the monoliths in a single turn. That means no WBB, no second WBB, no assault threat, and only a few more warriors to munch (also under the monoliths) before I win.

It wouldn't matter to everyone and every list. It would abosolutely decide the game against me.

My personal opinion is if it isn't that game changing then just follow the rules and put them up on bases. If you are unwilling to it is basically an admission to the fact that it is game changing and it's cheating.

Is it just the rule of the internet to nitpick and jump on something as pointless as the lack of a 1" flying base? As Hulk stated, being able to see under a monolith would be virtually impossible from range anyway, so it doesn't affect the game. And for Christ's sake, he's playing CC Necrons!

Ugh, that is not a good match up for the Eldar player. Bad times there!

Skarboy wrote:Is it just the rule of the internet to nitpick and jump on something as pointless as the lack of a 1" flying base? As Hulk stated, being able to see under a monolith would be virtually impossible from range anyway, so it doesn't affect the game. And for Christ's sake, he's playing CC Necrons!

It's far from pointless.

On the base I can roll up, hop out with melta vets and plasma CCS, issue the reroll cover saves order, fire under the monoliths and wipe away all the wraiths easily. On the ground you can't. In the same manner I could put those shots into warriors and might get the army to phase out in a single round of shooting.

It takes options aways from the opponent. If it doesnt then just follow the rules and put them up anyway.

I do say Kudos for winning at all with the army. But the army is based off a quarky build people are not prepared for, and taking away (IMO illegally) one of the best ways to deal with the build, ignoring the monoliths. Raise the monolith at all at it gives people an opportunity to get at what's behind it. That's far, FAR from pointless.


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I'm not saying that's how he won, or wins with this army. But if you are going to taught your tactical genius I say that you should be playing every rule correctly without question.

issue the reroll cover saves order

Wraiths have a 3++ invuln.
They are also on flying bases, so I'm not sure how you would see them past the monolith. The edges of the monolith go down past where the flying base pole goes in so at best you have approx. 1" between the tabletop and the bottom edge of the monolith.

ArtfcllyFlvrd wrote:

Skarboy wrote:Is it just the rule of the internet to nitpick and jump on something as pointless as the lack of a 1" flying base? As Hulk stated, being able to see under a monolith would be virtually impossible from range anyway, so it doesn't affect the game. And for Christ's sake, he's playing CC Necrons!

It's far from pointless.

On the base I can roll up, hop out with melta vets and plasma CCS, issue the reroll cover saves order, fire under the monoliths and wipe away all the wraiths easily. On the ground you can't. In the same manner I could put those shots into warriors and might get the army to phase out in a single round of shooting.

It takes options aways from the opponent. If it doesnt then just follow the rules and put them up anyway.

I do say Kudos for winning at all with the army. But the army is based off a quarky build people are not prepared for, and taking away (IMO illegally) one of the best ways to deal with the build, ignoring the monoliths. Raise the monolith at all at it gives people an opportunity to get at what's behind it. That's far, FAR from pointless.


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I'm not saying that's how he won, or wins with this army. But if you are going to taught your tactical genius I say that you should be playing every rule correctly without question.

Rules state the bases they came with, the older models came with no bases included. By RAW you can't base the older Monoliths.

Dok wrote:Wraiths have a 3++ invuln.

Right. Wraiths don't need cover.

They are also on flying bases,

Nope, you're thinking destroyers. Wraiths are based on normal rounds with a tail.

ArtfcllyFlvrd wrote:Yes it does. It comes with a large flying base.

And the INAT (which this tournament may not have used) says that models must be mounted on their flying bases.

I know we are only talking about an inch of elevation, but that inch allows you to shoot at the guys behind. And killing 9 wraiths at range is relatively easy and destroys the backbone of the army. Absolutely game changing.


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MVBrandt wrote:That said, many Lith boxes (if not all) don't come with one, so formally it is not required.

It comes with one now. It came with one when I owned necrons four years ago. I'm not aware of it ever coming without one. But now is the only important time anyway.

For the record, he just bought a brand new monolith less than two weeks ago and it did NOT come with a flying base.

I REALLY doubt a guardsmen could see under a monolith to models on the other side if it were on a flying base. Remember you check LoS from the model's eyes, not his toes.

I'm picturing it in my head, and the angle just does not work.

The RAW in this situation states you put it on the base it came with. If they were purchased awhile ago and didn't come with any base, then RAW states you should not base it. The catch 22 to this what happens if you buy one off ebay and the guy didn't include a base (even though when HE bought it it came with one).

I do say Kudos for winning at all with the army. But the army is based off a quarky build people are not prepared for, and taking away (IMO illegally) one of the best ways to deal with the build, ignoring the monoliths. Raise the monolith at all at it gives people an opportunity to get at what's behind it. That's far, FAR from pointless.

*sigh*
Not again!

I remember I was told to put back my landspeeder bases or get suspended when I tried to hide my speeders behind rhinos once.
Wonder if he would complain if all the fireprisms, falcons, speeders, stormravens etc etc he meets also take of their bases and find/provide covers. I mean someone is bound to have a base missing in his box.

If half the kits come with bases and the other half dont then use RAI ffs. A skimmer is not supposed to drag itself on the ground scraping a path through rock and dirt, its supposed to hover, h o v e r.
Ergo: use bases like they are intended.

Simple question:
Is there a hole underneath the monolith to fit a base pin in or not? If so it is there for a reason *hint*.

The terrain for this event was much better than the Alamo GT, it's a pity neither army was finished. The best battle reports, to me, include photographs of well-painted armies doing battle on a table with nice terrain.

As for the actual battle report, I think this Necron army can take quite a few opponents by surprise. I was caught off guard by both the movements of the wraiths- the turboboosting to the left, and then the teleporting back to the monoliths. I didn't know Necrons could redeploy that well. The fact that the warriors then teleported through the portals to rapidfire makes it obvious to me that it is the Monolith that makes or breaks the army. I think Dash could have taken all warriors, or destroyers, heck, even pariahs, and it would still be a solid army with a three monolith backbone. That's a little unfortunate because I don't see Necrons working very well at 1000 points or less.

Pyriel- wrote:

I do say Kudos for winning at all with the army. But the army is based off a quarky build people are not prepared for, and taking away (IMO illegally) one of the best ways to deal with the build, ignoring the monoliths. Raise the monolith at all at it gives people an opportunity to get at what's behind it. That's far, FAR from pointless.

*sigh*
Not again!

I remember I was told to put back my landspeeder bases or get suspended when I tried to hide my speeders behind rhinos once.
Wonder if he would complain if all the fireprisms, falcons, speeders, stormravens etc etc he meets also take of their bases and find/provide covers. I mean someone is bound to have a base missing in his box.

If half the kits come with bases and the other half dont then use RAI ffs. A skimmer is not supposed to drag itself on the ground scraping a path through rock and dirt, its supposed to hover, h o v e r.
Ergo: use bases like they are intended.

Simple question:
Is there a hole underneath the monolith to fit a base pin in or not? If so it is there for a reason *hint*.

RAI can be whatever anybody wants it to be. RAW is pretty clear on this one.

From GW's website

"This box contains one Monolith. This multi-part, large plastic kit contains over 60 pieces, can be assembled with its portal open or sealed and has rotating gauss blasters. Model supplied with a large flying base"

If yours is missing the base you need to contact GW. Just because my vendetta is missing something it's supposed to come with doesn't mean I get to play it on the table surface getting cover from everything.

And a guardsmen is only about 1" tall. Put the monolith up 1" and it can see completely under it. I don't have a stand with me but the shorter stand might not be a entire inch, but if you step back away from the front of the monolith there should be plenty of room to shoot.

Taller things can still see through it if you attack the unit behind from angles and not the front of the monolith.

Not using a base changes how the model works. It's not using the base the kit is supplied with, and it's modeling to advantage.

I'm not saying that's why dash won, but I don't see how you can say that it isn't an potential issue.

If Monoliths are not supposed to be able to block LOS to units behind them, this whole army strategy is invalid.

I read Dash's Dark Eldar battle reports, and his oversized venom conversions caused quite a stir, too.

But if it gets more people playing Necrons, I like variety.

ArtfcllyFlvrd wrote:From GW's website

"This box contains one Monolith. This multi-part, large plastic kit contains over 60 pieces, can be assembled with its portal open or sealed and has rotating gauss blasters. Model supplied with a large flying base"

If yours is missing the base you need to contact GW. Just because my vendetta is missing something it's supposed to come with doesn't mean I get to play it on the table surface getting cover from everything.

And a guardsmen is only about 1" tall. Put the monolith up 1" and it can see completely under it. I don't have a stand with me but the shorter stand might not be a entire inch, but if you step back away from the front of the monolith there should be plenty of room to shoot.

Taller things can still see through it if you attack the unit behind from angles and not the front of the monolith.

Not using a base changes how the model works. It's not using the base the kit is supplied with, and it's modeling to advantage.

I'm not saying that's why dash won, but I don't see how you can say that it isn't an potential issue.

Can you prove that older boxes had the same packaging and parts list? Also, RAW doesn't say to use what it's supposed to come with, it says to use what it comes with.

So next tournament I go to...

"You can't prove my storm ravens came with bases... They fly on the ground and get cover from all the rest of my tanks."

"You can't prove vendettas came with bases, you can't see them behind the hill because they are on the ground."

That's a ridiculous reading of the rules, not supported by the rulebook, INAT, or the spirit of the game. I hope you never run a tournament.

As far as old kits, update your bases. I would say the same thing to someone with termies in 28mms or monstrous creatures on 40mms. The game is different than it was 8 years ago, spend 10 dollars and get the approriate bases.

Regarding the LOS issue that not having it on a stand represents unless your models are modelled kneeling the width of the Monolith and angle from the head of a model would make it very, very hard (if not impossible) to see the Wraiths anyway. And I'd make you use a laser pointer to show it since I don't think the angle works.

I agree with this. Have you actually seen a monolith on a stand? Have you checked actual LOS to a wraith? If not you are making much ado about nothing.

Also interestingly, a wraith is mostly a tail and what does the LOS/shooting rules say about tails?

I've purchased 2 monoliths within the last year... no bases for either.

Can anyone with a flying stand handy tell us how tall the shorter version of the stand is?

If it's more than .5 and inch (I could be wrong but I think it's close to 1 inch) LOS can easily be taken under it.

And it unquestionably makes a difference if the monolith is elevated but still sitting on terrain to block stuff behind.

Monoliths JUST started coming with bases recently because they are being updated in preparation for the new codex. You do realize this, right? NONE of the monoliths produced since they were originally released have ever come with a base. Ever. Until they get a new codex, it is perfectly legal for them to be modeled without one, since that's the way it's been for how many years now?

And have you ever actually checked the los under a monolith that was mounted on a legal flying base? Even models that are crouching can't see under it unless they are 1" away from it and angled just right.

If you want to complain, complain about the horrible lists he is facing. Trying to say he's cheating by using his models the way they have always been is just ridiculous.

In 4th ed (and 3rd I think) skimmers automatically did not block LOS, so a flying base was not needed. Now that skimmers are supposed to be on flying bases, the base IS needed.

I don't know when they were added, but they were so I say they should be used. I think the fact that they were added is a clear sign that the intent is for them not to block LOS.

I've said it may be hard to draw LOS under it. But I garuantee that there are instances where it can be done, and to take those away can be game impacting.

I'm not complaining about Dash, or that he won. Good for him. I probably couldn't win with that army. I'm not even saying all this influenced any of his games. I'm saying that if an opponent set those down across from me I would complain to the TO. If someone complained in one of my tournaments I would make them play as if they were elevated an inch.

Feel free to disagree, I'm not going to change my mind.

If it doesnt matter then just put it up to shut people up. If it does matter then it needs to up. Either way just put it up.

ArtfcllyFlvrd wrote:So next tournament I go to...

"You can't prove my storm ravens came with bases... They fly on the ground and get cover from all the rest of my tanks."

"You can't prove vendettas came with bases, you can't see them behind the hill because they are on the ground."

That's a ridiculous reading of the rules, not supported by the rulebook, INAT, or the spirit of the game. I hope you never run a tournament.

As far as old kits, update your bases. I would say the same thing to someone with termies in 28mms or monstrous creatures on 40mms. The game is different than it was 8 years ago, spend 10 dollars and get the approriate bases.

It depends on the TO honestly, not to mention that a 1" base is different than a flying base. I would also seriously doubt that GW would ship Vends/Valks w/o bases.


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ArtfcllyFlvrd wrote:In 4th ed (and 3rd I think) skimmers automatically did not block LOS, so a flying base was not needed. Now that skimmers are supposed to be on flying bases, the base IS needed.

I don't know when they were added, but they were so I say they should be used. I think the fact that they were added is a clear sign that the intent is for them not to block LOS.

I've said it may be hard to draw LOS under it. But I garuantee that there are instances where it can be done, and to take those away can be game impacting.

I'm not complaining about Dash, or that he won. Good for him. I probably couldn't win with that army. I'm not even saying all this influenced any of his games. I'm saying that if an opponent set those down across from me I would complain to the TO. If someone complained in one of my tournaments I would make them play as if they were elevated an inch.

Feel free to disagree, I'm not going to change my mind.

If it doesnt matter then just put it up to shut people up. If it does matter then it needs to up. Either way just put it up.

How many people aside from you do you really think give a flying rat about a Monolith being on a flying base that would rarely if ever effect the outcome of anything? I'd be willing to doubt not many given the number of Necron reports where no bases can be found.