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Kyrolon wrote:The only thing I would question with Blackmoor's plan is whether or not you could safely get all 41 Eldar in range to shoot and assault the 9 wraiths. I'd personally feel I was taking a big risk getting that many models into an 18" window. You could have the Avengers at 18, the Guardians at 12 and 10 and the Banshees a 6 waiting to assault.

If you don't wipe out the wraiths (and IIRC a couple of Blackmoors calculations involved rounding up e.g. 2.22 to 3) then you are left with the banshees playing clean up. They should be able to kill a couple of wraiths on volume of attacks. The next turn, however, with no WBB rolls requiring teleporting, I think the Eldar are Particle whip bait. Not to mention each unit potentially eating 3d6 shots (remember the 3 ignored monoliths) that (going on rusty memory here) wound on 2's and ignore aspect armor.

After reading Dash's earlier reports I was considering ways to take it out too, and came to Blackmoor's conclusion as well. Eldar must ignore the 'liths. They don't pack enough str 9 and 10 stuff to hurt it.

Eldar massive firepower is almost a thing of the past. With about half the number of heavy weapons other armies pack these days, and short range small arms on weal platforms the Elves are a little behind the curve.

Here is the problem and you need to solve it: How do you get KPs out of Dash's army?

Monoliths can be taken out by the Wraithlords, but if they get close they will be counter attacked by the Deceiver. You can Fortune the Banshee's Wave Serpent and fly strait at the Warriors, but you will never be able to get into assault with them. If you fly up to them they will just portal through the Monoliths and be out of assault range. So what can you do? The only hope is to bait Dash into assaulting with his wraiths. Those are the only kill points you have a chance at getting.




I did not round up. That is why you may need to assault to take out a straggler or 2.

There is also the Wave Serpents shooting. Although Missile Launchers are a bad weapon for the task at hand, if they shoot frag missiles into the bunched-up/Doomed Wraiths before the small arms fire you should drop a few (they also get to shoot TL Shuriken Catapults within 12" to add some more wounds).

Now in turn 5 the banshees are pinned so they are out of it, but in my first calculations I did not see that he had an extra farseer in the mix. So the Farseer can guide the guardian squad, and Eldrad can guide one guardian squad+Doom 2 wraith squads.

With the use of 2 Guides on the Guardians and 2 Dooms on a unit and the unit with the Lord lets run the numbers:
10 Guardians guided shooting at a wraith squad will shoot 20 shots, 15 will hit 7.5 will wound dropping 2.5 Wraiths.
10 Guardians+ Eldrad guided against a doomed Wraiths+Lord= 4 Wounds spread around (So dead wraiths and 1 wound on the lord).
10 Dire Avengers vs. 3 Doomed wraiths= 3.33 Dead Wraiths

So if everything worked out average, he would have .5 wraiths (so a 50% change of killing it) and a lord with 2 wounds left. The wave serpents shooting either should have chewed them up a little if they shot before hand, or they can pick off the left overs. I would not have shot the wave serpents first myself because you can't do this math on the fly, so they really need to kill that last wraith if he is still there. If he isn't then you can shoot missiles into the lord which will hurt him.

Assaulting the lord: Eldrad can do one wound and the Guardians can do 1 wound. You really want to kill him before the guardians swing because he attacks at the same time as them and ignores Inv saves so he might hurt Eldrad badly.

Let me give a note here: I am a foot Eldar player and so I am very use to doing this with Guardians and Dire Avengers. Eldrad and the combinations of his powers comes as second nature to me. The player was a Mech Eldar player and has a totally different frame of mind, and references. So it is very unlikely that he would have even thought about pulling this off.

Good points Blackmoor. It still leaves me with the concern that I'd get plastered with Large blasts the following turn. Doesn't getting all those units into firing range bunch them up a bit?

I've played all varieties of Eldar over the years (about 18) and have had very little luck with anything outside a transport since 4th edition. The volume of cheap transports mounting heavy weapons has become daunting to me. (not that this applies here though).

Kyrolon wrote:Good points Blackmoor. It still leaves me with the concern that I'd get plastered with Large blasts the following turn. Doesn't getting all those units into firing range bunch them up a bit?

There is no question that it will not be pretty in the next round before the survivors can jump in the serpents. You have long odds, but at this point of the game you are behind by 2 kill points so you have to make something happen, and nothing else in Dash's Army was going to die.

I think that the Eldar players best bet in the beginning of the game was to go for a 0-0 tie, and if Dash made a mistake try to take advantage of it, but it was just a bad match-up.

Blackmoor wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:

Or you could always stay within 1" of him with your banshees and/or Wraithlords. Lest we forget:...

I think the Monolith can pull him out of assault (I know the veil can) It it can't, you will just take him down again.

The Monolith Portal can remove him, but at the cost of firing a Particle Whip.

I would just like to say, last night I played a planetstrike game against a buddy of mine, we did a 3 on 1 battle where the 3 attackers took 1500 points each and the defender got 4500 points. I took 9 wraiths and a d.lord and in 3 turns (which is all we got to unfortunately) of the game with the wraiths being in CC or getting shot by land raiders, I didn't lose a single one. I had NO monoliths in this either. They took on three 10 man black templar squads all with power weapons and the like but unfortunately I wasn't rolling terribly great so there was still 1 man left in each squad before we quit. They took out a rhino on turn 1 without the lords help. And they had just started working on the command squad.

So...to all the people saying that massed fire would put down 9 wraiths. I disagree, especially since my last squad didn't get on the board til turn 2 so I only 6 wraiths on at first.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Blackmoor wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:

Or you could always stay within 1" of him with your banshees and/or Wraithlords. Lest we forget:...

I think the Monolith can pull him out of assault (I know the veil can) It it can't, you will just take him down again.

What, just the necron lord? No, the monolith can not teleport just the lord. He "must" be attached to a squad that gets teleported.

Wow, good catch Kevin949. I just re-read the rules for the Power Matrix and you're totally right.

I never realized that before.

I can't take the credit for that, I read about it on here a while ago. Made the same mistake myself when I first started playing (just a couple years ago).

Another thing to note, about the veil of darkness, you can't take multiple lords attached to one squad in the teleport move. That's how I read it at least.

Dakka Dakka standard procedure # 234.6B Revision 6

1. Read a thread about DoP in a tournament.

2. Find any, tiny, little, itty bitty way, to say he's cheating.

3. Post for 10 pages about it.

Really fellas... lets get on. If the TO let it go, the TO let it happen. It's his tournament. Period. It's legal, as a direct result.

Congrats DoP.

Cottonjaw wrote:Dakka Dakka standard procedure # 234.6B Revision 6

1. Read a thread about DoP in a tournament.

2. Find any, tiny, little, itty bitty way, to say he's cheating.

3. Post for 10 pages about it.

Really fellas... lets get on. If the TO let it go, the TO let it happen. It's his tournament. Period. It's legal, as a direct result.

Congrats DoP.

I think that most people were on Dash's side in this rules argument (monoliths not being on a flying stand).

I don't even know what you're talking about, Cottonjaw.

As blackmoor pointed out, the posters in this thread have overwhelmingly sided with Dash on the subject of flying bases.

You're right. It just seems like everytime theres a DOP tourney thread, there is at least 1 accusation of flagrant, world ending cheating.

Yeah, and then the people reading the thread (as happened in this case) tell the person who had the rules wrong where they erred.

I don't see what the problem is.

It would be easier to just quell any argument by just getting a flight stand, drilling out the bottom and put in the base using the smaller flight stick. Either that or just glue a flying base on the bottom of the monolith. This is a classic case of models badly interacting with the rules.

thehod wrote:It would be easier to just quell any argument by just getting a flight stand, drilling out the bottom and put in the base using the smaller flight stick. Either that or just glue a flying base on the bottom of the monolith. This is a classic case of models badly interacting with the rules.

I say we call up GW and see if they'll package it with one of the new skimmer stands that the stormraven and valkyries get. Then we can have some really fun arguments!

And when the monolith falls off the stand...epic destruction.

Mannahnin wrote:Yeah, if that's the way Dash wants to express himself and respond to civilized comments and criticism, I'd rather not comment on his posts. Maybe I'll just stick to Hulk's from here on out.

I found myself going to Hulk's blog for the first time with this business in a strange hope that maybe in a different venue things would be better and more civilized (as advertised). After reading the silliness in the comments of the Necron reports, I see that is not the case.

Hulksmash, you've always been very respectful and come across as a great and knowledgable guy on the forums and your blog. I am not sure why you're saddling your blog with the drama. How hard is it for someone to get their own blogspot account so that you can leave yours just to yourself?

@Petre

I offered for a variety of reasons to allow him to write on my blog. One of them was to draw more people to my blog. Which has worked relatively well. My articles aren't going to change in approach, content, or style. If you want to avoid his posts that's absolutely fine. I do that with some of the multi-author blogs out there. I'd hope you wouldn't stop reading my articles just because Dash also posts there but that's entirely up to you. Hope to see you around.

I imagine I will still be checking out your posts. I've liked your 'anti-JOTWW' BRs.

Just have to figure out what the blogspot url is to filter one blogger on a site.

Sigh, I think of a lot of Dash's opinions and battle reports. But man, he's either got a hot and aggressive temper, or a natural gift for being abrasive, or just a natural crude turn of phrase. Or something.

I am curious as to how Blackmoor thinks he would get the contents of every transport with LOS to the Wraiths all on the same turn without some terrible mistake or the Necron player's part or some really interesting assault luck involving Wraiths against a Wraithlord. To me, his scenario is nigh impossible to pull off. It's just too bad Dash had to phrase it like that.

All of the above.

Also most of his opponents don't seem to be too experienced, or at least too experienced fighting necrons..

As to the other, it is nigh impossible. The nigh impossible tends to crop up 9 times out of ten, against me..

hey dash, i like your wraiths. flower power!

Slightly OT, anyone know what model is DoP is using for the Deceiver? I am assuming it is fits with the the flower-power theme of the Wraiths, but with the angle of the photos I can't figure out what it is.

It's a bunch of vines with pumpkins growing in them and holding an axe. No clue what that is for.

whoadirty wrote:Slightly OT, anyone know what model is DoP is using for the Deceiver? I am assuming it is fits with the the flower-power theme of the Wraiths, but with the angle of the photos I can't figure out what it is.

It's a Malifaux mini, iirc.

It's not a regulation hieght Deceiver

It's not a regulation ANYTHING Deceiver, since it's not a Deciever It's a Pumpkin

That said, this IS the Deceiver we're talking about...

ArtfcllyFlvrd wrote:In 4th ed (and 3rd I think) skimmers automatically did not block LOS, so a flying base was not needed. Now that skimmers are supposed to be on flying bases, the base IS needed.

I don't know when they were added, but they were so I say they should be used. I think the fact that they were added is a clear sign that the intent is for them not to block LOS.

I've said it may be hard to draw LOS under it. But I garuantee that there are instances where it can be done, and to take those away can be game impacting.

I'm not complaining about Dash, or that he won. Good for him. I probably couldn't win with that army. I'm not even saying all this influenced any of his games. I'm saying that if an opponent set those down across from me I would complain to the TO. If someone complained in one of my tournaments I would make them play as if they were elevated an inch.

Feel free to disagree, I'm not going to change my mind.

If it doesnt matter then just put it up to shut people up. If it does matter then it needs to up. Either way just put it up.

My only problem with any arguement that the Monolith needs to be on a flying base is in the fact that the Monolith doesn't have a slot FOR said flying base. There is a slot for a standard stick base (such as destroyers use), but that base will do nothing for the LOS. All it does is move the gravity point to the middle so the model will be able to sit on uneven terrain better in some situations (and rare at that).

IF the lith had a cross-slot for a large flyer base, then I could accept it needing one, but it does not, and GW has never required us to custom mod our models JUST to fit a base to it (by default, though people do this of their own accord). I know we have to mod for certain characters and equipment, but a base is a much different story.

Kevin949 wrote:It's a bunch of vines with pumpkins growing in them and holding an axe. No clue what that is for.

Blackmoor wrote:

whoadirty wrote:Slightly OT, anyone know what model is DoP is using for the Deceiver? I am assuming it is fits with the the flower-power theme of the Wraiths, but with the angle of the photos I can't figure out what it is.

Glad for that second picture. I kept looking at zoomed in pics during the battlerep and kept thinking "how the hell is that allowed? That thing is as tall as a grot" Ok now I can tell its closer then I thought. First time I got around to reading a battle rep of his wraith wing. I can see how that would be such a bitch to play against. Hes seriously got his army covered no matter how you go at it. His wraiths are hard as nails, and harder to keep down, his Lord will cause serious damage to pretty much everything, so if you ignore those and go for his liths, well theres a friggin stargod there to kick your teeth in. I think with my Orks, Id just go all out as much as possible on the wraiths/lord first and try to KO as much as possible in one assault. Im sure that would be hard to do but really how else would you play against that?

With orks?

Lootas to gun down the wraiths and Ctan (and anything else for that matter...)

Deffrollas to plow under the Liths, preferabl with a KFF aboard to ward off those nasty Particle Whips

A Deffrolla battlewagon is cheaper than a lith, and a good deal faster

Many Kanz with a KFF mek nearby (wraiths will have a hard time punching through them, and they are about the same cost ) They are dead if the Deciever engages them, but he has to get close for that..


You can also greentide the wraiths. Bury them in bodies, beat them in combat if possible to sweep them. If he pulls them out of CC with the liths he isn't bombing your battlewagons

Ghazkull will put the whipsmack down on a Monolith, no questions asked.

Any Warboss will, really.