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How bout this fellas? Grey Knights are incorruptible, it cannot happen, and will not happen, as per the codex... when GW finally gets around to publishing a story where a Grey Knight clearly and undeniably does fall, then its possible.

My philosophy on 'fluff breaking,' is not to do it, until the people who originated the fluff take the lead in doing it themselves. Remember, its not your fluff, its GW's fluff, they are kind enough to allow us to play with it, but just because you can play with it doesn't mean you can/should break it. Honestly I don't understand what the attraction is for some people to do that kind of stuff. Its not just chaos grey knights, things like femmarines, chaos necrons, chaos nids, etc. First, does everything need to have a chaos version? Thats unoriginal, and kinda boring IMO. But more importantly, why do some people insist on fluffing up their forces in a way that defies conventional fluff? For the sake of being different? There are more interesting ways to make a different fluff that doesn't require you to do something that is in complete disagreement with what has already been established.

Imperial Demons, IMperial Chaos Space marines, Imperial Nids, Imperial Necrons, Imperial Eldar, Imperial Orks, HAHA, i have just won the galaxy over for the Imperium, your welcome GW...we can all stop playing 40k, we now know the ending, lol

dajobe wrote:Imperial Demons, IMperial Chaos Space marines, Imperial Nids, Imperial Necrons, Imperial Eldar, Imperial Orks, HAHA, i have just won the galaxy over for the Imperium, your welcome GW...we can all stop playing 40k, we now know the ending, lol

Didn't they do a thing with imperial nids.

that wouldnt make much sense, but...it is GW so maybe?

Is it not Grey knights?

iproxtaco wrote:If they can't be corrupted, then a certain heretical moron has made it extremely hard to discern an answer. They can't be corrupted, and then then Crowe comes along, the least corruptible of them all. Wait, if they can't be corrupted at all, why is he at a different level of incorruptibility?

This is entirely correct and yet noone has attempted to discuss this. Could it be that the Grey Knight fluff has inconsistencies that allow the corruption of Grey Knights?

dajobe wrote:
i want kharne, and abaddon in my SM army, they are SM technically right? whats to keep them from going back to the imperium, theres nothing thats guarenteed they wont!

Kharn is a mindless animal at this point in time. Bringing him back into the Imperium would be next to if not down right impossible. Abaddon has had ten thousand years of hating the Imperium and trying to ruin it to persuade him not to follow the Emperor's banner. That said, I could maybe see Abaddon working with the Imperium if a great enough threat surfaced. Note that these are two characters with their own established fluff. I don't think anyone is saying that Crowe could be corrupted.

Omegus wrote:And one of the first lines in the Grey Knights codex describes them as "utterly incorruptible". I'd say that's pretty solid. The whole "nothing is impossible" crowd is grasping at straws.

How about refuting arguments other than "nothing is impossible"?

DarknessEternal wrote:It also says they all fear being the first to do so. Not much reason to fear the impossible.

Good point. Too bad noone will reply to it.

dakkawolf wrote:Ok, ive read over this thread, and my answer to the question is that 'No, grey knights cannot turn to chaos, because of two reasons: A. They are warded, indoctrined and otherwise made impervious to chaos's corrupting influence B. 'IF' it were made possible (by some feared beast of destruction whom we fear due to GW not firing him the moment SM 5Th edition was released, and now the dreadknight...) then as previously mentioned the wards tattoo'd on a grey knights skin and marked into his bones would burn him to ashes'

A) They can't have varying levels of imperviousness.
B) Remove the tattoo'd skin and grind off the engraved markings.

chaos0xomega wrote:How bout this fellas? Grey Knights are incorruptible, it cannot happen, and will not happen, as per the codex... when GW finally gets around to publishing a story where a Grey Knight clearly and undeniably does fall, then its possible.

My philosophy on 'fluff breaking,' is not to do it, until the people who originated the fluff take the lead in doing it themselves. Remember, its not your fluff, its GW's fluff, they are kind enough to allow us to play with it, but just because you can play with it doesn't mean you can/should break it. Honestly I don't understand what the attraction is for some people to do that kind of stuff. Its not just chaos grey knights, things like femmarines, chaos necrons, chaos nids, etc. First, does everything need to have a chaos version? Thats unoriginal, and kinda boring IMO. But more importantly, why do some people insist on fluffing up their forces in a way that defies conventional fluff? For the sake of being different? There are more interesting ways to make a different fluff that doesn't require you to do something that is in complete disagreement with what has already been established.

Per the codex, some space marines are more incorruptable than others. That means that some are less incorruptable, meaning that they are not totally incorruptable.

Why do it? Chaos Grey Knights could look sick. Chaos Grey Knights are the ultimate expression of the power of chaos. Chaos Grey Knights, in the fluff, would be the ultimate terror weapon. Chaos Grey Knights would be relatively unique. I doubt many people would buy, convert, and paint an army just to break the fluff.

dajobe wrote:Imperial Demons, IMperial Chaos Space marines, Imperial Nids, Imperial Necrons, Imperial Eldar, Imperial Orks, HAHA, i have just won the galaxy over for the Imperium, your welcome GW...we can all stop playing 40k, we now know the ending, lol

Imperial Daemons would be difficult for several reasons: daemons are bound to their god's will, daemons are bound to the warp, and the entire Imperium rejects them. That said, I could see a sufficiently powerful psyker/inquisitor enslaving daemons to use them against xenos/chaos. Voila, Imperial Daemons.

Imperial Chaos Space Marines is an oxymoron, seeing as Chaos Space Marines reject the Imperium by definition. You could mean loyalists that use daemonic artifacts (like the Reflictors) or traitors turning back to the worship of the Emperor. Neither of those two scenarios are impossible and both could make for engaging armies.

Imperial Nids? Since the larger 'nids are linked to the hive mind, such a concept would be limited to individual swarms of gaunts and other smaller creatures. It would be interesting to see an army of the Ordo Xenos with swarms of Gaunts being corralled by adepts in power armour (Warriors), adepts in sentinels (Zoanthropes/Lictors/Venomthropes), Deathwatch in Dreadknight-like machines (Trygons/Carnifex), and inquisitors in Throne of Judgement-esque contraptions (Hive Tyrants). Doesn't someone have a Tyranid Mechanicus army?

Imperial Necrons are rather easy. Just have a Lord decide to change sides. Maybe have him join the Blood Angels; those two seem to get along already.

Imperial Eldar are the same. They will already aid the Imperium to aid themselves. You would only need to think of a long term reason for the two to work together.

Imperial Orks? Why not? Isn't one of the Ork klans made of mercenaries anyways? Just have a heretical governor hire them. Alternatively, have a warboss begin to worship a primarch/chapter master/the Emperor as an avatar of Gork... I really like that last idea. You could write stories with seemingly doomed planets rescued at the last minute by waves of heroic green defenders. All of the Imperials would be shocked to find that they had been saved by orks in the name of the Empruh, avatah of Mork (or Gork).

Of course, none of the unconventional allies would be accepted by the Imperium at large, but that's analogous to the fact that noone wants the entire Grey Knights chapter to fall.

RustyKnight wrote:Imperial Daemons would be difficult for several reasons: daemons are bound to their god's will, daemons are bound to the warp, and the entire Imperium rejects them. That said, I could see a sufficiently powerful psyker/inquisitor enslaving daemons to use them against xenos/chaos. Voila, Imperial Daemons.

There are explicitly warp entities that are not associated with the Ruinous Powers. Although the closest they get to being Imperial would be the Watchers in the Dark with the Dark Angels.

There are cases of people being possessed by pro-Imperial powers though: living saints.

RustyKnight wrote:B) Remove the tattoo'd skin and grind off the engraved markings.

That's just silly. "Let's skin them and grind down their bones." There wouldn't be anything left to turn at that point.


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DarknessEternal wrote:
There are explicitly warp entities that are not associated with the Ruinous Powers. Although the closest they get to being Imperial would be the Watchers in the Dark with the Dark Angels..

My understanding was that the Watchers were part of the Cabal and simply choose to take the form of Jawas so as to not freak people out and to better mesh with existing myths/legends of Caliban.

DarknessEternal wrote:

RustyKnight wrote:Imperial Daemons would be difficult for several reasons: daemons are bound to their god's will, daemons are bound to the warp, and the entire Imperium rejects them. That said, I could see a sufficiently powerful psyker/inquisitor enslaving daemons to use them against xenos/chaos. Voila, Imperial Daemons.

There are explicitly warp entities that are not associated with the Ruinous Powers. Although the closest they get to being Imperial would be the Watchers in the Dark with the Dark Angels.

There are cases of people being possessed by pro-Imperial powers though: living saints.

I assumed daemons meant daemons of the Ruinous Powers. I know there exist non-chaos warp entities, but I didn't think they were germane.

Since furies aren't actually bound to a god, could they choose to help humanity?

Omegus wrote:

RustyKnight wrote:B) Remove the tattoo'd skin and grind off the engraved markings.

That's just silly. "Let's skin them and grind down their bones." There wouldn't be anything left to turn at that point.

I'm assuming that the tattoo'd skin doesn't cover the entire body (if it does, either remove the tattoos with lasers or remove in patchs and replace with synthskin or skin from a donor) and that you could grind off the surface layer of the bones . Destroying the entire bone would be unnecessary; if any bones were compromised either replace them or reinforce them.

Are you going to reply to any of the other points, or should I assume you accept them as truth?

My humble point of view is that is is entirely possible that a Grey Knight can fall from his glorious perch.

1. The most hated piece of fluff by Matt Ward describes a group of Grey Knights performing a ritual from the blood of Sisters of Battle to create a talisman to protect against the Bloodtide. This means that the Grey Knights do possess limitations but it seems they are quite aware of the limitations from their training, prayers, abilities, and their possession of various wards and protections. This little piece of writing directly contradicts that Grey Knights are completely uncorrectable.

2. Just because something hasn't happened yet doesn't mean it can't. Considering the length of the existence of the Grey Knights and their constant need to combat the forces of chaos then even if the chances of a brother falling to Chaos was .000-(insert maybe a million more zeroes here)-01% chance during any encounter with the forces of chaos then the odds would slowly stack to the point that a Brother will fall to Chaos. Now even though the odds during any one encounter are basically incorruptible the thousands of years of thousands of battles and thousands of battle brothers that probability would slowly rise to where a battle brother, somewhere at sometime, flipped a and went insane and turned to Chaos.

3. Being "incorruptible" does not necessarily mean that they are incorruptible. The Titanic was seen as practically unsinkable at the time before her maiden voyage from England so the thought of someone wanting to take out insurance on her would almost be seen as laughably absurd. The Grey Knights may have not have had a brother fallen to the ruinous powers yet but they may not have found their own iceberg just yet.

4. The tendency of the Grey Knights to perform mind wipes and kill even loyal members of the Imperium who have witnessed their presence may lead to the possibility that there may have been battle brothers who fell to the powers of chaos but their comrades who may have survived the encounter were mind wiped or cleansed. This idea is supported that the Purifiers are the sole members of the Grey Knights who know the true nature of their captive within Titan. The Supreme Grand Masters have access to information that is kept from their fellow brothers. If all Grey Knights were beyond corruption than such measures of secrecy would be unnecessary.

While the idea of a band of Chaos Grey Knights is somewhat far fetched as it would be effectively impossible for a group of Grey Knights to turn to Chaos except the worst imaginable events(possibly Terminus Decree worthy...). Though I have a firm belief that a Grey Knight could possibly turn to chaos, escape the immediate wrath of his battle brothers, escape off world from the inevitable Exterminatus degree that would follow such an act, and then manage to escape into the Eye of Terror, Maelstrom, or some other forsaken place to escape from the Grey Knights who would seek to slay him to redeem the name of the Grey Knights.

I can certainly see why people think of the Grey Knights as incorruptible and that is a perfect valid interpretation of the fluff. Though I feel from what I have read that they are the best defenders of mankind against Chaos but they are not perfect and can possibly fall like the Emperor's own sons. Though I would probably have a hard time swallowing a Chaos Grey Knight army though I would not turn down a chance to play against someone and enjoy (read eye roll) their own little piece of fluff that they created.

@Rusty: So your argument is that it's possible to corrupt a Grey Knight as long as you remove absolutely everything about him that makes him a Grey Knight? Rip off his skin, grind down the surface layer of his bones, hell go ahead and mind-scrub him as well to get rid of all that indoctrination. What you have left at the end of the day is no longer a Grey Knight, just a shell.

As far Grey Knights willingly turning to Chaos? "A Grey Knight's psychic presence is anathema to creatures of the Warp, utterly unpalatable to a Daemon's dark appetites and thus entirely immune from corruption." In other words, so extremely unlikely that it's practically impossible. They don't have varying degrees of vulnerability, since a novice has to undergo trials where they are tempted by Chaos and must prove themselves immune to their lure. Purifiers are just a tiny sub-faction (a few score in total) of dour-faced fanatics, whose focus/faith/fervor/f-word of choice is so extreme that it manifests as psychic fire that cleanses the tainted. Belief is a very powerful thing in the 40k universe. There are faithful of the Imperial Cult that would gladly die in the Emperor's name, and then there are those who are so faithful that they become warp conduits/living saints. Or as a different example, take the World Eaters... they are all a bunch of loons, but Kharn is super-duper loony... but him being extra flying rodent gak crazy doesn't suddenly make other World Eaters sane. Just because Fulrgim would feth you six ways to Sunday, doesn't make other Emperor's Children Mormons.

So we are told these guys are incorruptible over and over again, none of them have ever been corrupted, one Grey Knight willingly turning to Chaos is about the most unlikely thing in the entire 40K setting (much less enough of them turning to field an army), while the process of corrupting them against their will is so convoluted and far-fetched that it crosses well into ludicrous territory.

RustyKnight wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:

RustyKnight wrote:Imperial Daemons would be difficult for several reasons: daemons are bound to their god's will, daemons are bound to the warp, and the entire Imperium rejects them. That said, I could see a sufficiently powerful psyker/inquisitor enslaving daemons to use them against xenos/chaos. Voila, Imperial Daemons.

There are explicitly warp entities that are not associated with the Ruinous Powers. Although the closest they get to being Imperial would be the Watchers in the Dark with the Dark Angels.

There are cases of people being possessed by pro-Imperial powers though: living saints.

I assumed daemons meant daemons of the Ruinous Powers. I know there exist non-chaos warp entities, but I didn't think they were germane.

Since furies aren't actually bound to a god, could they choose to help humanity?

There was a list in an old White Dwarf back oh so long ago (can't remember which) of a 'good' daemon army. The fluff for it basically stated that since the Chaos powers are a reflection of emotion you have those that reflect negative emotion and those that reflect positive. Only, currently the negative images in the warp seem to be the more powerful. So 'good' chaos gods and daemons do exist, they just aren't as common or as powerful as their evil counterparts.

Has anyone given thought to the idea that maybe the wards and runes don't work? It wouldn't be the first time the IoM put faith in something that didn't actually exist. Crazy I know.

Omegus wrote: So your argument is that it's possible to corrupt a Grey Knight as long as you remove absolutely everything about him that makes him a Grey Knight? Rip off his skin, grind down the surface layer of his bones, hell go ahead and mind-scrub him as well to get rid of all that indoctrination. What you have left at the end of the day is no longer a Grey Knight, just a shell.

My argument is that the Grey Knight fluff is contradictory, so the player can decide. On the skin comment, you just ignored my explanation. I never wanted to mindscrub him; I'll ignore that comment. How are the surface of his bones and his skin the two most important parts of being a Grey Knight? They aren't; they're base physical properties that utterly have no impact on whether he is or isn't a Grey Knight.

Removing parts of the skin and the surface layer of the bones leaves a lot more than a shell. Leaves muscle, most of the skin, most of the bones, the brain, the soul, all the delightful space marine glands, the geneseed, etc.

Omegus wrote: As far Grey Knights willingly turning to Chaos? "A Grey Knight's psychic presence is anathema to creatures of the Warp, utterly unpalatable to a Daemon's dark appetites and thus entirely immune from corruption." In other words, so extremely unlikely that it's practically impossible.

And yet other fluff supports them falling to Chaos.

Omegus wrote:They don't have varying degrees of vulnerability, since a novice has to undergo trials where they are tempted by Chaos and must prove themselves immune to their lure.

The fact that some Grey Knights (the Purifiers) are less vulnerable to corruption means that other Grey Knights must be more vulnerable, otherwise the Purifiers can't be less vulnerable.

If the Purifiers aren't less vulnerable, why give the Blade of Antwyr to them? Couldn't any of the Grey Knights wield it with just as little of a chance to fall? Why not use it's powers? If they're uncorruptable, nothing bad will happen. If they cannot fall, then why do they all fear being the first? As someone else said, no point in fearing the impossible.

Omegus wrote:Purifiers are just a tiny sub-faction (a few score in total) of dour-faced fanatics, whose focus/faith/fervor/f-word of choice is so extreme that it manifests as psychic fire that cleanses the tainted.

Only partially correct. The Purifiers are also described as being more incorruptable than their brothers, meaning that their brothers are more corrupable meaning that they can be corrupted. You can't get more incorruptable than entirely incorruptable.

Omegus wrote:Or as a different example, take the World Eaters... they are all a bunch of loons, but Kharn is super-duper loony... but him being extra flying rodent gak crazy doesn't suddenly make other World Eaters sane.

Kharn being as crazy as he is does show us that Khorne Berzerkers are not as crazy as possible. Purifiers show us that regular Grey Knights are not as incorruptable as possible. If regular Grey Knights are not as incorruptable as possible, than they are not entirely incorruptable. If they are not entirely incorruptable, they can be corrupted.

Omegus wrote: So we are told these guys are incorruptible over and over again,

As I've stated before, the fluff also tells us that they can be corrupted.

Omegus wrote:none of them have ever been corrupted,

First time for everything!

Omegus, why do you refuse to respond to my posts?


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nomotog wrote:Has anyone given thought to the idea that maybe the wards and runes don't work? It wouldn't be the first time the IoM put faith in something that didn't actually exist. Crazy I know.

Since the hexagrammatic wards are given in-game effects, I think we can safely assume they do work. Of course, maybe a strong enough chaos entity over a long enough period of time could break them.


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Guaiwu wrote:There was a list in an old White Dwarf back oh so long ago (can't remember which) of a 'good' daemon army. The fluff for it basically stated that since the Chaos powers are a reflection of emotion you have those that reflect negative emotion and those that reflect positive. Only, currently the negative images in the warp seem to be the more powerful. So 'good' chaos gods and daemons do exist, they just aren't as common or as powerful as their evil counterparts.

I must find this text!

Is this argument based purely on the fact that GW's fluff has inconsistencies?

Guaiwu wrote:Is this argument based purely on the fact that GW's fluff has inconsistencies?

The argument is that since Grey Knight fluff tell us that Grey Knights are corruptable, so you can have Chaos Grey Knights.

Is this inconsistent with some parts of the fluff? Sure, but the opposite position is also inconsistent. The inconsistency of GW fluff is a sad but inescapable facet of their games.

Except the fluff doesn't say that, you are stretching ambiguous, poorly written fluff to the extreme. 5% of GK being exceptionally pure does not mean the other 95% are impure. Those 95% of Grey Knights are painful to be around to daemons, while the other 5% are downright lethal. Blam, the supposed inconsistency of Purifiers is gone. The goofy Bloodtide story could be interpreted as additional protection against physical effects of the Warp (even a Grey Knight could succumb to a bolt of change, for example). Presto, the need for additional protection is justified. As for the opposite position, it's hard to argue with phrases such as "utterly incorruptible". In fact, I bet if you were to scan the whole document, "incorruptible" would easily be among the top three adjectives used.

The fluff blurb about them "fearing to be the first to fall" I have been unable to find after scouring the book. A reference would be appreciated.

Then, if we ignore Ward's garbage (because it really is garbage) and look to other sources for GK background, the one point it is extremely consistent on is that they are incorruptible. Even a Grey Knight who had his psychic wards nullified and a daemon of Tzeench take residence in his head, still was able to not only not turn to Chaos, but destroy the daemon and bring down the entire society of a planet dedicated to Khorne. The book further states that daemons have nothing with which to tempt GK... their only desire is to see Chaos annihilated. In order to successfully court a Grey Knight, Chaos would have to unmake itself.

In the end, I have to agree with Reemus. Possibly, in some extremely unlikely and incredibly far-fetched ridiculous situation a single Grey Knight could perhaps maybe possibly turn to Chaos (and even then in some kind of zealous renegade joining forces with Malal to destroy Chaos much more bettah scenario). And perhaps he would even survive longer than 30 seconds after the fact. Maybe. But a bunch of them? Much less enough to field an army's worth? Nonsense.

RustyKnight wrote:

Guaiwu wrote:Is this argument based purely on the fact that GW's fluff has inconsistencies?

The argument is that since Grey Knight fluff tell us that Grey Knights are corruptable, so you can have Chaos Grey Knights.

Is this inconsistent with some parts of the fluff? Sure, but the opposite position is also inconsistent. The inconsistency of GW fluff is a sad but inescapable facet of their games.

The problem is those 'proofs' of corruptibility are ridiculous in themselves, as no record of corruption exists, saying one is less corruptible than another is like saying you haven't been taken by aliens due to your tin-foil hat. True the hat might be protecting you but since no one else has been taken there is no reason to assume it does anything, just as there is no reason to assume more incorruptible is any better than incorruptible as neither has ever fallen.
I'm not going to argue that it is impossible for Grey Knights to fall, because lets face it, its a story, and really I couldn't care less. But to base arguments on slight word nuances is to go down the tin-foil hat, and, dare I say it, religious interpretation path.

It's not just slight word nuances, it's entire sections. I'm not going to argue whether they can or can't, but no-one can argue that He Who Must Not Be Named has written a book which contradicts itself in several places, or puts what should be a clear-cut concept into ambiguity.

Personally, I prefer that they can fall to Chaos, but that they are steeled against it. On the flip side to their strength, they all fear being the first to fall, that the eternally battle against the corruption they have to fight their entire lives. It adds a human, fallible side to what are perceived as the pinnacle of mankind's protectors.

Guys, we've sat here and debated the GK's rules til we were blue in the face, then the FAQ came out.

Well, the fluff is equally confusing. But there will be clarification soon. I recently spoke to Aaron Dembski-Boden, who's next project, after the Heresy book he's writing, is a reboot of the Grey Knights books, taking over from Ben Counter.

I expect great things - and for issues like this to be settled.

dajobe wrote:Surely Chaos demons cant be persuaded to join the imperium, right? they are just demons to the bone, and are completely made of demon stuff, doesnt mean they cant go to the imperium, right?

/sarcasm


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i want kharne, and abaddon in my SM army, they are SM technically right? whats to keep them from going back to the imperium, theres nothing thats guarenteed they wont!

Weeeell... I'm pretty sure that Inquisitors have a tendency to use daemons. And comparing two of Chaos' chosen returning to the Imperium isn't at all like one or two Grey Knights over the course of ten thousand years turning to Chaos.

[quote=RustyKnight

dajobe wrote:Imperial Demons, IMperial Chaos Space marines, Imperial Nids, Imperial Necrons, Imperial Eldar, Imperial Orks, HAHA, i have just won the galaxy over for the Imperium, your welcome GW...we can all stop playing 40k, we now know the ending, lol

Imperial Daemons would be difficult for several reasons: daemons are bound to their god's will, daemons are bound to the warp, and the entire Imperium rejects them. That said, I could see a sufficiently powerful psyker/inquisitor enslaving daemons to use them against xenos/chaos. Voila, Imperial Daemons.

Imperial Chaos Space Marines is an oxymoron, seeing as Chaos Space Marines reject the Imperium by definition. You could mean loyalists that use daemonic artifacts (like the Reflictors) or traitors turning back to the worship of the Emperor. Neither of those two scenarios are impossible and both could make for engaging armies.

Imperial Nids? Since the larger 'nids are linked to the hive mind, such a concept would be limited to individual swarms of gaunts and other smaller creatures. It would be interesting to see an army of the Ordo Xenos with swarms of Gaunts being corralled by adepts in power armour (Warriors), adepts in sentinels (Zoanthropes/Lictors/Venomthropes), Deathwatch in Dreadknight-like machines (Trygons/Carnifex), and inquisitors in Throne of Judgement-esque contraptions (Hive Tyrants). Doesn't someone have a Tyranid Mechanicus army?

Imperial Necrons are rather easy. Just have a Lord decide to change sides. Maybe have him join the Blood Angels; those two seem to get along already.

Imperial Eldar are the same. They will already aid the Imperium to aid themselves. You would only need to think of a long term reason for the two to work together.

Imperial Orks? Why not? Isn't one of the Ork klans made of mercenaries anyways? Just have a heretical governor hire them. Alternatively, have a warboss begin to worship a primarch/chapter master/the Emperor as an avatar of Gork... I really like that last idea. You could write stories with seemingly doomed planets rescued at the last minute by waves of heroic green defenders. All of the Imperials would be shocked to find that they had been saved by orks in the name of the Empruh, avatah of Mork (or Gork).

Of course, none of the unconventional allies would be accepted by the Imperium at large, but that's analogous to the fact that noone wants the entire Grey Knights chapter to fall.

Durza wrote:Weeeell... I'm pretty sure that Inquisitors have a tendency to use daemons. And comparing two of Chaos' chosen returning to the Imperium isn't at all like one or two Grey Knights over the course of ten thousand years turning to Chaos.

Despite the fact that every other Inquisitor we meet in fluff is a radical or full-on Chaos-corrupted, the actual percentage of radical inquisitors is relatively small. The orthodox sects have a significant majority.

And the comparison is actually quite apt, because neither of those things have ever happened.

I'm pretty sure there are Imperial Daemons. Really based on her description, I think St. Celestine is a daemon as is the Sanguinor from the Blood Angels. That said they don't have the Daemon rule but they show up where needed. From books it seems that St Sabbat is a daemon. They are all Daemons of the Emperor in my opinion who after 10000 years of abject worship has become a Warp God.

thats an interesting take, but what i meant was painting bloodletters and nurglings gold and and putting imperial logos on them, because IMO, that would be as ridiculous as Chaos GK

andrewm9 wrote:I'm pretty sure there are Imperial Daemons. Really based on her description, I think St. Celestine is a daemon as is the Sanguinor from the Blood Angels. That said they don't have the Daemon rule but they show up where needed. From books it seems that St Sabbat is a daemon. They are all Daemons of the Emperor in my opinion who after 10000 years of abject worship has become a Warp God.

Yes, but they're called Saints and Angels by Imperials.

It's like a reversal on the whole "Demons are actually Angels" thing in Christianity.

andrewm9 wrote:I think St. Celestine is a daemon as is the Sanguinor from the Blood Angels.

Celestine is possessed. Sanquinor is a straight up daemon though.

This reminds me of a discussion I had elsewhere concerning the power of faith and its source as well as the relationship between emotions and the warp:

The emphasis on the psycic energy of the warp is a very good point. Perhaps faith works as a catalyst? Where psykers are able to connect directly to the warp, thus having much more influence and power (but simultaneously also being subject to corruption as some sort of "feedback" from the warp as well as potentially growing more arrogant with the might they could wield), faith might allow people with extremely strong convictions to indirectly manifest their burning emotions - be them hope, mercy or hate - as focal points around which the reality will be altered, without any kind of "hands on" manipulation like the psyker would do. This makes Acts of Faith much less controllable and more a matter of subconsciousness or instinct, but also foregoes the threat of a warp incursion or similar effects.

After all, was it not the emotions of the Eldar that resulted in the birth of Slaanesh?

And here's an almost heretical thought: What if all those Living Saints are born out of nigh-similar events, just on a smaller scale? At times of great need, and out of the collective emotions of the faithful? An embodiment of all the holy zeal and focused aggression, "possessing" one of the faithful and ascending her to temporary demi-godhood - until her body finally breaks from the immense stresses of being interspersed with this kind of raw power.

DarknessEternal wrote:

andrewm9 wrote:I think St. Celestine is a daemon as is the Sanguinor from the Blood Angels.

Celestine is possessed. Sanquinor is a straight up daemon though.

Don't confuse Celestine with Sabbat who would who really is some sort of possessing entity. Celestine animated her own body (assuming she really died) and doesn't seem to have possessed anyone after that. There is no evidence to suggest that she has come back again according to the existing fluff unlike St Sabbat.

Omegus wrote:Except the fluff doesn't say that, you are stretching ambiguous, poorly written fluff to the extreme. 5% of GK being exceptionally pure does not mean the other 95% are impure. Those 95% of Grey Knights are painful to be around to daemons, while the other 5% are downright lethal. Blam, the supposed inconsistency of Purifiers is gone. The goofy Bloodtide story could be interpreted as additional protection against physical effects of the Warp (even a Grey Knight could succumb to a bolt of change, for example). Presto, the need for additional protection is justified. As for the opposite position, it's hard to argue with phrases such as "utterly incorruptible". In fact, I bet if you were to scan the whole document, "incorruptible" would easily be among the top three adjectives used.

The fluff blurb about them "fearing to be the first to fall" I have been unable to find after scouring the book. A reference would be appreciated.

Then, if we ignore Ward's garbage (because it really is garbage) and look to other sources for GK background, the one point it is extremely consistent on is that they are incorruptible. Even a Grey Knight who had his psychic wards nullified and a daemon of Tzeench take residence in his head, still was able to not only not turn to Chaos, but destroy the daemon and bring down the entire society of a planet dedicated to Khorne. The book further states that daemons have nothing with which to tempt GK... their only desire is to see Chaos annihilated. In order to successfully court a Grey Knight, Chaos would have to unmake itself.

In the end, I have to agree with Reemus. Possibly, in some extremely unlikely and incredibly far-fetched ridiculous situation a single Grey Knight could perhaps maybe possibly turn to Chaos (and even then in some kind of zealous renegade joining forces with Malal to destroy Chaos much more bettah scenario). And perhaps he would even survive longer than 30 seconds after the fact. Maybe. But a bunch of them? Much less enough to field an army's worth? Nonsense.

This is the singularly most intelligent point raised in the entire thread. I feel it needs repeated.