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Trenchers sound good, but your rules for them are a bit too good! Going first in assault is howling banshees expertise, and honestly I'm not seeing how you're managing to bonk an Archon on the head with a bunch of shovels before he's tearing at you with his super doped up reflexes. However I like the premise of guys specializing in fighting in trenches, and it definitely could be expanded/refined:

-Instead of having them always hit first, how about if they get assaulted, they always count as being in cover? So by default in that scenario, they would go first (but only if receiving a charge, makes more sense) and that itself could be mitigated by frag/plasma grenades.

-Earthworks is just Stealth special rule, dude. How about if the squad didn't move this turn they get a 5+ coversave vs blast weapons? Makes more sense.

-In the spirit of Storm Troops, give them Hotshot lasgun, Hotshot laspistol, CCW.

-Linebreakers is great, totally fits the theme.
-Change Rear Guard's Storm Shield to Refractor fields (5++ save all the time)
-Advance Team: What if they came in on the opponent's table edge if reserve? (and had stealth too!)

Very cool unit, the Trenchers but it feels like its still a part of the platoon. They also feel a little bit OP'ed. defintly material to work with though.
skirmish squads are also cool. so many good ideas but the need for an elite human CC squad is still out there.

I doubt an I of 3 would ever be able to bonk an Archon on the head, the having rending in the first turn of ANY assault might need explanation. I didnt mean they strike first, just that whether they assaulted or were assaulted they would gain the rending rule for that first round of combat only. The loss of the AP 3 las guns takes away the marine killer role which is already assigned to the storm troopers themselves and hopefully balances the other rules a little more.

Not a completed work but a suggestion to run off.
There are three things I feel are missing from the IG with combat.

Dedicated mess with the enemy units, first turn assault with crappy guys, why? more like why not?
Something to tie up the opponents melee monsters all game, or to put in front of the termie filled land raider.
Marbo's with more than a one turn wonder purpose.

I feel that the suggested swaps sound great too, swapping deep strike for coming off the opponents edge from reserve would be a wicked and unique twist, and yes SS upgrades are way OP, was thinking of limiting to half the squad max, but dropping to a 4/5+ would be more in line with the codex, not a SS but some kind of Riot Shield or the like.

Ya' know, the Calean Drop Engineers that were just fixed up feel like a perfect fit to the elite fighting squad you have in mind, why dont you use them, they're located just below this thread and they have a pretty good base to mold your fluff out of.


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oh, and riot shields sound good...they should only be used for only CC though(cant see them using it to defend against a LascannonXD)

Call it a parry shield 5+ invulnerable in cc and +1 atk?


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Refractor fields seem more like hq stuff

Again I would stress the best way to impliment this would be to have 'tiers'.

On the lowest tier you have platoon skirmisher squads, who dump a lot of attacks and a few power weapon attacks. These units would be comparable to guardian storm squads, and make more sense fluff-wise; think about it- Eldar fluff says Guardians are their 'National Guard'. Imperial Guard Regiments number in the countless thousands- they aren't hurting for recruits! It makes more sense fluff wise that they would at least have a 'assault' detachment to their platoons.

On the middle tier you have the vets. These are the guys that weren't hormagaunt chow and actually learned how to swing a chainsword a bit better. So they have WS4 and you could pay more to give them a specialization, or keep them vanilla and have a smaller but slightly better melee unit.

On the top tier you have the shock troop variant, which comes with a special ability free, carapace, and several other options the other ones dont get. These are the 'Marbo' type squads; the Stone Cold Killers of the Guardsmen armies, not Speiss Marine uber, but bad ass in their own right.

This allows the player the flexibility to deploy what best suits his army and needs. Need a bubble wrap unit? Take the basic skirmishers. Want something that will hold up to other armies' basic assault unit? take vet skirmishers. Want something actually be a genuine thorn in their side? Take the elite counterparts.

Yeesh. Lot of guard players in here, I can tell from the inflated stat lines and weapon options!

One thing that isn't really being given consideration is that most of the codexes are really good at one thing. It could be midrange shooting (GK), Melee assaults (Orks), or enough shooting to blow everyone and their dead grandmothers off the face of the earth (IG). In these other armies there are units that go outside these parameters, but they are generally worse than the codex units that consider that their specialty, or over costed. From what I have seen, its just an Imperial Guard wishlist. In essence, you want a unit that is as good as a mob of 30 boyz with a PK nob in it. The platoon idea seemed a bit crazy. 4 hidden power weapons, all outfitted with pistols and CCWs and given the furious charge USR? If we're talking about a fluff perspective, I don't care how inspired your little trooper is, unless he's Sgt Harker he is going to get pounded by an ork. So, for your IG dedicated unit...if you are planning on making it reasonable and perhaps get it instituted then make it a toned down version of the other codex units.

Give an IG platoon the option to take a ccw and las pistol for the extra attack or give them the furious charge rule. Not both. 4 power weapons? Make it two. A Sgt and a Commisar. Keep the stat-lines the same and then you have a nice bubble wrap unit that won't completely imbalance the game but won't blow at CC. And as far as elites go? Just mess with Ogryn's prices and stats until you've reached something that is better than its current state.

In response to the tier suggestion. I don't think that assault is in the basic training of a trooper. They are literally handed a lasgun and some armor and thrown out into the trenches. So they shoot and shoot and hope the enemy doesn't get to them. And if they do, they're either hoping the butt of their lasgun will do the work or the Commisar will come to save their bacon. REmember that the IG army is patterned in a very similar fashion to that of the Russian army in WW2. This means that they were given guns and told to shoot.

But the idea has some validity in a sense. If you want "skirmishers" then make them conscript-esque. Almost like taking that unit and outfitting it for CC. This would allow you to have a cheap, expendable unit that would represent, fluff wise, a beleaguered batch of new recruits that couldn't be given standard issue equipment. I think the only types of men that would be any more trained in melee would be Catchatans and body guards for the Lord Generals. So make these jungle fighters like basic guardsmen squads but more equipped to deal with CC. Maybe reduce the top numbers to 15, give them CCWs, a stealth or infiltrate rule, and maybe 1 higher weapon skill with the ability for a Sgt to take a power weapon. Then allow your HQ to take body guards specializing in CC. Simple.

So you have 3 reasonable options for CC (from the eyes of a non IG player). You have conscript CC units, a higher skill trooper CC unit, and then the big and scary body guards for your HQs. Because honestly, an empire so big won't go out of their way to hand out special training. It either is given to the few (Body Guards) or to those that pick it up in the field (Jungle Fighters).

What even might be a better thing, would be to give the imperial guard an order that would grant an afflicted unit the Counter Attack USR. That would make sense fluff wise and wouldn't break game mechanics. Your basic guard squad faces down some orks. They don't want to just give up, so when the officer sees that the orks are assaulting he orders the men to charge and meet them to cause as many casualties as possible.

Call the order "Repel the Enemy!" or something to that end, and just so it isn't broken it'd be an order you couldn't reroll to represent the swiftness of the attack and possible garbbling of orders. It'd make a 30 man powerblob a force to be reckoned with.

gpfunk wrote:In response to the tier suggestion. I don't think that assault is in the basic training of a trooper. They are literally handed a lasgun and some armor and thrown out into the trenches. So they shoot and shoot and hope the enemy doesn't get to them. And if they do, they're either hoping the butt of their lasgun will do the work or the Commisar will come to save their bacon. REmember that the IG army is patterned in a very similar fashion to that of the Russian army in WW2. This means that they were given guns and told to shoot.

Yeah...no it's not. That's the way people who have no clue about the Imperial Guard believe they're patterned. The Imperial Guard are, in all actuality, one of the most professionally trained forces in 40k. They have basic training that is standardized throughout the organization, they have equipment that is standardized throughout the organization, etc.
Their training is on par with what the Tau give their "superelite Fire Warriors", so that's not the issue.
Their equipment is designed with practicality in mind, not necessarily effectiveness. It has to be produced in stupidly huge numbers, in stupidly small timeframes. A Forge World can outfit a Guard Infantry Regiment in a manner of weeks. No other faction in 40k can match that.
There is also none of this "they hope their Lasguns work or the Commissar will come save them, and they're simply given guns and told to shoot" crap. They go through months of training after being inducted into the Imperial Guard, and many of them have prior weapons experience from serving in the PDF, a nobleman's house militia, an underhive gang, etc.

gpfunk wrote:I think the only types of men that would be any more trained in melee would be Catchatans and body guards for the Lord Generals.

You can think that, but you'd be wrong so completely and utterly it's not even funny.

Close combat is not simply melee. The sooner this gets through people's head the better. You do not need a "melee unit" for the Imperial Guard. They don't do that, aside from a few feral world Regiments and even then they still have riflemen by and large. The "melee" units tend towards being scouts, so that they can kill the enemy silently.

The Guard's response to melee is to utilize Stormtroopers and/or shotgun and flamer equipped units to push the enemy back.

Actually, standard training includes bayonet training.

CONSCRIPTS aren't taught how to assault yes. But Cadian Shock troops, Catatchan Jungle Fighters, Death Korps of Krieg, etc? They know how.

Heck DKoK even manage it by having WS4.

All in all I think the best way to solve this issue is looking at the penal legion knife fighters. I say make them a new elite unit with upgrades. And keep the two psychopath/gunslingers rules for penal legion. Players choice

How about a Heroic Veteran Squad then? Going off of the idea of the Heroic Senior Officer of previous editions and all, basically veterans with more customization options but they don't score (elites) and they're more expensive.

@ Kanluwen

Thank you for your input! I always enjoy a well presented, and vigorous argument. To simply say "Yeah, no its not" to my point that the Imperial Guard are very similar to the Russian war machine in WW2 would probably be short changing the issue. Just to point out some things. The manufacturing ability of the IG is vast and extensive. The Russians were as well! They could churn out cheap, and durable tanks faster than any other country that was currently in the war. Obviously, they ran into financial issues but given the Russian's abilities to produce standard, practical equipment I would say you'd be hard pressed not to find some similarities in that regard.

In terms of battle tactics. The Imperium of Man certainly doesn't always conduct its forces in a "professional" manner as though it was using "professional" soldiers. I would suffice it to say that it is not beyond the scope of Guard commanders to send hundreds of thousands to pointless deaths in an effort to choke the enemy with the sheer weight of corpses. The ridiculously large amount of men in the guard lead to a decreased value in the life of the average trooper. This means that they will be used in manners far from "professional." They will be thrown in massive waves at emplacements and the sheer might of numbers can be counted on to save the day. Granted, not all units will be used in this way. Storm Troopers and other men with highly specialized training will be sent on more important missions with a higher chance of returning the investment, this I would agree with you on. But the generic trooper can always be counted on as cannon fodder. This is certainly in fluff. The Russians used their men in the same fashion. Send that many bodies at an enemy and they are bound to break at some point. There is a reason the IG is called the hammer of the emperor.

Commissars. They are almost directly based on Russian Disciplinary Officers. Officers that were given free reign to punish insubordination and cowardice with death. They were responsible for the morale of the troops and were charged with doing anything within their power to keep the men in line. Why would the Russians need men like that to lead? Better yet, why would the imperial guard need a man like that to lead professional troops? Because not every trooper is an elite, badass, super professional with nerves of steel and a DKoK attitude. Because of this, I don't think it too outlandish to question the professionalism of the IG as a whole. Not to say that their aren't professional, badass units like those in the guard. There are.

So those are just a few points that I hope i've explained adequately to try and draw the conclusion that the Russians and the Imperial Guard do indeed have similarities that you'd be hard pressed to shuffle under the rug.

On the matter of Close Combat. I was addressing the OP's query. He wanted a melee unit. He may have said CC but he meant melee unit. He brought up several times the idea of knife fighters, and samurai-esque units. And especially in the rules of 40K as we are talking about a unit that will be used in the game, CC means assault. Plain and simple. Swords and sticks, bayonets and rifle butts. So you'll forgive me if I assumed that when we were talking about CC we were talking about it in the sense of the game rules.

And now to your tone. I'm not sure if you are a serious Guard fan or what, but I seem to have insulted you in some way. I apologize if my previous post seemed combative, but I did my best to present it in a neutral tone, in order to get my opinions across. If you thought that I was wrong in my views, instead of say coming back with an overtly hostile response you could consider replying in an explanatory way. Endeavoring to teach rather than to rage about people's lack of knowledge. I think there is far too much hostility in the world, and I think we should seek to remove as much unnecessary hostility from the world as possible -gets off soap box- Once again, if I offended through brevity or tone, I apologize.

@ Melissia

I can certainly conceive that basic guard training would include bayonet training, as our own military keeps up with the practice. Hence why I think adding an order that increased the damage a squad can bring in melee would be extremely effective at what the OP would want and wouldn't require any sort of unit revision or creation. Then again, as you pointed out, why not simply give the IG an option to bring a "named" unit of guardsmen. It could be the Catchatans, the DKoK, or as Kanluwen hinted at, some sort of scout force that specialized in taking enemies out silently. The Tanith First and Only come to mind immediately.

OP of the thread is to find a unit or make changes so that would give us more incentive to use elite choices as right now there isn't much . Good ideas everyone . Keep em coming ,

Ps my samurai are just a wish list.


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Hmm new idea what about taking inspiration from marbo, but make it a commando unit.5 guys equipped with ripper pistols, and poisoned cc weapons . They come in from reserve and can't be placed closer than 6 inch. Away from an enemy anywhere on the board.

They'd be our monstrous c. Hunters, harry heavy support sqd. Etc.

Marbo could be a sergeant upgrade/ ?

gpfunk wrote:@ Kanluwen

Thank you for your input! I always enjoy a well presented, and vigorous argument. To simply say "Yeah, no its not" to my point that the Imperial Guard are very similar to the Russian war machine in WW2 would probably be short changing the issue. Just to point out some things. The manufacturing ability of the IG is vast and extensive. The Russians were as well! They could churn out cheap, and durable tanks faster than any other country that was currently in the war. Obviously, they ran into financial issues but given the Russian's abilities to produce standard, practical equipment I would say you'd be hard pressed not to find some similarities in that regard.

I didn't say there's no similarities. I said that to liken them to the Russians is a bit cheap. More on that in a second.

In terms of battle tactics. The Imperium of Man certainly doesn't always conduct its forces in a "professional" manner as though it was using "professional" soldiers. I would suffice it to say that it is not beyond the scope of Guard commanders to send hundreds of thousands to pointless deaths in an effort to choke the enemy with the sheer weight of corpses. The ridiculously large amount of men in the guard lead to a decreased value in the life of the average trooper. This means that they will be used in manners far from "professional." They will be thrown in massive waves at emplacements and the sheer might of numbers can be counted on to save the day.

And Commanders who behave like this usually don't stay in command for long.

Granted, not all units will be used in this way. Storm Troopers and other men with highly specialized training will be sent on more important missions with a higher chance of returning the investment, this I would agree with you on. But the generic trooper can always be counted on as cannon fodder. This is certainly in fluff.

Yeah...the Stormtroopers are actually the ones commonly used for suicide missions. They're highly motivated, highly trained, and they are heavily equipped to ensure that they can get in and destroy/kill the target.

The Russians used their men in the same fashion. Send that many bodies at an enemy and they are bound to break at some point. There is a reason the IG is called the hammer of the emperor.

Yes. Because they're the sledgehammer, unlike the Astartes which are the scalpel. The "send hundreds of thousands of men and tanks" is slowly becoming the rarity for Guard, while professionalism and motivation are becoming the standard in the fluff. There's a reason that Chenkov is talked about as a "tyrant". You don't use those words when it's the common standard.

Commissars. They are almost directly based on Russian Disciplinary Officers. Officers that were given free reign to punish insubordination and cowardice with death. They were responsible for the morale of the troops and were charged with doing anything within their power to keep the men in line. Why would the Russians need men like that to lead? Better yet, why would the imperial guard need a man like that to lead professional troops?

Commissars don't lead. They're advisors to the commanders. Their job is to ensure the line holds, and in many cases they are brought in if the Regiment has Sanctioned Psykers attached since Commissars are trained to watch for any sign of corruption.

Because not every trooper is an elite, badass, super professional with nerves of steel and a DKoK attitude. Because of this, I don't think it too outlandish to question the professionalism of the IG as a whole. Not to say that their aren't professional, badass units like those in the guard. There are.

The problem is that those "professional, badass units" are the majority. The criminal scum who need constant monitoring are the minority, as are the newly founded regiments with no experience at all.

So those are just a few points that I hope i've explained adequately to try and draw the conclusion that the Russians and the Imperial Guard do indeed have similarities that you'd be hard pressed to shuffle under the rug.

And they have far more in common with the Wehrmacht, United States Army, etc. They're highly professional, highly trained, and equipped pretty admirably for a force that numbers in the billions.

The problem is simply that they are men.

On the matter of Close Combat. I was addressing the OP's query. He wanted a melee unit. He may have said CC but he meant melee unit. He brought up several times the idea of knife fighters, and samurai-esque units. And especially in the rules of 40K as we are talking about a unit that will be used in the game, CC means assault. Plain and simple. Swords and sticks, bayonets and rifle butts. So you'll forgive me if I assumed that when we were talking about CC we were talking about it in the sense of the game rules.

Then it's time CC stops referring to swords and sticks. It's the biggest failing of 40k and it's one of the reasons that Tau have an issue.

And now to your tone. I'm not sure if you are a serious Guard fan or what, but I seem to have insulted you in some way. I apologize if my previous post seemed combative, but I did my best to present it in a neutral tone, in order to get my opinions across. If you thought that I was wrong in my views, instead of say coming back with an overtly hostile response you could consider replying in an explanatory way. Endeavoring to teach rather than to rage about people's lack of knowledge. I think there is far too much hostility in the world, and I think we should seek to remove as much unnecessary hostility from the world as possible -gets off soap box- Once again, if I offended through brevity or tone, I apologize.

I have to explain this point almost every month in one form or another. If it comes across as hostile, it's because people refuse to learn or read anything outside of fluff that's years old.
There's a very important reason that Chenkov is referred to in the Guard Codex as a "tyrant".

@ Melissia
I can certainly conceive that basic guard training would include bayonet training, as our own military keeps up with the practice.

There's no "conceiving" about it. It's pretty standard in all descriptions of Imperial Guard.

Hence why I think adding an order that increased the damage a squad can bring in melee would be extremely effective at what the OP would want and wouldn't require any sort of unit revision or creation.

Or we can have the close combat rules reworked so that we can make it feasible for ranged armies to 'repel' incoming assaulters.

Then again, as you pointed out, why not simply give the IG an option to bring a "named" unit of guardsmen. It could be the Catachans, the DKoK, or as Kanluwen hinted at, some sort of scout force that specialized in taking enemies out silently. The Tanith First and Only come to mind immediately.

The Catachans aren't specialists in melee. Death Korps aren't either.
They just specialize in close range fighting. The Krieg forces, for example, train extensively in utilizing massed grenade tosses and volley fire inside of trenches to clear out their opposition.

The "taking out enemies silently" part is going to be difficult to represent on the tabletop.

Drookian Fen Guard.

There. I said it.

Guys in tartan with bad Braveheart woad paint-jobs and laspistols and sharp pointy things. There's your CC unit.

Or better yet, you could maybe accept that the Imperial Guard isn't supposed to get into CC because they are the second worst race in the Galaxy at it, and the Administratum actually knows it! Penal Legion troopers can be surprisingly good in CC, as long as you roll well enough to get them the proper skill set, and they don't all get shot down on their way accross the battlefield.

The IG deals with CC the same way it deals with Heresy, Treason, Independant Thought, and Xenos: by shooting the everloving feth out of it with millions and millions of lasguns.

As a Guard player, do I wish the Codex had a rock-hard CC unit that could tear up anything? Heck yes. But I also realize that it isn't in the fluff, and it would be completely out of character for the Guard. If you want to tear stuff up in CC with badass dedicated CC units, play Space Marines. Or Orks. If you want Leman Russ battletanks and way too many lasguns, play Guard.

Now, if you absolutely want CC in your Guard army (nothing wrong with that... you're playing a theme build, and those can be a lot of fun, if not neccessarily tournement viable) there are ways to butch out an existing unit...

Make your Command Squads CC units by giving everyone carapce armor, CC weapons and pistols, and dropping a Priest and a Lord Commissar in there. Give em a Chimera. Likely to lose your Command Squad? Yes, you are. You can also tear non-power weapon enemies many new holes.

Take Penal Legion squads and give em a Priest and a Commissar (actually, giving any unit a Priest and a Commissar goes a long way to making them CC viable). If you manage to roll well and get Furious Charge, you will tear gakk up.

As has been said before, Veterans with carapace and assault weapons galore. And a Priest and a Commissar.

Also, don't forget to take a Priest and a Commissar for you CC unit.

@squidhills,

We all know ig is a siege army, I know the thread title says melee, but the whole post is about having a lack of incentive to use our elite troops , so I suggested a new unit that could pose a threat in close combat, which are what ogryns are supposed to be. That was just me throwing an idea. The elite unit could be ranged if it provides enough incentive to use. Etc.

squidhills makes many sensible words happen

in reality, us guard payers that want a rock hard CC unit are like ork players that wish they had great marksmen, tau that have big swords, eldar with heavy armor, nids that want tanks and GK players that dont want to be cheesy


its just no in our fluff

Fairfeldia wrote:squidhills makes many sensible words happen

in reality, us guard payers that want a rock hard CC unit are like ork players that wish they had great marksmen, tau that have big swords, eldar with heavy armor, nids that want tanks and GK players that dont want to be cheesy


its just no in our fluff

Fair enough but ateast give us an elite troop choice worth taking lol. I still love storm troopers despite it all

Fairfeldia wrote:squidhills makes many sensible words happen

in reality, us guard payers that want a rock hard CC unit are like ork players that wish they had great marksmen, tau that have big swords, eldar with heavy armor, nids that want tanks and GK players that dont want to be cheesy


its just no in our fluff

We HAVE a rock hard CC unit.... it's called carapace vets w/shotguns, flamers and heavy flamer, and pfist/shotgun sarge. It does most of its damage in shooting, then it charges the crippled unit (which can be as little as one or two models left, if the enemy went with a five man squad) and finishes them off in hand to hand.

Melissia wrote:

Fairfeldia wrote:squidhills makes many sensible words happen

in reality, us guard payers that want a rock hard CC unit are like ork players that wish they had great marksmen, tau that have big swords, eldar with heavy armor, nids that want tanks and GK players that dont want to be cheesy


its just no in our fluff

We HAVE a rock hard CC unit.... it's called carapace vets w/shotguns, flamers and heavy flamer, and pfist/shotgun sarge. It does most of its damage in shooting, then it charges the crippled unit (which can be as little as one or two models left, if the enemy went with a five man squad) and finishes them off in hand to hand.

yes on the attack it is rock hard, but if it gets charged by a dedicated CC unit its gunna get minced

Going back to the chainfist Sentinel idea Forge World's got rules for the Sentinel Powerlifter, which is basically a Scout Sentinel with S7 instead of guns for 25pts; alternately stick a Ministorum Priest in any squad and overwhelm the enemy with the weight of numbers.

Fairfeldia wrote:yes on the attack it is rock hard, but if it gets charged by a dedicated CC unit its gunna get minced

I'm okay with that.

Well if you run a dedicated CC unit at a squad that has taken gear to be more CC-viable, of course they're going to get demolished. But against the average enemy, vets with shottys, flamers and pfists would perform better than vets with lasguns.

I think an elites option that's good in CC for its points comes down to fixing Ogryns, rather than adding a completely new unit.