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I have a set of meganobz which was custom which I built for a 500pt tourney. The theme was Zero atmosphere orks. It involved some MANZ, some 'ard boyz in power armor and some dreds. They were supposed to look like orks in space marine armor.
TERMIMANZ
They are non-standard models and may be confusing for WYSIWYG and may be oversized which could cause issues. I have made the sarcophagus removable so you can see the cyborky gutz inside. It looks much more like Mega armor without the dred exterior. I even used Mega armor legs and base size.

If I choose to use them at an event, I usually ask before hand for a To's permission to use them. Most times they are allowed. Sometimes they are not. I have had their landraider BW disallowed twice for being larger than the stock BW. The models themselves, except for a slightly larger profile than Ghaz for the megaboss, the models work fine.

But if a TO disallowed, then I would use my metal MANZ and Ghaz instead.

Base size, basing, Model size, are all discretionary things that you can slightly deviate from the norm, but you live and die by 'rule of cool'.

NOVA has some very strict guidelines in regards to custom vehicles... because of them, I have decided to avoid bringing my non-standard BWs. I do not want to show up and make a fit about the dozens of events I have used them at and how 10 years ago we had no official BW and how they had to hold 20 models. I respect the TO's expectation to have stock models, I respect players who expect stock models and I respect my own choice not to own any stock BWs at the moment and have all Land-raider based BWs from my 3rd edition days.

So now I am taking a biker boss instead to that event I am not going to show up and complain all day about gamers rights.

I didn't mean to sound like I was attacking you or your opinion. I was hoping for something a little more in depth than "I think that this is cool so it's OK. This thing isn't cool to me so it's not OK." Even though the same effort was put into both things. In other words I was looking for an objective standard and I thought you might have had one. Just like the 3 color rule has been expanded to make it more objective (no 3 dots on a base = pass).
Again I don't mean to attack you or anyone else in this matter but the "rule of cool" just leaves me cold when it comes to entry requirements. It's fine when you want to give bonus points for it but it's just too subjective, to me, to make it an entry rule.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:I didn't mean to sound like I was attacking you or your opinion. I was hoping for something a little more in depth than "I think that this is cool so it's OK. This thing isn't cool to me so it's not OK." Even though the same effort was put into both things. In other words I was looking for an objective standard and I thought you might have had one. Just like the 3 color rule has been expanded to make it more objective (no 3 dots on a base = pass).
Again I don't mean to attack you or anyone else in this matter but the "rule of cool" just leaves me cold when it comes to entry requirements. It's fine when you want to give bonus points for it but it's just too subjective, to me, to make it an entry rule.

Well, I don't know about others, but I'd consider a black base fine if 1) the base was neatly painted black, with no stray paint marks, and 2) it helped tie the miniature together, meaning there can't be black boots and a black base.

A clear base indicates the desire to have, well, clear bases. What do black bases represent? It does take effort to find and use clear bases, esp. since basic black bases come with the models.

Here's a question for people that are opposed to black bases: what if they were gloss varnished when the model wasn't? Giving it a more mirror look?

Abstract Catalyst wrote:I fail to see why people should have to do anything to such an unimportant part of the model.

Oh and sand isn't free, to get anywhere near any 'free' sand I'd have to pay £20 in petrol. Plus, taking sand is stealing, and most sand would look awful on a model base.

I just pick up a bucket of sand from the local park and sift it through a strainer. It's been working for me for the last 20 years.

I guess we should define what is "based."

I know a guy who uses black bases on all of his models because he prefers the look. All of his bases are painted black, and the circular edge is highlighted.

Is that "based?"

Who decides, overall, what qualifies as "based." Note, I said "overall," so "The TO" (or similar) is not a valid answer to my question.

Eric

Ifurita wrote:

Abstract Catalyst wrote:I fail to see why people should have to do anything to such an unimportant part of the model.

Oh and sand isn't free, to get anywhere near any 'free' sand I'd have to pay £20 in petrol. Plus, taking sand is stealing, and most sand would look awful on a model base.

I just pick up a bucket of sand from the local park and sift it through a strainer. It's been working for me for the last 20 years.

Ah, that might be a local law thing - in the UK, it's technically illegal to remove sand from many of our beaches, and sand in parks is more often than not the property of the County Council or a private owner. Silly, I know, but 'tis the law, nevertheless, and last I heard Dakka wasn't big on endorsing illegal activity.

On the subject of basing, it's my major weakness in the hobby - hate it with a passion, and it always feels like my lack of ability to 'choreograph' a base ruins the model. But if it's necessary to play in the tourneys you want to go to, you have to jump through the hoops, I guess.

I use micro arts bases for mine so no flocking, just painting. Now if you don't want to do bases at all there was a person on here that was using clear bases for his minis. For the life of me I can't remember the person but someone on here will know.

He uses the clear bases so the table shows through. Instant bases that blend with what ever table you are playing on.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:I didn't mean to sound like I was attacking you or your opinion. I was hoping for something a little more in depth than "I think that this is cool so it's OK. This thing isn't cool to me so it's not OK." Even though the same effort was put into both things. In other words I was looking for an objective standard and I thought you might have had one. Just like the 3 color rule has been expanded to make it more objective (no 3 dots on a base = pass).
Again I don't mean to attack you or anyone else in this matter but the "rule of cool" just leaves me cold when it comes to entry requirements. It's fine when you want to give bonus points for it but it's just too subjective, to me, to make it an entry rule.

It's not an entry rule, that's the point. I'ts a saying, a generalization, an exception. An objective standard would be "NO". You're not getting a lot more depth, because 1)I don't have models sitting in front of me, 2) It's hypothetical, and not really affecting anyone, and 3) You actually have a lot more depth to the discussion, from other posts.

I never said, "I think that this is cool so it's OK. This thing isn't cool to me so it's not OK." That's you making something up, then standing it up to attack the arguement.

I can't imagine, let alone write rules for, everything that a gamer might bring to the table. The restrictions say 'NO, not allowed', and in some cases, there may be exceptions to 'NO', but I can't give you objective standards on hypothetical situations that I can't imagine.

As to: Just like the 3 color rule has been expanded to make it more objective (no 3 dots on a base = pass). , me and many other TO's have never let that pass, but we can't force other TO's to not let it slide.

The old rule was "Painted using at least 3 colors". It mean't you actually had to PAINT your model. Not just put 3 colors somewhere on the model. If it didn't pass the first test: Is the model painted? then passing the test of "are there 3 colors?" is sort of meaningless.

Back to the hypothetical example you want objective standards for: Although we'd let it slide as 'based', he's going to lose points in the painting catagory since it can't meet the requirements for anything beyond minimum basing.

A clear base indicates the desire to have, well, clear bases. What do black bases represent? It does take effort to find and use clear bases, esp. since basic black bases come with the models.

What do clear bases represent? Why is effort part of the equation, and how hard is it to google 25mm clear plastic bases and enter your credit card information?

I can really see no difference between clear plastic bases or solid black bases, yet someone who prefers a solid black base is considered lazy, while someone who prefers a clear plastic base is cool.

augustus5 wrote:

A clear base indicates the desire to have, well, clear bases. What do black bases represent? It does take effort to find and use clear bases, esp. since basic black bases come with the models.

What do clear bases represent? Why is effort part of the equation, and how hard is it to google 25mm clear plastic bases and enter your credit card information?

I can really see no difference between clear plastic bases or solid black bases, yet someone who prefers a solid black base is considered lazy, while someone who prefers a clear plastic base is cool.

It's a subtle distinction, and I for one disagree with it (to an extent). But it's not as difficult as you imagine.

Clear bases represent whatever is below them. They're picked less for their own inherent aesthetic and more to blend seemlessly into whatever terrain is on the board.

I know you're just playing devil's advocate, but it is a greater effort to order bases (often in multiple sizes) and then attach them, comparted to simply using the parts in the kit.

Don't put words in people's mouths. solid black bases are considered unbased by some. Clear bases are pretty clearly a base (that can't be painted or flocked). Laziness has less to do with it.

The basing rule stems from establishing minimums, meaning three colors and a non-bare plastic base. It really didn't consider a fully painted mini on a flat black base, which is part of the problem. Do you allow an exemption for "well painted" armies, but not bare minimum? What's the objective standard there?

Where I disagree with Mikhalia is that I don't see neatly painted (not bare plastic) bases as "un-based." I think that if you want flat black, you should be allowed it, it just needs to be both neat and consistent.

augustus5 wrote:and how hard is it to google 25mm clear plastic bases and enter your credit card information?

Dunno, a couple of minutes and I didn't find anything. I'd actually be interested in stocking them if someone finds a supplier, let me know.

I haven't really read this thread much, but they are clear ACRYLIC bases, and you'll find them aplenty if you search using that term.

FYI they scratch easily, like aquarium acrylic, and look like ass once they scratch.

I assume people have already suggested the huge variety of scenic bases from great companies like back2base-ix, micro art studios, dragonforge, warcast studios, etc? Most are pretty cheap, and way more durable than flock natch ...

Abstract Catalyst wrote:I really hate basing rules.

'Hey guys, now that you've spent £20 on a box of 5 troops, how about you pay us some more money for flock just so you can pay?'

How about no. I fail to see why basing models is a necessity. I do base mine, but only using plasticard cut into small tile sections to give the appearance of urban tiling - but if somebody wants to play me I don't even particularly mind if their units are even painted, let alone based. For me, the painting & conversion side of the hobby is as fun as the battles, but I don't see why people should be forced to go through these procedures in order to play the game.

Basing your models makes them stop looking like crap. Even a basic level base with 2 drybrushes of grey over black sand with a tiny bit of flock makes a model infinitely better looking. Oh, and it costs zero unless you want flock in which case it costs about $8 for your entire army.

MVBrandt wrote:

FYI they scratch easily, like aquarium acrylic, and look like ass once they scratch.

Actually I was thinking about that... This is the main reason I 'base' my flying stands because the clear stuff wears badly.

Almost seems like you would need an IPAD screen cover for the bottom of the clear bases to protect them.

Aye ... all I can ever think of is aquaria. I worked with marine life, and eventually very large scale aquaria (10k gal +) for the entirety of my first career ... and I'll never get over how awful it is when acrylic scratches.

Same with Mylar. Having a 1000.00 comic in new mylar looks fantastic with the ultraclear, slightly shiny surface. After a while in a comic box, especially a dealers box at shows, they pick up an accumulation of minor scratches, dulling the surface and ruining the presentation. The mylar is still good for 30 years for preserving the comic, but dealers swap them out for new, shiny mylar, to help sell the high end books. Most of my personal collection is in scuffed mylar, as I don't want to chuck it, still good for it's main purpose.

ph34r wrote:

Abstract Catalyst wrote:I really hate basing rules.

'Hey guys, now that you've spent £20 on a box of 5 troops, how about you pay us some more money for flock just so you can pay?'

How about no. I fail to see why basing models is a necessity. I do base mine, but only using plasticard cut into small tile sections to give the appearance of urban tiling - but if somebody wants to play me I don't even particularly mind if their units are even painted, let alone based. For me, the painting & conversion side of the hobby is as fun as the battles, but I don't see why people should be forced to go through these procedures in order to play the game.

Basing your models makes them stop looking like crap. Even a basic level base with 2 drybrushes of grey over black sand with a tiny bit of flock makes a model infinitely better looking. Oh, and it costs zero unless you want flock in which case it costs about $8 for your entire army.

Basically you are illogical and wrong; stop whining.

My opinion is wrong? Wow, that makes brilliant sense. I personally quite like the look of painted black bases with highlighted grey edges, in fact I prefer them over the silly leafy Catachan ones or badly executed sand bases. 'Basing your models makes them stop looking like crap' is entirely an opinion, don't try and use it pragmatically.

Flock looks even worse, in my opinion. It just looks cheap and unclean. Holding that opinion isn't whining, and denying people entry into a competition when they've already paid the extortionate prices for GW models simply because they prefer simpler looking bases is ridiculous. Those clear bases are a perfect example of that - they require the same level of effort as painting and highlighting the black bases, but because you've thrown money at it you're allowed to use them in a tournament.

Abstract Catalyst wrote:Holding that opinion isn't whining, and denying people entry into a competition when they've already paid the extortionate prices for GW models simply because they prefer simpler looking bases is ridiculous. Those clear bases are a perfect example of that - they require the same level of effort as painting and highlighting the black bases, but because you've thrown money at it you're allowed to use them in a tournament.

Sorry, not really trying to keep the arguement going, but look at what you wrote.)

-Since someone spent money on GW models, they shouldn't be denied entry to a tournament.

-Throwing money on clear bases shouldn't count.

Which is it? Money counts or not?

You're logic has a flaw though. Each person's preferences don't modify the tournament requirements. You could claim you prefer unpainted models, and by the same arguement not have to paint.

mikhaila wrote:Sorry, not really trying to keep the arguement going, but look at what you wrote.)

-Since someone spent money on GW models, they shouldn't be denied entry to a tournament.

-Throwing money on clear bases shouldn't count.

Which is it? Money counts or not?

You're logic has a flaw though. Each person's preferences don't modify the tournament requirements. You could claim you prefer unpainted models, and by the same arguement not have to paint.

It's not a flaw, they're two different thing. You have to buy the models in order to play, obviously - but you don't have to buy clear bases. As such, the more money you spend over the initial limit the more likely you are to be able to enter a tournament. Now I don't mind that idea in things like painting contests and Golden Demon, as they obviously require more money, but to simply play I think it's a silly rule to have.

Not painting the model at all is different again, and - as nobody has claimed to prefer unpainted model - is just a strawman.

Abstract Catalyst wrote:
It's not a flaw, they're two different thing. You have to buy the models in order to play, obviously - but you don't have to buy clear bases. As such, the more money you spend over the initial limit the more likely you are to be able to enter a tournament.

Except that's not true. Or, at least, not true in the way you're phrasing it. You don't have to spend any more money to base models. Even leaving aside the tremendously low cost of flock or even that gravel is pretty availble nearly anywhere for free, you can use cut up sprue to make rusted metal bases.

Digging in heels on what's literally a few dollars in basing materials is pretty odd, given the other costs associated with tournament play (gas, lunch money, entry fees, etc.)

Now I don't mind that idea in things like painting contests and Golden Demon, as they obviously require more money, but to simply play I think it's a silly rule to have.

Well, most of us brandy drinking moneybags in the tournament circuit can easily afford kitty litter and dollar store oregano. I know that the lower classes can't come up with the cash, but that's how we keep things classy.

Not painting the model at all is different again, and - as nobody has claimed to prefer unpainted model - is just a strawman.

I've seen people claim to prefer unpainted or flat primed models to whatever paint job they are capable of. So it's not that great a strawman.

Polonius wrote:Digging in heels on what's literally a few dollars in basing materials is pretty odd, given the other costs associated with tournament play (gas, lunch money, entry fees, etc.)

I'm not digging my heels in, as I've previously stated I do base my models. I simply think that forcing people to do things to their models is silly. The game is meant to be all about creating and fielding and army you like, and you shouldn't be penalised for doing so. I hope you don't mind me not answering the rest of your post, it's just that I feel people are misunderstanding what I'm saying and so wanted to clarify the above point.

Abstract Catalyst wrote:

Polonius wrote:Digging in heels on what's literally a few dollars in basing materials is pretty odd, given the other costs associated with tournament play (gas, lunch money, entry fees, etc.)

I'm not digging my heels in, as I've previously stated I do base my models. I simply think that forcing people to do things to their models is silly. The game is meant to be all about creating and fielding and army you like, and you shouldn't be penalised for doing so. I hope you don't mind me not answering the rest of your post, it's just that I feel people are misunderstanding what I'm saying and so wanted to clarify the above point.

If you're point is simply that people should be able to do what they want with their models, that's a fine and universally accepted point.

I'm not sure what that has to do with the requirments to enter a private event are. I can dress however I want, but not if I want to get into certain clubs.

You also raised a lot of tangential points about money and the like which seemed to indicate that you had a problem with the tournament policy, and not making a general statement about people's freedom to do what they wish.

Abstract Catalyst wrote:

Polonius wrote:Digging in heels on what's literally a few dollars in basing materials is pretty odd, given the other costs associated with tournament play (gas, lunch money, entry fees, etc.)

I'm not digging my heels in, as I've previously stated I do base my models. I simply think that forcing people to do things to their models is silly. The game is meant to be all about creating and fielding and army you like, and you shouldn't be penalised for doing so. I hope you don't mind me not answering the rest of your post, it's just that I feel people are misunderstanding what I'm saying and so wanted to clarify the above point.

You may feel The game is meant to be all about creating and fielding and army you like, but when you participate in someone else's event, the event is about more than just 'the game' and often requires appearance-related requirements. When you play in some one's event, you play by their requirements. If you don't like the requirements, don't participate.

I am not going to hide in an alley with a fist full of sand and a bottle of glue and hop out and knock you down and begin basing your minis... You can do whatever you want or whatever you don't want... But don't expect to be universally accepted and don't expect for a rule not to be enforced because you think it is dumb. You may think basing is dumb, your opponent may think some other 'rule' is dumb and chooses not to follow it. If people get to decide which rules they don't like and don't have to follow the event dies. So if you don't like the rules, don't participate.

And the 'I like unpainted models' always translates into 'I am a metagame bandwagoner who wants maximum resale value on eBay for when I want to hop to the next codex.' Which is fine... just realize you are restricted from many large-scale competative events, and only really can take that list to FLGS and 'ard boyz. If you are happy, I am happy.

It's not a flaw, they're two different thing. You have to buy the models in order to play, obviously - but you don't have to buy clear bases. As such, the more money you spend over the initial limit the more likely you are to be able to enter a tournament. Now I don't mind that idea in things like painting contests and Golden Demon, as they obviously require more money, but to simply play I think it's a silly rule to have.

And the beautiful thing is, if you ever decide to expend the time, energy, and money to run your own event, then you can choose to not have such a silly rule.

And if a tournament you want to go to does have the silly rule, you can choose to just sit home, or abide by the restriction and go play.

This gives you total freedom in how you choose to interact with such a silly rule.

Holy cow folks. I didn't mean to hit a sore spot. So I'm guessing that opinion varies?

As the OP I just want to clarify a few things:
1. Cost is not an issue as I am buying overpriced toys imported from 5000 miles away. I can afford sand cork plasticard static grass and gold dust. Well, not gold dust.
2. I think that I've painted to a higher standard than just 3 colors and sprinkle on saw dust on elmers glue. I'm not a great painter or anything, but I am a hobbyist. You can be the judge from my gallery.
3. The army (including vehicles) are 100% "dipped" as are the bases. I did this for durability and transport mainly. I'm able to store the whole army in ziplocks and a plastic box. BUT the problem is elmers won't stick to polyurethane and sand WILL flake off. Then the little green skinned bugger will look bad and I'll get all OCD.

Then the wife will know that the toys are more important to me than I let on and she'll divorce me.

So, I will beg the TO to save my marriage and let me play....

DrG

Scenic Bases. If price isn't an issue, they are still pretty cheap, and they are uniformly awesome. Back 2 Base Ix, Dragonforge Design, Warcast Studios, Micro Art Studios ... etc.

Check 'em out ... the bases won't flake off, they look great, they're hobby-enhancing, etc.

doktor_g wrote:So, I will beg the TO to save my marriage and let me play....

Now, that's a valid arguement, and one I can feel sympathy for.)

doktor_g wrote:3. The army (including vehicles) are 100% "dipped" as are the bases. I did this for durability and transport mainly. I'm able to store the whole army in ziplocks and a plastic box. BUT the problem is elmers won't stick to polyurethane and sand WILL flake off. Then the little green skinned bugger will look bad and I'll get all OCD.

Hmm, water based glue on oil based dip. That might indeed cause something of a problem. Will depend a lot of the dip. Might have a solution though.

We did over 250 thousand sons for Games Day this year, and use Army Painter dip as one of the steps. I never really thought about the elmers not sticking, and used that, but the next steps probably fixed the proplem. We needed to get these done in assembly line, so I based them using flock from Gale Force 9. They sell it in small tubs the size of a hockey puck. I'll use it straight from the tub, or mix a couple together for the look I want.

1. Emers glue painted on with an old brush, dredge base in flock.
2. After it dries, lightly brush excess off with a brush.
3. Use testors gloss coat on the model, making sure you hit the base pretty heavy.
4. Dull coat with Testors Dullcote to whatever point you thing the models look good. Especially with a dip, this takes away a lot of the shine, and makes more colors pop out. I will go back and add shiny highlights if needed with a brush.

This will keep the flock from ever coming off. Super hairspray effect. I do a similar thing on scenery now. Heavy coat of Krylon Crystal Clear, followed by Dullcote to take off the shine.

Doktor_g, hit up Walmart. They tend to have a super glue that has a brush applicator. It's what I use for basing.

When did "based" come to mean something other than "on a base"?

DarknessEternal wrote:When did "based" come to mean something other than "on a base"?

'3 colors and based' is a short descriptive term to describe a more detailed standard which has been in place for decades within wargaming. So if you are referring to the 'based' part of '3 colors and based' they don't mean a model that is silver metal, grey plastic, green stuff and black base...