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October 2007. Imperial Armor Apocalypse states this. Mr. Kinkade even explains what it is meant by it.

*sigh*

I know, it's the internet.

I'd love that! Most forgeworld stuff is overcosted. There are only a few things in the forgeworld books that are not balanced. On the whole that would add a lot more variety to the game which I think is great.

Astro allows FW (not superheavy) in its tournament and I can't say it made any difference to the games. If you are going to play against people who are going to abuse the rules and max out on Blight Drones, they will max out whatever broken units they can anyway. Personally I think they bring balance to the game as they open up a greater range which can often help counter a broken codex list.

Easy to say use FW rules when SM keep getting updated all the time. What about other races that haven't been updated, like Tau, or Tyranids. I am not sure if Necrons have even been in IA.

I say, use with opponents permission since it is mostly for Space Marine players.

If true, I can see everyone getting FW to just to get even. Also how are you going to use 4th edition rules say Tyranids for 5th edition Tyranids and rules?

Again easy for SM players but not for other races.

hsojvvad wrote:Easy to say use FW rules when SM keep getting updated all the time. What about other races that haven't been updated, like Tau, or Tyranids. I am not sure if Necrons have even been in IA.

I say, use with opponents permission since it is mostly for Space Marine players.

If true, I can see everyone getting FW to just to get even. Also how are you going to use 4th edition rules say Tyranids for 5th edition Tyranids and rules?

Again easy for SM players but not for other races.

Necrons haven't yet but I've high hopes for future. We get another dying craftworld, something with Tzeentch then... Necrons!!! (I hope)

hsojvvad wrote:Easy to say use FW rules when SM keep getting updated all the time. What about other races that haven't been updated, like Tau, or Tyranids. I am not sure if Necrons have even been in IA.

I say, use with opponents permission since it is mostly for Space Marine players.

If true, I can see everyone getting FW to just to get even. Also how are you going to use 4th edition rules say Tyranids for 5th edition Tyranids and rules?

Again easy for SM players but not for other races.

in short "Stupid Spheess Mareens always get all the toys". Got to love the race basis. Before Badab its was pretty even with IG stuff and SM stuff. Hell most of the stuff was made for IG at first. And these rules issues can be solved with errata which FW is actually good at.

As I have just started putting together a 2000pt Elysian army using the IA8 army list, this news is relevant to my interests.

None of my close friends mind me using them, but it'd be nice to be able to enter a few tournaments with them.

LavuranGuard wrote:Astro allows FW (not superheavy) in its tournament and I can't say it made any difference to the games. If you are going to play against people who are going to abuse the rules and max out on Blight Drones, they will max out whatever broken units they can anyway. Personally I think they bring balance to the game as they open up a greater range which can often help counter a broken codex list.

Forge World accessories, such as bits I'm fine with that. Forge world models that essentially forces you to purchase another set of rules/codex in order to make sure that those people who are abusive in their game play do not pull the rug over your head? I'm not fine with that. If the rumor is true, then this is another way GW is trying to increase their monetary resources due to the decline of normal sales that was shown in their past fiscal report.

Adam LongWalker wrote:Forge world models that essentially forces you to purchase another set of rules/codex in order to make sure that those people who are abusive in their game play do not pull the rug over your head?

I'm sorry but if you're getting the rug pulled over your head then it's your own damned fault. People who use these extra units should be showing up with their rules, and if they don't, then you shouldn't play them. If you allow them to play without having the rules in front of you, then you deserve everything you get.

Besides, it's difficult to pull the rug over people's heads with most FW units as most FW units are terrible.

Cost prohibits most from having a large assembley of FW gear anyway, but if supplementry codex info was incorporated it woulds surely encourage more to buy no matter the cost, my introduction to forgeworld was through a gamesday and before that and the fact no reference is made to mods in the GW codex I hadnt given much thought to it except occassional discussions at the gaming club I go to, 40k is a relatively expensive hobby(not for a working person like myself)but the average Fw product , Fantastic as they are, is the prolly 3 times more expensive than GW stuff, even if this is a mute point really FW product needs to be codexed!even if it where a supplementry sheet, I only find out points/playability scanning forums.

Moot point! Moot! You're from England for crying out loud - speak the Queen's English!

And for some of us Forge World is the same if not cheaper than local prices.

Yep, HBMC is correct on that point, My all FW Elysian army was cheaper than if I had purchased a similar sized cadian army. Go figure.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Adam LongWalker wrote:Forge world models that essentially forces you to purchase another set of rules/codex in order to make sure that those people who are abusive in their game play do not pull the rug over your head?

I'm sorry but if you're getting the rug pulled over your head then it's your own damned fault. People who use these extra units should be showing up with their rules, and if they don't, then you shouldn't play them. If you allow them to play without having the rules in front of you, then you deserve everything you get.

Besides, it's difficult to pull the rug over people's heads with most FW units as most FW units are terrible.

Of course I would not play them. My comment is made because on what I can perceive what would happen in my region at a the local GW stores. It would be controlled chaos over there. It is stuff like this that is I'm now making the switch to FOW and looking at Dusk Tactics.

black-rabbit wrote:Yep, HBMC is correct on that point, My all FW Elysian army was cheaper than if I had purchased a similar sized cadian army. Go figure.

That is utterly insane. Buy FW now before GW cottons on and increases FW prices in line with the GW ones?

I sent FW an email the other day asking them to consider issuing some statement on facebook giving guidance to tournie organisers on the 'official' status of the WF CD list and whether it should always be seen to replace the ravening hordes list. That being the last list officially endorsed.

Or, alternatively, to state that it should be considered equally alongside the RH list, and any other fan lists and does not superceed it, if that is not the intention.

So keep an eye on their facebook page, those who check from time to time.

Here at my store we allow fore world army lists (ie lists in complete like Krieg or Tyrants Legion) and not just IA units mixed in (obviously no fliers/superheavies) in our tournaments...people complained until they read the kicker..."if it is not a GW produced model you must have the FW model or a suitable conversion" This prevented people from showing up to our tourneys with "this Crusader is a Helios type stuff"....it has worked very well so far, with the advent of IAA2 we are even looking at reviewing it and adding those units as legal choices. (our store keeper keeps a copy of any rulebook we are allowing people to use behind the counter, so if someone is being weird or doesnt have their book...just ask)

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Adam LongWalker wrote:Forge world models that essentially forces you to purchase another set of rules/codex in order to make sure that those people who are abusive in their game play do not pull the rug over your head?

I'm sorry but if you're getting the rug pulled over your head then it's your own damned fault. People who use these extra units should be showing up with their rules, and if they don't, then you shouldn't play them. If you allow them to play without having the rules in front of you, then you deserve everything you get.

Besides, it's difficult to pull the rug over people's heads with most FW units as most FW units are terrible.

No offense, but I am not going to look up every single thing during a game. If my opponent tells me a unit is toughness 4, Ballistic skill 4 is it really my fault if I don't check every single units stat line and special rule during a game?

Not to mention, for any competitive gamer, the need to buy the Forgeworld books in order to plan for and understand how the armies work.

Timmah wrote:No offense, but I am not going to look up every single thing during a game.

Kinda missing the point.

Someone shows up with a Guard army. He has a Bombard in his army. He brings his copy of IA3. You look at IA3 and see the stats. You move on and play the game. That's a big difference to looking up 'every single thing'.

I fail to understand why people are asking about the legality of lists. You are supposed to play it the way you want. As far as tournament legality goes, that's up to the organisers not FW or GW. The only way this could matter would be a tournament organised by GW and even then it still comes down to the TO's decision. It's not up to FW to declare the 'legality' of their books. Anyone who says you cant use the list from a published book isn't someone you should want to play against.

You know I've been saying that for years but all I ever hear in response is "They're opponent's permission only!!!!" which may have been true back in the days of Imperial Armour 1 and Imperial Armour 2 (not to be confused with Imperial Armour Volume 1 and Imperial Armour Volume 2), but we're long since past those days.

Timmah wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Adam LongWalker wrote:Forge world models that essentially forces you to purchase another set of rules/codex in order to make sure that those people who are abusive in their game play do not pull the rug over your head?

I'm sorry but if you're getting the rug pulled over your head then it's your own damned fault. People who use these extra units should be showing up with their rules, and if they don't, then you shouldn't play them. If you allow them to play without having the rules in front of you, then you deserve everything you get.

Besides, it's difficult to pull the rug over people's heads with most FW units as most FW units are terrible.

No offense, but I am not going to look up every single thing during a game. If my opponent tells me a unit is toughness 4, Ballistic skill 4 is it really my fault if I don't check every single units stat line and special rule during a game?

Not to mention, for any competitive gamer, the need to buy the Forgeworld books in order to plan for and understand how the armies work.

So because you wish to be ignorant, the opponent should limit his pool of units. Makes sense.

Or, to look at it from another perspective: D and D

I wish to play according to the rules released by the actual manufacturers.

Someone else want to bring a class and feats written by a third party company under license to the original game creator (there are a lot of these companies for D and D).

These books are prone to power and points imbalances, and have rules and abilities that don't alwys gel well with the existing system.

Am i obligated to allow the third party class and feats into my game?

No. I would want to at least review them, and have the power of veto.

our pool of units is the official codex ones. The others are bonus addons that your opponent has every right not to play against if they don't want to.

Before you get flamy on me for this, i don't mind playing FW units, IF i am allowed the right of refusal on any i think are OP or fethed up. I use FW units myself sometimes, and offer the same right.

You aren't entitled to bring FW units on, no matter what, just because you blew more disposable income on resin models and a new book (unless the tournament allows them, in which case they are fair game to bring, and anyone attending will know this already).

If they DO pass a game-law saying that the FW books are actual extensions of the codex it would be different. Right now, they're not.

I fail to understand why people are asking about the legality of lists. You are supposed to play it the way you want.

Not entirely correct. You play the way you and your opponent want. That's the crux of the discussion.

If someone wants to use a Forge World unit and I look at the stats and it's not overpowered, sure I might let them use it.

If they want to use something with a complete garbage broken auto-win rules-set that only forge world can release because GW wouldn't allow it to break game-balance and ruin tournaments... No way Jose.

CSM are already competitive with Lash Princes, CSM troops and Obliterators. They are balanced Without owning 125 point Nurgle airplanes which have a 36" S8 AP3 Large-blast MEQ-destroyer gun.

Heavy Support is limited for a reason. If you want to bring Defilers to kill marines, you can't bring 9 obliterators. With Forge World rules, Chaos gets heavy support guns as underpriced Fast Attack choices. I play chaos but even I would not resort to demanding someone allow me broken rules that forge world writes badly to increase demand for the product.

The Option to use rules GW itself doesn't believe are up to par is fine. Mandatory adherence to sub-par rules at tournaments and store events is not fine.

At the end of the day isn't it up to the tournament organizer whether or not to allow IA units? If I decide to run a tournament with prize support and I decide there's not going to be any IA allowed (regardless of what GW says in the future) I would be operating under the assumption that people militantly opposed to playing in a no-IA tournament can just stay home on that day.

Under the current ruleset I could, for example, run a 750 point tournament with combat patrol-style rules on 4x4 tables. It's not 40k "by the book" but it would still be a fun tournament for people who don't mind playing without their Terminators, Daemon Princes, etc.

kenshin620 wrote:

I didnt realize peopled actually played those, aside from apoc

People that aren't focused on the drudgery of tournament play sometimes add these to the rotation.

Granted we are in the minority these days...

In general . . . I find that Imperial Armour just plain suck, same with Apoc. Those massive tanks and titans with their shields do no good if I get in range of my meltaguns . . .


FIRE DRAGONS FTW!

Timmah wrote:

Not to mention, for any competitive gamer, the need to buy the Forgeworld books in order to plan for and understand how the armies work.

So your argument is that the game should be kept as narrow of variety as possible to facilitate sportshammer?

So game after game of GK vs. SW is really that fun?

I really hope this rumor is true simply because it will annoy the very people you describe to be honest...

CT GAMER wrote:

Timmah wrote:

Not to mention, for any competitive gamer, the need to buy the Forgeworld books in order to plan for and understand how the armies work.

So your argument is that the game should be kept as narrow of variety as possible to facilitate sportshammer?

So game after game of GK vs. SW is really that fun?

I really hope this rumor is true simply because it will annoy the very people you describe to be honest...

*looks at his shelf of Imperial Armour books he uses for fluff*

Oh man. The tears from the "sportshammer" crowd would be delicious.

More delicious would be the fact that I could fund three Infinity armies by renting out my IA books to them!

Ascalam wrote:Or, to look at it from another perspective: D and D

I wish to play according to the rules released by the actual manufacturers.

Someone else want to bring a class and feats written by a third party company under license to the original game creator (there are a lot of these companies for D and D).

False comparison.

FW = GW.