Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

It's not terrible, it's just not as good as many of the other ordnance battery options for cost and power.

Brother SRM wrote:It's not terrible, it's just not as good as many of the other ordnance battery options for cost and power.

Only because the Manticore is too good really. I'd say bassies are pretty even with Griffons, Medusas and Colossi

HQ: ethereals
Elite: beasts of nurgle
Troops: can't think of any
Fast: spawn
Heavy: whirlwinds

TrollPie wrote:From my limited knowledge (so just IG & Tau, which accounts for half the games' useless units):

HQ: Ethereals, especially Aun'va, Primaris Psyker, Techpriest

Primaris Psyker can be a good unit also, especially in smaller games.

Troops: Conscripts, FW, Penal Legion, both Harker & Bastonne

Harker and Bastonne are good, especially Harker. He gives you stealth and a mobile HB. Combine that with meltaguns and goodbye armor. They just cost a lot of points, thats all.

Elites: Ratlings

Agreed.

Fast attack: Gun drones, Vespid, Mogul Kamir

Agreed.

Heavy Support: Skyray, all LRBT's except basic, Demolisher and Executioner, all IG Ordnance except the Basilisk, Pask, Deathstrike

LRBT Exterminator MIGHT be useful, if you have no Hydras in your army, and have Pask with it. Otherwise, not worth it. Deathstrike? Are you kidding? That's a comedy piece, not a good unit. It takes 6+ turns for it to even get a shot, by which your enemy has killed it three times. Even if it did get a chance to launch, the effect is not that devastating. It will take some troops with it, yes. But 6+ turns? Even LRBT Punisher is better than that thing.

DC: Devilfish

Agreed.

I think that's all

Ratling is certainly not the worst Elite unit in this game...

Elite: Necron Pariahs

Heavy Support: mawloc,for 170 points you get about 3 bursts a game before its destroyed.

I've got to defend possessed marines. Best unit in the codex for taking out your enemies units with massed power weapon stuff.

With the MOT they have a 4+ invun save, sure they don't have grenades, but they are str 5 and if you roll right, you get str 6, feel no pain, or power weapons (and consequently +1 attack on each model)

Everything else is lackluster but can work. Fleet helps them do their job, scout works GREAT if they start in a transport, and rending is always welcome.

If anything, they are too expensive, points wise. I enjoy the random aspect of their rules, as I enjoy the CSM dreads and demon weapons. Take a chance, it doesn't hurt bad everytime.

TrollPie wrote:Heavy Support: Skyray, all LRBT's except basic, Demolisher and Executioner

You forgot to 'except' the Vanquisher - S8 with 2D6 armour penetration? Whack a lascannon on the hull and you've got a long ranged anti-tank gun, range 72", with a handy shorter ranged anti-tank weapon. Put it in the corner of the board and almost everything will be hitting it's frontal armour of 14, when they get in range, whilst it can dish out punishment from a long way away. With Pask in it it will become rather deadly; +1 to armour penetration rolls and hitting with BS4. For 220 points I'd take that Vanquisher.

Must admit I do have a soft spot for the Exterminator, but thats because I used one to annihilate an Ultramarines mechanised list several years ago - lascannon in the hull took out the land raider & the Exterminator autocannon chewed up everything else. Even the sponson heavy bolters got in on the act when taking on the Rhino's, but that was back when the Exterminator only had 2 autocannon shots, twin-linked. Now it has 4. I wish I had one again... but the Vanquisher is still the best option from the LRBTs in my eyes.

Pask Vanquishers are really expensive though. Considering for cheaper you can get veterans with melta guns in a chimera to serve the same purpose, the Vanquisher kind of pales. It's a very cool unit though, and one I hope to use in the future. Standard LRBT is the best all-round option since it can do well against everything short of Terminators.

HQ: Nork Deddog, I mean come on, you can wound him with a lasgun on a 4+

Elites: Ratlings

Troop: The new 5th ed Necron Warrior (jk jk jk)

Heavy Support: Carnifex (it costs too much now)

DT: Vanilla Rhino

Other/2nd placers: Sgt Bastonne, Space Pope, Lucuis, Fabius Bile, Pyrovore, Shrikes

Aun'va is the worst hq. You spend 200 points to make your army worse. I don't care that you can wound Nork on a 4 with a Lasgun, You can do the same to Aun'va.

Ethereals are quite possibly the most useless thing in all of warhammer 40k, and summoned daemons for CSM aren't much better

Beastmaster wrote:Ethereals are quite possibly the most useless thing in all of warhammer 40k, and summoned daemons for CSM aren't much better

Tell me how lesser daemons are almost Ethereal bad, and at that worse than Chaos Spawn by exclusion? They're cheap, can assault out of deep strike, and are reasonably tough with T4 and 5++. They're a good tarpit for Banshees, Terminators and the like, and are a useful distraction and harassment unit. 3.5 codex Daemonbomb they are not, but they're not useless or actively detrimental to your army like Ethereals.

lesser daemons have won me games before, they're cheap, don't take up any space on the force org chart and people tend to ignore them
the summoned greater daemon is my favorite
spawn are good only if created via the psychic power
I might run them here and there, mostly because I like the models and it fits the theme


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Beastmaster wrote:Ethereals are quite possibly the most useless thing in all of warhammer 40k, and summoned daemons for CSM aren't much better

they have one job, sitting on objectives, and you can have as many units as you can cram into your list

HQ: One I haven't seen, Commissar Yarrick. He's extremely overpriced and not worth taking as a supposed CC beast.

Brother SRM wrote:Pask Vanquishers are really expensive though. Considering for cheaper you can get veterans with melta guns in a chimera to serve the same purpose, the Vanquisher kind of pales. It's a very cool unit though, and one I hope to use in the future. Standard LRBT is the best all-round option since it can do well against everything short of Terminators.

But the Veterans have to get to the target, especially if they want the 2D6 armour penetration and that Land Raider* could be sitting right at the back of the enemy army/board - advantage of a Pask Vanquisher, whilst it is expensive, is that it allows you to strike from outside Lascannon range with an excellent chance of hitting (above average chance) with high chances of penetrating. The Pask Vanquisher LRBT also has the advantage of being armour F14 - armour F12 Chimera is easier to blow up, especially when you're having to drive it into range of enemy units when even the autocannon can take it down - all you need is a crew stunned/immobolised result and your veterans are in firing range of the enemy. For the points I'd rather have the surety of the Vanquisher but I do prefer to sit further back and fire away, but I suppose it also depends what your opponent is doing, what army setup you and they have and what mission you're doing.

*I'll use the Land Raider as an example as SM armies are common and you rarely see one without a Land Raider, It's also a very tough nut to crack.

Pyrovore

Mawloc

Bright lances (for the cost, look good but never get anywhere near the enemy)

Im going to bet, that EVERYONE that has said FlashGits as heavies, either never used them, or used them incorrectly. Firstly they are not AT what so ever, any attempt in using them that way is an auto lose. I use FlashGits regularly and love them, they have a playstyle you have to get used to, and a certain build to take (leave the blastas out for 1) and they can really kick teef in.

Seriously, build a non kan wall/BW spam list, with some thought and they can handle their gak

And Badrukk is pretty awesome!

Brother SRM wrote:

Beastmaster wrote:Ethereals are quite possibly the most useless thing in all of warhammer 40k, and summoned daemons for CSM aren't much better

Tell me how lesser daemons are almost Ethereal bad, and at that worse than Chaos Spawn by exclusion? They're cheap, can assault out of deep strike, and are reasonably tough with T4 and 5++. They're a good tarpit for Banshees, Terminators and the like, and are a useful distraction and harassment unit. 3.5 codex Daemonbomb they are not, but they're not useless or actively detrimental to your army like Ethereals.

Summned daemons aren't cheap. They cost just a bit less than chaos marines, have no armoursave, a crappy invulsave and the only thing they can kill in an assault are those things that can be killed just as well by your normal chaosmarines. To use them as a tarpit is to throw away points which could be used for something actually useful.

Flashgitz, the red head step child of the ork codex!

KingDeath wrote:
Summned daemons aren't cheap. They cost just a bit less than chaos marines, have no armoursave, a crappy invulsave and the only thing they can kill in an assault are those things that can be killed just as well by your normal chaosmarines. To use them as a tarpit is to throw away points which could be used for something actually useful.

They can assault out of deep strike, and they're a good wildcard. They're not generally the game winners or anything, but they serve their purpose. Also, that 5++ shouldn't be discounted entirely. I'd rather have them tying up Terminators, Banshees and the like than my Marines.

By "just a bit less" you mean "1/3rd less", right? They tarpit banshees or anything else rocking power weapons FAR better than a marine, because they can actually tarpit them. A crappy inv is better than none at all, especially on a model only 2/3rds the cost of what you would have used...

Hornifex wrote:Heavy Support: mawloc,for 170 points you get about 3 bursts a game before its destroyed.

HOW DARE YOU INSULT THE MAWLOC! FOR THIS, YOU SHALL BURN!

Ahem...

But seriously. For only 10 more points than a Carnifex you get an instant Terminator-killer that isn't that bad in CC. Plus it's durable, can leap around the board, and looks awesome.

nosferatu1001 wrote:By "just a bit less" you mean "1/3rd less", right? They tarpit banshees or anything else rocking power weapons FAR better than a marine, because they can actually tarpit them. A crappy inv is better than none at all, especially on a model only 2/3rds the cost of what you would have used...

It's 14% less. Yes, paying 13 points for something that is at best a tarpit is ineffective when an overal better unit costs just two points more.
My point is, to make summoned daemons effective ( 10 daemons at least are required ) you have to pay far too many points for them.
For the same amount of points you can almost have a 5man csm squad ( champion, melter, combimelter ) in a rhino., something which can block movement and los, tankshock, destroy vehicles and infantry and, if the marines decide to stay in their transport, is completely immune to small arms fire.
The ability to assault after deepstriking ( which requires an icon, which means that one of your units has to be nearby ) is nice in theory but without a sufficiently killy unit to deepstrike it fails
to impress.
If lesser daemons would be significantly cheaper ( perhaps costing 8-9 points instead of 13 ) then one could think about using them as tarpit but atm they simply fail to deliver.

You entirely ignored the point about tarpitting: daemons tarpit a hell of a lot more effectively than CSM do, becase they have an invulnerable save.

Having an invulnerable save >> not having one, when it comes to facing down banshees, terminators, etc.

And having guns> not having guns in every other conceivable situation.

Squigsquasher wrote:

Hornifex wrote:Heavy Support: mawloc,for 170 points you get about 3 bursts a game before its destroyed.

HOW DARE YOU INSULT THE MAWLOC! FOR THIS, YOU SHALL BURN!

Ahem...

But seriously. For only 10 more points than a Carnifex you get an instant Terminator-killer that isn't that bad in CC. Plus it's durable, can leap around the board, and looks awesome.

That made me chuckle.

That also proves that carnifex is no longer desirable

I'm surprised I haven't seen this yet -

Vespid. The second biggest waste in the Tau 'dex