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I just can't stand the lack of elegance with which he writes rules. Everything is a big ugly sledgehammer of a rule. Good rules piggyback on existing game mechanics to represent new things. Matt Ward likes to invent totally new things that the game has never cared about previously.

Doot doot doot, ignore this

Just remember:
It doesn't have to always or even usually win to warp the metagame in an unhealthy way.

I don't think JotWW was written by Mat Ward.

Oh crap, you're right.

Would it be better if the extent of difference in armies was which units contained which special rule as stated in the big rulebook? Personally, I like a little more difference in my armies than "my unit with infiltrate is in my fast attack slot, while yours is in your elite slot".

Oh yes... psyfleman... I'm so concentrated about not putting them in my lists that I tend to forgot the huge unbalance of psybolt for 5 points... Yes you're right about that but sincerely the inquisitorial henchmen don't seem so OTT to me and I think their point cost is pretty fair if you considr that each squad takes a FOC slot... purifiers are balaned IMHO since they are extremely killy but as killable as other marines where pallies have the right balance between cheese and point cost...
There are several different competitive builds in the GK dex, while you can't say the same about SW and DE for example... even admitting the fact that psybolt and fortitude are undercosted, I still think that GK is a good dex (the only complaint I have is that they're not so strong with teleport assault... sigh...)

Considering the Necron book isn't even out, yet, I'd say this thread was created in bad form. The OP is simply trolling or grinding his axe.

Move along.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:Because internet hyperbole =/= reality.

QFT

Most players that DON'T use forums have no idea who even writes codexes, nor do they care enough to incessantly complain about them.

What does all this complaining accomplish? GW clearly isn't going to fire him, or re-write the codexes, or do anything.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

kronk wrote:Considering the Necron book isn't even out, yet, I'd say this thread was created in bad form. The OP is simply trolling or grinding his axe.

Move along.

Also QFT

I'd *love* for MW to write the new chaos dex, as we'd get a LARGE interesting book FULL of different units, reasonable internal balance (compared to the horrible mess Kelly, Cruddace do to dexs) between units, and a few dozen ways to build fun, interesting and fairly competitive armies.

HBMC - why is it hyperbole to chart the middle course? I dont like all his fluff - the way Draigo was written was inelegant, even if the concept behind what he represents is very good - but to lump him in with game breakers such as Kelly and Cruddace massively misrepresents the sheer stupidity inherent in the SW and IG dexes.

Saying you like parts of X but not all of it is not hyperbole. Incessantly deriding the books he produces, showing no reasoned thought but just jumping on the bandwagon and, frankly endlessly regurgitating tired, tired memes that were never, ever funny or apropos IS.

Ward writes, in the main, very well internally balanced books, with a large variety in armies that can be produced from them. The other two writers DONT.

punkow wrote:Oh yes... psyfleman... I'm so concentrated about not putting them in my lists that I tend to forgot the huge unbalance of psybolt for 5 points...

Yeah, 140pts for 4 S8 BS4 TL'd 48" shots that can move and shoot to full effect, ignores shaken/stunned results >90% of the time and has powerful psychic defense is a bit low.

Yes you're right about that but sincerely the inquisitorial henchmen don't seem so OTT to me and I think their point cost is pretty fair if you considr that each squad takes a FOC slot...

It's not about the FoC slot, they're mostly irrelevant. It's the fact that you can pack in 6 scoring units in 6 metal boxes with accurate long range AT guns for about a quarter of your points in a 2000pt game with over 1300pts (assuming coteaz is already taken) to spend on all the super killy/shooty stuff. Combined with psyrifle dreads, it allows a ridiculous amount of *very* accurate long range heavy firepower coupled with plenty of points left over for lots of what are amongst the best CC units in the game.

There are several different competitive builds in the GK dex, while you can't say the same about SW and DE for example...

I think that's the first time I've heard that. It's hard to go wrong with SW's as long as you aren't trying to load up on "-claw" units, iron priests and fenrisian wolves, and DE have lots of cool and viable army builds (assuming of course you don't end up having to play against IG) with the only common thread being that DE armies generally need to be mechanized (which was true of the last book as well).

Samus_aran115 wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:Because internet hyperbole =/= reality.

QFT

Most players that DON'T use forums have no idea who even writes codexes, nor do they care enough to incessantly complain about them.

Maybe not by name, but "codex creep" is definately noticable amongst players.
Not every unit needs to have a long list of individual special rules.
Not every mechanic of the game needs to have a unit that interacts with it in some way.
I bet you any day soon there'll be a special charector that lets you steal initiative (which is stupid enough anyway) on a 5 or 6.

Vaktathi wrote:Yeah, 140pts for 4 S8 BS4 TL'd 48" shots that can move and shoot to full effect, ignores shaken/stunned results >90% of the time and has powerful psychic defense is a bit low.

And yet comparable to a 130 point 6-man long fang squad with missile launchers.
Vehicle balance is interesting, given that one krak missile could blow it up or kill off half the guns, and would end up only electing a 4+ save from the long fangs, at worst killing one guy and not taking any of the special weapons.

While the autocannons are twinlinked and effectively relentless, they're not AP3, and don't have a frag mode like the long fangs do.

It has a psychic defense bubble allowing for it to protect nearby squads from a handful of powers, but on the other hand, Long fangs can also split fire.

And then it has the ability to ignore shaken/stunned most of the time (assuming there isn't a hood around somewhere), but then again, Long Fangs basically have the same odds of resisting getting pinned, and there are far fewer weapons that effect pinning than there are weapons that can glance a dreadnought.

140 seems appropriately balanced with SW, actually.

It's not about the FoC slot, they're mostly irrelevant. It's the fact that you can pack in 6 scoring units in 6 metal boxes with accurate long range AT guns for about a quarter of your points in a 2000pt game with over 1300pts (assuming coteaz is already taken) to spend on all the super killy/shooty stuff. Combined with psyrifle dreads, it allows a ridiculous amount of *very* accurate long range heavy firepower coupled with plenty of points left over for lots of what are amongst the best CC units in the game.

So... you're angry that they have an IG like build?

Vaktahi - SW and DE have far fewer semi competitive builds than GK. As in, they have more no brainer choices.

Venoms with trueborns and blasters >> Venoms and elite wytches, for example.

Joey wrote:

Samus_aran115 wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:Because internet hyperbole =/= reality.

QFT

Most players that DON'T use forums have no idea who even writes codexes, nor do they care enough to incessantly complain about them.

Maybe not by name, but "codex creep" is definately noticable amongst players.
Not every unit needs to have a long list of individual special rules.
Not every mechanic of the game needs to have a unit that interacts with it in some way.
I bet you any day soon there'll be a special charector that lets you steal initiative (which is stupid enough anyway) on a 5 or 6.

You are a bit late I think.

Vect and the Stormlord can both seize it on a 4+.

If they even did retcon rebalancing - so that regular SM could have cheaper dev squads I think people would be happy. I hope that in te next edition they take a more privateer view (not excessively) but in regards to online updates/interactions

daedalus wrote:
And yet comparable to a 130 point 6-man long fang squad with missile launchers.

140pts actually, though still easily undercosted by 30pts. I'd still consider them viable and competive at 165-175pts.

140 seems appropriately balanced with SW, actually.

Which is to say, poorly, as both are noticeably undercosted. Relative to each other, probably fairly well balanced. Relative to their capabilities, plainly undercosted.

So... you're angry that they have an IG like build?

IG don't have force weapon wielding, power armored psyker shock troops to go with their MSU heavy weapons spam, nor generally the accuracy that TL'd BS4 provides nor the same kind of mobile effectiveness on most of their ranged AT firepower

Granted there's always the vendetta, which is just as bad as the Psyrifleman and Long Fangs in terms of firepower for the points paid, though it's generally significantly easier to get neutralize or mitigate given its size, height and lack of anything like fortitude.

Vaktahi - SW and DE have far fewer semi competitive builds than GK. As in, they have more no brainer choices.

Venoms with trueborns and blasters >> Venoms and elite wytches, for example.

if you're talking elites units and venom sure, but you probably would run elites wyches in a raider anyway with greater numbers. When it comes to Troops units, none of the DE troops are particularly poor choices next to each other.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:
You are a bit late I think.

Vect and the Stormlord can both seize it on a 4+.

):

Elite wytches are terrible compared to trueborn.

Hardly anyone uses wytches as troops, and you only use wracks as 30 point cheap scoring units - nothing more. kabalites with a blaster are generally better - they at least have some form of armour save and some antitank.

yamgrenade wrote:If I'm correct, the vast majority of wargamers feel that Matt Ward is terrible at writing codexes.

You aren't.

His work sells product.

DarknessEternal wrote:

yamgrenade wrote:If I'm correct, the vast majority of wargamers feel that Matt Ward is terrible at writing codexes.

You aren't.

His work sells product.

The product would sell regardless of who worked on it because he's only written SM books which sell like hotcakes regardless for many reasons. So far he's really only gotten books that would sell no matter what he did with them. In the case of the GK's, the biggest thing holding that army back was the fact that it was so expensive and all metal and much of it direct order only. Widely available plastic kits tend to change that.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Elite wytches are terrible compared to trueborn.

They're a much more niche unit, the Trueborn are more universally useful true, but doesn't make them an auto-no-brainer.

Hardly anyone uses wytches as troops,

News to me, they appear fairly popular to me.

and you only use wracks as 30 point cheap scoring units - nothing more.

Also news to me, they are by far the toughest available DE troops unit and aren't exactly terrible in CC, no worse than Assault Marines, better against weenier enemies and super tough enemies in fact.

kabalites with a blaster are generally better - they at least have some form of armour save and some antitank.

A 5+sv over a 6+ means nothing. Against shooting it's almost never going to get used, and in CC the 5+sv isn't beating a 4+invul or 6+/4+FNP. The ranged AT is nice yes, but it's also fairly short ranged unless it's a dark lance that isn't moving (in which cost most other weapons probably aren't being used either).

Matt Ward's fluff writing makes me angry at the English language. I do not appreciate his blatant favoritism and fanboyish devotion to the Ultramarines ruining a codex called "Space Marines" (implying that there should be more than just Ultra spank contained in its pages). I wouldn't object to him writing a ton of Ultramarine-related fluff, but he seems incapable of writing it without belittling everyone who plays a chapter that isn't the Ultras, and he also made the Ultramarines flat out boring.

Well, more boring than they already were.

He doesn't seem to come up with new ideas with armies, he just takes one aspect and magnifies it to ridiculous levels. With the Ultras it was their super-best-bestiness (yes, ok Mat, they are the best. Now tell us WHY). With BA it was Blood-everything. With GK it was super-duper-mega-special incorruptibility. I haven't read Necrons yet, but I'm sure he's taken one aspect of their character and cranked it to 11, too.

I can't speak about his rules-writing, because I haven't played against any of his armies yet. I do like most of what's in codex SM, but I dearly miss the Chapter Traits...

As for why GW keeps giving him dexes to write: I get the feeling that he is FAST. How many codexes has he written? Back to back? Look at the release schedule they have been able to keep up for dexes since handing most everything over to Ward. He writes like a Rhesus monkey on crack cocaine, and I think GW likes being able to get dexes out quickly, especially with a new edition coming up. It's possible the other dex writers are working on the new edition, while Ward finishes up writing codexes for armies that 5th (and 4th) edition ignored.

Vaktathi - elite wytches accomplish no more than troop wytches do, and arent scoring. Compared to a cheap unit that can be anti tank, take the ever useful antihorde venom and are cheap - they are a no brainer. You're essentially arguing the GH arent a no brainer, because claws in a raider with a priest are a niche use.

All around trueborn have far far far higher utility than wytches.

As for not using wytches as troops - you dont see them spammed, as you need higher numbers to make them viable, usually need to spend a pain token haemi on them so when their vehicle explodes (not if) they dont all die like wet paper, etc. All this costs more points than 5 guys in a venom.

5+ vs 6+ with free FF means that you;re losing half the guys to an explosion, and also rolling fewer dice means you're less likely to match odds and take enough casualties to prompt a morale test (see: binomial approximation to the normal and increasing data points) meaning you run away less, on average. You're also protecting just the one important guy (blaster) vs essentially the unit, as wytches only work through weight of attacks. 18" is short ranged? He's got at least a 30" range (12" move plus disembark) when mounted, 24' when not. That isnt "short"

Maybe the US is vastly different (well, you do play silly point values by default - 2k is vastly different to 1500/1750) but you just dont see big wracks units. Real CC units you send in wytches, if you must, or you instead shoot to death with poison spam.

squidhills wrote:I can't speak about his rules-writing, because I haven't played against any of his armies yet.

So you don't actually have the codexes then?

nomotog wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:

nomotog wrote:Well look at it this way. Necrons needed big sweeping changes in fluff and rules, but mat ward was the only one with the gonads to do it.

He was the one given the assignment. That's not to say another author may not have done something similar, we'll never know, but attributing the massive changes in Necron fluff purely to Mat Ward's will to do so is rather silly.

Maybe I didn't put it right. They (GW) needed (maybe just wanted) massive changes to the necrons, so they called up there youngest freshest writer (MW) to do it. I mean if you wanted to completely rip apart a codex and rebuild it all from the ground up, who would you pick for the job.

A respected author? Rather than one people kind of expect to do some OTT fluff and weird units?

Durza wrote:

nomotog wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:

nomotog wrote:Well look at it this way. Necrons needed big sweeping changes in fluff and rules, but mat ward was the only one with the gonads to do it.

He was the one given the assignment. That's not to say another author may not have done something similar, we'll never know, but attributing the massive changes in Necron fluff purely to Mat Ward's will to do so is rather silly.

Maybe I didn't put it right. They (GW) needed (maybe just wanted) massive changes to the necrons, so they called up there youngest freshest writer (MW) to do it. I mean if you wanted to completely rip apart a codex and rebuild it all from the ground up, who would you pick for the job.

A respected author? Rather than one people kind of expect to do some OTT fluff and weird units?

We have Three choices with authors. Kelly, Ward and Cruddance. I want to say now, that I would GLADLY take Matt ward over Cruddance, any day of the weak. IMO, Cruddance is significantly worse than ward. I love Phil Kelly though.

All the others have written OTT fluff, and weird units. So, I would expect them in any book, regardless.


And another thing, it was entire TEAM that wrote the Necron Codex. So far, everything is looking pretty good as well.

Trouble is Kellys last 3 codex's have been broken, broken, slightly broken

Eldar exemplified everything that was broken about 4th edition: you could quite easily go through an entire game without killing a SINGLE eldar model, and hideous internal balance

Space Wolves broke 5th edition, with super cheap super effective troops (GH), stupid cheap missile LF, the best psychic defence in the game, on average, and some of the most over powered psychic powers in the game. Oh, and hideous internal balance.

DE - yawn, yet more light vehicle spam, poison on everything negating high T benefits and pretty poor internal balance.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Trouble is Kellys last 3 codex's have been broken, broken, slightly broken

Eldar exemplified everything that was broken about 4th edition: you could quite easily go through an entire game without killing a SINGLE eldar model, and hideous internal balance

Space Wolves broke 5th edition, with super cheap super effective troops (GH), stupid cheap missile LF, the best psychic defence in the game, on average, and some of the most over powered psychic powers in the game. Oh, and hideous internal balance.

DE - yawn, yet more light vehicle spam, poison on everything negating high T benefits and pretty poor internal balance.

I would say that IG broke 5th far more than Space Wolves did.

Don't get me wrong, SW isn't that well balanced. I just thing it's Better balanced than the IG codex.

To me, Cruddance wrote the biggest Game Breaker (IG) and the Worst book in 5th so far, Tyranids.

Yeah, 4E eldar were a stupid, stupid army. Though much of that blame lies with the 4E skimmer rules themselves, Eldar had wargear to counteract the few downsides of skimmers, and Holofields were just plain stupid. (hooray 1/36 chance to kill on a successful armor glance, as compared to the 1/6 kill chance on glance or 1/2 kill chance on pen for everyone else!)

I actually really like the Blood Angel book he wrote with the exception of awful stuff like tactical squads and scouts having no purpose (and storm ravens being a bit weak)

Yeah.. his naming conventions aren't that great and his fluff is average but the book itself has been fun to use. The real issue is the Grey Knight book

Better than Cruddace!

Sasori wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Trouble is Kellys last 3 codex's have been broken, broken, slightly broken

Eldar exemplified everything that was broken about 4th edition: you could quite easily go through an entire game without killing a SINGLE eldar model, and hideous internal balance

Space Wolves broke 5th edition, with super cheap super effective troops (GH), stupid cheap missile LF, the best psychic defence in the game, on average, and some of the most over powered psychic powers in the game. Oh, and hideous internal balance.

DE - yawn, yet more light vehicle spam, poison on everything negating high T benefits and pretty poor internal balance.

I would say that IG broke 5th far more than Space Wolves did.

Don't get me wrong, SW isn't that well balanced. I just thing it's Better balanced than the IG codex.

To me, Cruddance wrote the biggest Game Breaker (IG) and the Worst book in 5th so far, Tyranids.

How is IG "broken"?

Joey wrote:

Sasori wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Trouble is Kellys last 3 codex's have been broken, broken, slightly broken

Eldar exemplified everything that was broken about 4th edition: you could quite easily go through an entire game without killing a SINGLE eldar model, and hideous internal balance

Space Wolves broke 5th edition, with super cheap super effective troops (GH), stupid cheap missile LF, the best psychic defence in the game, on average, and some of the most over powered psychic powers in the game. Oh, and hideous internal balance.

DE - yawn, yet more light vehicle spam, poison on everything negating high T benefits and pretty poor internal balance.

I would say that IG broke 5th far more than Space Wolves did.

Don't get me wrong, SW isn't that well balanced. I just thing it's Better balanced than the IG codex.

To me, Cruddance wrote the biggest Game Breaker (IG) and the Worst book in 5th so far, Tyranids.

How is IG "broken"?

Is this a Joke?