Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

d-usa wrote:
I really think that this could easily be the case at GW right now. Matt Ward sitting at a table while trying to control the rest of his team while they are throwing stupid fluff and rules at each others head. He does the best he can, and then gets the heat for the stuff that makes it through.

Except again, he's made statements to the effect that shows he has a lot of control and little oversight over the project (the LR/DP transport capacity for example), has made ridiculous statements about fluff outside the codexes as well ("Ultramarines are the Best Marines, Really!" almost word for word in WD), and he's listed as the sole author in the books, despite there being a rather detailed list in each of who worked on it and did what.

Vaktathi wrote:

d-usa wrote:
I really think that this could easily be the case at GW right now. Matt Ward sitting at a table while trying to control the rest of his team while they are throwing stupid fluff and rules at each others head. He does the best he can, and then gets the heat for the stuff that makes it through.

Except again, he's made statements to the effect that shows he has a lot of control and little oversight over the project (the LR/DP transport capacity for example), has made ridiculous statements about fluff outside the codexes as well ("Ultramarines are the Best Marines, Really!" almost word for word in WD), and he's listed as the sole author in the books, despite there being a rather detailed list in each of who worked on it and did what.

Phil Kelly is listed as the sole author in his books.
Robin Cruddace is listed as the sole author in his books.

And quite frankly, every designer talks as if they have a lot of control and little oversight over their projects. Every designer makes ridiculous statements about fluff outside the codices as well, especially in White Dwarfs where the release is being promoted.

To continually insist that this is somehow clear evidence that Ward does his own thing, whilst feeding off the collective eRage is absurdity at its finest.

Kanluwen wrote:
Phil Kelly is listed as the sole author in his books.
Robin Cruddace is listed as the sole author in his books.

Yup, you're point? They're just as responsible for that content as Ward is for his.

And quite frankly, every designer talks as if they have a lot of control and little oversight over their projects.

right, because they *do* have a great degree of control.

Every designer makes ridiculous statements about fluff outside the codices as well, especially in White Dwarfs where the release is being promoted.


To continually insist that this is somehow clear evidence that Ward does his own thing, whilst feeding off the collective eRage is absurdity at its finest.

I've never seen Kelly or Ward make statements as ridiculous as Ward has, or flat out state that one particular faction is point blank "the best, better than all others". There's a difference between promotional "These guys are cool" and fanboyish statements like "these guys actually are *THE BEST*, no really, they are!"

Phantom - you do realise the DE book was released late AUgust 2008, right? As in, assuming it was the old format of 3 heats finishing in October (i really cant remember right now) the book had been out barely a month when the final was played.

Look after those dates. DE start to outperform massively every other book out there, and still to this day require FAR more comping (see SC GT racial comping, note how much less is needed for DoC) than Daemons or Vamps.

DoC simply carried on the VC broken fest which was finished up, in every meaning, by DE.

Vaktathi wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
Phil Kelly is listed as the sole author in his books.
Robin Cruddace is listed as the sole author in his books.

Yup, you're point? They're just as responsible for that content as Ward is for his.

It's "your point".

And while they're "just as responsible for that content as Ward is for his", you don't hear people constantly complaining about how Cruddace "ruined the game" by inventing three new types of Leman Russes. You don't see them complaining about how Kelly has "completely ruined Space Wolves!!!1!!" by adding a character named "Canis Wolfborn" into the Codex.

And quite frankly, every designer talks as if they have a lot of control and little oversight over their projects.

right, because they *do* have a great degree of control.

No, they don't. I don't know who the hell started this crap about "they have unlimited power over their project", but I can say with a fair degree of certainty that Ward and Cruddace are answering to the "Senior" Studio staff in the form of Phil Kelly, Jes Goodwin, and Jervis Johnson.

Now, if you were to say that Kelly, Goodwin, and Johnson have "unlimited power over their projects"...you just might be correct, as Ward seems to follow Johnson's lead for the most part.

Every designer makes ridiculous statements about fluff outside the codices as well, especially in White Dwarfs where the release is being promoted.


To continually insist that this is somehow clear evidence that Ward does his own thing, whilst feeding off the collective eRage is absurdity at its finest.

I've never seen Kelly or Ward make statements as ridiculous as Ward has, or flat out state that one particular faction is point blank "the best, better than all others". There's a difference between promotional "These guys are cool" and fanboyish statements like "these guys actually are *THE BEST*, no really, they are!"

Firstly, they don't let Cruddace talk much. And Kelly's been around long enough to avoid the pitfalls that Ward's been tripping into.

If you look back in the day, Kelly did say many things like Ward says--particularly when it comes to his favorite armies.

Every fanboy will mentally jack off support to his favorite when he can do so. Thing is they ought to stop them by explaining what they are doing wrong. They may be find to let ward live out his "fanboy working for his IP" phase but he does a good deal of fething up that needs to stop.

Yes the fanboys should be given a chance but they should be kept on a leash when they might screw something up. a tight leash.

All the problems here could have been avoided had they kept him on a tight leash until he wore himself out and couldn't do much harm as he tried to make his favorites even better.

Course his fanboy side is actively being encouraged because it plays into the mentality of the 9 year olds GW is targeting.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Phantom - you do realise the DE book was released late AUgust 2008, right? As in, assuming it was the old format of 3 heats finishing in October (i really cant remember right now) the book had been out barely a month when the final was played.

Look after those dates. DE start to outperform massively every other book out there, and still to this day require FAR more comping (see SC GT racial comping, note how much less is needed for DoC) than Daemons or Vamps.

DoC simply carried on the VC broken fest which was finished up, in every meaning, by DE.

Dutch GT 2009:

Winner: Chaos Demons
4 Chaos Demons lists in the top 10
3 VC lists in the top 10
2 DE lists in the top 10

Again, I'm not arguing that VC and DE weren't a bit overpowered in 7th Ed, but you really can't compare them with CD. You are the only person I ever even heard of saying that DE where more overpowered than CD...

Kanluwen wrote:
It's "your point".

Right, what was the point of reiterating it back to me?

And while they're "just as responsible for that content as Ward is for his", you don't hear people constantly complaining about how Cruddace "ruined the game" by inventing three new types of Leman Russes.

he invented two (punisher and eradicator), that are literally just main weapon swaps (one a slight-rejigging of an already existing variant they didn't want to include a different profile for since it was obsolete primarily), not anything wildly outlandish that was entirely out of left field like the Stormraven.

The new IG units were pulled either from Epic, Forgeworld, older codecies, are weapon swaps on existing units, aside from basically the Armored Sentinel.

You don't see them complaining about how Kelly has "completely ruined Space Wolves!!!1!!" by adding a character named "Canis Wolfborn" into the Codex.

I certainly have seen complaints about Kelly's silly handling of Space Wolves and have made them myself, they're fairly common actually (just do a search and you'll find a couple in the last month I believe), but for Kelly the difference is that it's pretty much his only fluff flub book so far, whereas with Ward it's been pretty constant.

No, they don't. I don't know who the hell started this crap about "they have unlimited power over their project", but I can say with a fair degree of certainty that Ward and Cruddace are answering to the "Senior" Studio staff in the form of Phil Kelly, Jes Goodwin, and Jervis Johnson.

Nobody said unlimited, but they do have a fair degree of control and freedom, enough that they didn't catch the Land raider and drop pod capacity changes until it was too late to change and told Ward to change it back in following books by his own admission (I believe at GDUK2009?)

Firstly, they don't let Cruddace talk much.

They don't let or he just doesn't participate? That's entirely up to conjecture, however the fact remains he has yet to make any ridiculously fanboyish statements the way Ward has, at least that I'm aware of.

And Kelly's been around long enough to avoid the pitfalls that Ward's been tripping into.

And again, does not make the same fanboyish statements the way Ward has.

If you look back in the day, Kelly did say many things like Ward says--particularly when it comes to his favorite armies.

It's possible I guess, i just don't recall any or have any I can look up right here. I've posted before however the passage of Ward basically fan-servicing himself to the Ultramarines point blank stating that "Yes, Really, Ultramarines are the best Space Marines in the Galaxy!" or "it's so awesome your opponent will want to double check its rules!". I don't recall Phil Kelly making such statements, though I'll admit i may be unaware of all of his WD content as I own relatively few WD's (only a couple dozen) but from what I do see it's not as silly as Ward's.

Do any of you guys think that if Frank Herbert had been a 40k writer, that it would be so much better and cleaner? I have always thought this. It would eliminate the need for "writers" who need quotation marks (I'm look at you, Cruddace and Ward) and we could get some consistent background? I feel if there was a single especially talented writer who could have 100% of his work official canon and the other GW/BL write their stories using that single canonic storyline as their base...40k would be a lot more successful than it is.

Wishful thinking and fanciful thought, I know, but It's just something that popped into my head that I thought I'd share.

GW let's Ward run wild. He exerts power and influence well above his official position and is pretty much the unofficial CEO of games workshop

Er, I don't think that's really true leonard.

leonard wrote:GW let's Ward run wild. He exerts power and influence well above his official position and it pretty much the unofficial CEO of games workshop

Every post Leonard has made so far, has been completely moronic and devoid of any substance, what so ever.

Just ignore him.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

CpatTom wrote:You presented your opinion with an argument. One that was thoughtfully constructed, and on a subject that rarely ever receives any sort of critical interpretation.

Your thought out and non-reactionary response gives me hope in humanity.

Why thank you. Although now I feel compelled to do something to relieve the pressure of being your hope for humanity by childishly laughing at this Leonard character Sasori was so kind to point out to me.

Sasori wrote:Every post Leonard has made so far, has been completely moronic and devoid of any substance, what so ever.
Just ignore him.

Hahahahaha , Leonard, silly momo.

On subject, has anyone read the Necron stuff yet, and can give some insight into, what I'm going to go out onto a limb here and conjecture, are based on some past archetypes, but limited in presentation?

Sasori wrote:Every post Leonard has made so far, has been completely moronic and devoid of any substance, what so ever.

Just ignore him.

Lol all 15 of them?

Is this the best use of everyones time? Complaining about Matt Ward? It seems nearly constant. Who cares about the fluff if the rules are ok? Does it really matter that much??

The Grundel wrote:Is this the best use of everyones time? Complaining about Matt Ward? It seems nearly constant. Who cares about the fluff if the rules are ok? Does it really matter that much??

Primarily because this game, and Games Workshop, wouldn't exist without the fluff, there are plenty of other, better designed rules systems out there with excellent mini's. Few have fluff as awesome as 40k's. GW's biggest asset (according to their own admission) is their IP.

The only reason 40k so much as caught a mere moment of my attention is the fluff.

So... Yes, to me the fluff of 40k does matter.

Gah, and reading through the necron book it's as if Mat Ward decided to retcon the entirety of the Necron's Battlefleet Gothic nature as well. Necrons have the fastest fleet capabilities of anyone, yet Ward writes of their ships as slow vessels practically without interstellar capability...

Just play the game. If you dont like his rules,, dont play the friggen army. Simple

ParatrooperSimon wrote:Just play the game. If you dont like his rules,, dont play the friggen army. Simple

I'm not sure if you missed all 6 pages of discussion by some amazing chance or just ignored it, but that's not the issue.
Background is the issue being discussed, not the bloody rules. Arguably its also far more important, because if its no longer as captivating, then people just move onto systems with better rules, because lets face it the ones we have aren't exactly good.
In fact if all your for is the rule systems I find it strange that you chose this game based on that fact

Heres just my 2 cents on matt ward (after talking to everyone or nearly everyone at my local hobby store).

His fluff is ridiculous. (which is important for me) I tried to get into warmachine but the fluff just turned me off and i never touch those models i have. So 40k has kept me around because of fluff. I dont want to lose that too.

His rules are alright, however i do have a problem with exploits to the army lists, i find it very easy to write cheese/spammy lists with wards codexes.

Necrons (which i read through the other day at my local store) Actually have very balanced rules and the units themselves are not horridly ridiculous. But then you look at the points values. Necron warrior for 13 points? that still has gauss? say goodbye to your vehicles. And for an eldar player, that is a very essential component to my army.

Lastly Phil Kelly is the best codex author imo for 40k. Space wolves pushes it a bit, but Eldar, Dark Eldar, and Orks are 3 armies that have older books (orks and eldar anyways), but are still competitive imo, have balanced rules, and benefit more from making well rounded lists. i personally believe thats what any game should strive for, to have an effective balance of army composition and effectiveness on the table.

Oh and concerning whfb and ward, the magic phase is all his fault from what i can tell (he has an obsession with all things random in a game which i hate prioritising that) you can win a game with some good magic rolls whcih imo should never happen in a game. The reliance on dice for everything is even more apparent in wards work in lotr strategy battle game and war of the ring (which i also play both). All in all, matt ward wants to make gws games more like monopoly instead of chess, good rolls instead of good strategy, positioning, and board control.

Vaktathi wrote:Gah, and reading through the necron book it's as if Mat Ward decided to retcon the entirety of the Necron's Battlefleet Gothic nature as well. Necrons have the fastest fleet capabilities of anyone, yet Ward writes of their ships as slow vessels practically without interstellar capability...

Truth be told?

I'm okay with that. Previously, they just had a bit...too much if that makes any sense. The ability to somehow 'jump' right to Mars, bypassing all the defenses?

That's a deus ex machina if I've ever seen one.

Deadlytoaster wrote:
Lastly Phil Kelly is the best codex author imo for 40k. Space wolves pushes it a bit, but Eldar, Dark Eldar, and Orks are 3 armies that have older books (orks and eldar anyways), but are still competitive imo, have balanced rules, and benefit more from making well rounded lists. i personally believe thats what any game should strive for, to have an effective balance of army composition and effectiveness on the table.

Wait, the Dark Eldar Codex is "old"?

Just read the new codex(and played a game against it with my GKs)

1) yes, the fluff changed. But, as long as you arn't afraid of change, the fluff is really good.

2) VERY powerful rules, but balanced. I only lost the game by 2 Kill points and I had some sub-par rolling. Tesla is dangerous!

im2randomghgh wrote:Do any of you guys think that if Frank Herbert had been a 40k writer, that it would be so much better and cleaner? I have always thought this. It would eliminate the need for "writers" who need quotation marks (I'm look at you, Cruddace and Ward) and we could get some consistent background? I feel if there was a single especially talented writer who could have 100% of his work official canon and the other GW/BL write their stories using that single canonic storyline as their base...40k would be a lot more successful than it is.

Wishful thinking and fanciful thought, I know, but It's just something that popped into my head that I thought I'd share.

Considering how much 40k already borrows from Dune I don't think he'd be too happy
Having one writer take over the entire universe would be great, but that's honestly something that had to happen by 2nd edition. If someone were to write the entire universe all by his/her self now, a lot of people would be unhappy since some aspect of the fluff had been invalidated.

Deadlytoaster wrote:Lastly Phil Kelly is the best codex author imo for 40k. Space wolves pushes it a bit, but Eldar, Dark Eldar, and Orks are 3 armies that have older books (orks and eldar anyways), but are still competitive imo, have balanced rules, and benefit more from making well rounded lists. i personally believe thats what any game should strive for, to have an effective balance of army composition and effectiveness on the table.

The only reason that Eldar have been competitive can be summed up in the form of 'Eldrad'. The Eldar's access to Psychic powers through him are the only thing that is keeping them afloat competitively, and the effectiveness that that is having is decreasing due to the amount of psychic defence (e.g: Psychic hoods) that are floating around. So in a way, Eldar are sinking competitively. However, I would agree with you that out of Ward, Cruddace and Kelly, Kelly is the best Codex writer. However, despite all of the hate for Mat Ward, I still prefer his Codexes over Robin Cruddace, I think Cruddace should stick to WHFB, and Ward should stick to 40k.

Kanluwen wrote:
Truth be told?

I'm okay with that. Previously, they just had a bit...too much if that makes any sense. The ability to somehow 'jump' right to Mars, bypassing all the defenses?

That's a deus ex machina if I've ever seen one.

For a race 60 Million years old who fought and defeated enemies who shaped the universe and destroyed literal gods, whose surviving enemies still bear the scars of war in an age when dinosaurs roamed the earth, that's much less of a stretch than most of the Space Marine fluff we get these days. A bit silly perhaps, but certainly not on anything like the level of single Space Marine chapters destroying entire systems worth of enemy forces by themselves when outnumbered billions to one and the like. It's silly that the entire nature of their space fleet, literally what defined it (incredible speed) needed to be retconned. It feels more like, if anything, Ward simply hasn't ever read any of the BFG stuff, which, given his position, is rather silly.

I liked the Old necron fluff better, now they are more like any other 40k race and not as mystical as before.
Can se that people like the new fluff but I personally like the old so much more

Vaktathi wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
Truth be told?

I'm okay with that. Previously, they just had a bit...too much if that makes any sense. The ability to somehow 'jump' right to Mars, bypassing all the defenses?

That's a deus ex machina if I've ever seen one.

For a race 60 Million years old who fought and defeated enemies who shaped the universe and destroyed literal gods, whose surviving enemies still bear the scars of war in an age when dinosaurs roamed the earth, that's much less of a stretch than most of the Space Marine fluff we get these days.

You mean a race that before the C'Tan became part of the picture was forced to use stasis and "slow-burning torch ships" to colonize systems?

It's not that big of a stretch.

A bit silly perhaps, but certainly not on anything like the level of single Space Marine chapters destroying entire systems worth of enemy forces by themselves when outnumbered billions to one and the like.

I'm blanking on where anything like this has happened, but I don't read the Codex fluff but once or twice. Where was this?

It's silly that the entire nature of their space fleet, literally what defined it (incredible speed) needed to be retconned. It feels more like, if anything, Ward simply hasn't ever read any of the BFG stuff, which, given his position, is rather silly.

Does it say that this is the case for every ship in the Codex?

Because from what I recall, the ships that did the whole 'FTL' thing were the Shroud class light cruisers. There was a one-liner in the previous Necron codex, however, about how the ships were actually able to "Phase Out" when they suffered damage if they chose to disengage.