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What? No. I've not even heard anyone mention IG being broken, ever.

Joey wrote:What? No. I've not even heard anyone mention IG being broken, ever.

They are.

Mostly thanks to the Absurdly cheap point values on just about everything in the codex.

The best example, would be to look at the points cost for a Vendetta, which is probably one of the worst offenders in the codex.

One over powered (and grossly expensive £-wise) does not make the codex OP.
The "bread and butter" of IG, platoons, veterans and Leman-Russes aren't particularly OP.

How are IG broken as a codex?

Too many no brainers. Veterans with triple melta for next to no points. Cheap Chimera. Vendetta, Manticore and Hydra.

Joey wrote:One over powered (and grossly expensive £-wise) does not make the codex OP.
The "bread and butter" of IG, platoons, veterans and Leman-Russes aren't particularly OP.

I only gave you the Vendetta as single example. There are plenty more in the codex.

If you really want to read into it, just do a search on the internet. There are Plenty Of threads on the subject matter.

You know....after seeing many of Mat wards creations, Im not completely pissed at the guy. Honestly. He comes up with some pretty stupid stuff for sure, and I hate it just as much as the next person, but that being said I commend him for trying to break the
mold of the same old story. I mean 40K has such a great back story it doesn't need alot of changing, but once in awhile it's nice to see some changes.

Example- new Crons. I really didnt wanna see them become tomb kings in space, I really like the old kind of grim reaper feel. The one thing I dont mind is that at least Ward attemped to give some form of back story
to crons, rather than mindless space robots. I think it would have been cooler to reshape the old fluff a bit more, but that's ok. Im not afraid of change.

Only thing about Mat Ward that really turned me off recently was this, posted on the GW website. It was an article he wrote about his impressions on the new crons.

Because of their programming, the Necron race must attempt to rebuild the glorious Necron Dynasties and reclaim the galaxy (the galaxy that they once tore apart, but we won't go into that just yet). However, they are also very pragmatic, which means that on occasion, a Necron Overlord will have to agree to an alliance with another race to ensure victory or survival - an utterly abhorrent situation, but one of necessity. Besides, when all things are considered, they can always attack their allies at a later date. Necrons are immortal, their foes (and necessary allies) are not.

It was an obvious attempt to cover his past fluff abuse of the BA alliance. I don't mind if someone writes something that is a little dumb, but at least have the stones to admit to the community that didn't like it that you
may have went a bit overboard.

But all in all, we will see if things get better in the future.

IG not broken? ... Uhmmmm...
... About GK... yes... you can pack 6 cheap scoring units ... just like IG (and just like wolves IMHO)...
And I think that SW are much more limited... you are almost always spamming MSU with a few spicy adds like long fangs or thunderwolves...
Grey knights offer you very different builds: Pallies, Purifier spam, inquisitorial army, footslogging or teleported termies and more... I think it's a greater variety... in addition there isn't a single choice in the dex that do not find a place somewhere (apart from brother-captains... I still do not understand them).
BA are the same... MSU, tank spam, DoA...
I do not find all this variety in other dexes... this is why I think that Ward's codices are actually pretty good... obviously there are OTT choices somewhere (every codex have one or two i think) but overall they seem balanced to me... Obviously this is my humble opinion

P.s. I wasn't sarcastic in my previous comment... I actually try not to use psyfleman because they are a little bit OTT (and not so much fun IMHO)

IG aren't broken. I'll admit they're not VERY far off, having absurdly cheap vehicles and all, but they haven't quite gotten to the point where railguns are insufficient for clearing away armour.

daedalus wrote:

squidhills wrote:I can't speak about his rules-writing, because I haven't played against any of his armies yet.

So you don't actually have the codexes then?

I don't buy codexes for armies I don't own. I haven't got that kind of money. I have looked through the fluff in my friends' codexes, and I find it hateful. The rules however, I'm not as good at deciphering without running into them on the table. for example, I still think IG Stormtroopers are a good idea, because I haven't used them in the new rules.

im2randomghgh wrote:IG aren't broken. I'll admit they're not VERY far off, having absurdly cheap vehicles and all, but they haven't quite gotten to the point where railguns are insufficient for clearing away armour.

Feel free to read the first few posts of this thread http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/408024.page

If after that, you still feel that they aren't broken, please post your reasoning in that thread.

Although I'm not a Space Marine player (and have never purchased any Codex Mentioning them), I think the Matt Ward hate is a bit misplaced. After reading the White Dwarf about the Necron's new fluff, I was a little perturbed on the C'tan switch, but I got over it. I liked the fluff about the Bone Worlds where the Flayed Ones run amok and try devouring rotten flesh, specifically about the overlord there is nothing but a head.

Imagine modeling a Overlord modeled from a servo skull? Pure hilarity.

I think people who 'hate' Matt Ward should bounce to Robin Cruddace.

Wth Cruddace; you can give a Infantry Squad Sergeant a power weapon but not a las gun?! Heresy! Slay him!

squidhills wrote:

daedalus wrote:

squidhills wrote:I can't speak about his rules-writing, because I haven't played against any of his armies yet.

So you don't actually have the codexes then?

I don't buy codexes for armies I don't own. I haven't got that kind of money. I have looked through the fluff in my friends' codexes, and I find it hateful. The rules however, I'm not as good at deciphering without running into them on the table. for example, I still think IG Stormtroopers are a good idea, because I haven't used them in the new rules.

Well, that's honest. I can respect that.

I guess fluff 'quality' really just comes down to being a matter of expectations. I'm less horrified by the fluff because I feel it's there to pad the book and 'justify' some of the rules. For me, the fluff is an (not necessarily unbiased) account of things that happened. I expect there to be exaggeration involved, for one, because they don't have 500+ pages to build up to events and every subtle nuance of a character's personality, and for another, because it's the filler text for a game I play. When I played MtG 500 years ago, I didn't read cards for the two-liners at the bottom of each card. They were there, they sometimes made sense, they were sometimes stupid, but it was cool because I didn't expect it to be Dostoyevsky, Lovecraft, or even that guy that wrote the Goosebump novels all the kids read 15 years ago.

I mean, the 40k premise is a poorly cobbled together Frankenstein of Heinrich, Giger, Tolkien, Christianity, and a handful of sources of traditional mythology. I really think that people expect too much out of it.

And Stormtroopers ARE awesome. Anyone trying to convince you differently doesn't have your best interests at heart.

His fluff is indeed terrible, it's not "bandwagon" to say it.

Harriticus wrote:His fluff is indeed terrible, it's not "bandwagon" to say it.

It's not that bad...

Harriticus wrote:His fluff is indeed terrible, it's not "bandwagon" to say it.

Actually yeah. It is.

I'm willing to hazard a guess, with a 90% certainty rate, that most of the people complaining about his stuff haven't read any of it. It's by no means top notch--but it's nowhere near the ridiculous level of bad that it gets painted as.

The hyperbole surrounding his codices is, quite frankly, churlish pettiness and brought about by either a complete lack of contextual knowledge or someone looking at it through rose-tinted glasses.

I think its gained bandwagon status because people jump to the thought of hitler murdering a kitten while Vader jacks off to it(that kind of horrible evil); and that wouldn't be so if people were more descriptive. Of course some are VERY descriptive and only get called bandwaggon jumpers all the same.

In the defense of people that have not read his fluff directly but read it when it was posted to 40k wiki or lexicanum; it is pretty impossible, unthinkable, ridiculous(by 40k standards) and in some cases its almost a meme. I think he has 4 memes made from his fluff by now; its that laughable.

Varrick wrote:
In the defense of people that have not read his fluff directly but read it when it was posted to 40k wiki or lexicanum; it is pretty impossible, unthinkable, ridiculous(by 40k standards) and in some cases its almost a meme. I think he has 4 memes made from his fluff by now; its that laughable.

Which is exactly the problem. Lexicanum or 40kwiki generally do not actually post the exact text. They post the author of the page's perception of the text.

Lexicanum or 40k Wiki, like Wikipedia proper, should never be considered as a source. It's more of a reference point to find a source.

Sasori wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:IG aren't broken. I'll admit they're not VERY far off, having absurdly cheap vehicles and all, but they haven't quite gotten to the point where railguns are insufficient for clearing away armour.

Feel free to read the first few posts of this thread http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/408024.page

If after that, you still feel that they aren't broken, please post your reasoning in that thread.

They are perfectly beatable by any army with untailored lists.

GK, SW, Orks and a few others are stronger than them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

StormForged wrote:Although I'm not a Space Marine player (and have never purchased any Codex Mentioning them), I think the Matt Ward hate is a bit misplaced. After reading the White Dwarf about the Necron's new fluff, I was a little perturbed on the C'tan switch, but I got over it. I liked the fluff about the Bone Worlds where the Flayed Ones run amok and try devouring rotten flesh, specifically about the overlord there is nothing but a head.

Imagine modeling a Overlord modeled from a servo skull? Pure hilarity.

I think people who 'hate' Matt Ward should bounce to Robin Cruddace.

Wth Cruddace; you can give a Infantry Squad Sergeant a power weapon but not a las gun?! Heresy! Slay him!

Matt Ward's fluff is terrible, though based on what I have heard from Necrons, it seems he has actually done a decent backstory, though I am betting that the section of specific battles for necrons will be facepalm worthy.

BTW, totally random, has anyone else ever thought that the IG would wipe the galaxy if they had the lasguns from Dune instead? Cuz they're basically lances.

Disclaimer: I dislike Matt Ward's writing, in respect to rules, fluff, and style. I don't think his rules are innovative, or well-designed, or elegant. I don't think that his contributions to the fluff are up to par with those of other writers. I don't think that his writing style is polished, mature, or even a good fit with other works in the 40K universe. =

Here's why he gets to write the books:

You have to assign a writer to a codex which will probably sell anyway (Space Marines, Blood Angels, Grey Knights, Necrons).

You can give it to someone who will do a good job, write some interesting rules, reinforce the background, tell some cool stories, and probably take serious time and effort to do it.

or

You can give it to Matt Ward, who will throw a lot of "interesting" ideas and wacky crap into a book, probably in half the time and half the cost.

It will sell the same either way.

Might was well let the hyper-active fanboy churn that one out. Give the codex which might need some actual skill and talent to someone else.

To put it bluntly:

We don't actually know what parts of the fluff are Ward's contributions or those of the other members of the design team. For all we know, it's Cruddace coming up with the stupid crap and Ward taking the heat for it because his name is on the book's front page.

Kanluwen wrote:To put it bluntly:

We don't actually know what parts of the fluff are Ward's contributions or those of the other members of the design team. For all we know, it's Cruddace coming up with the stupid crap and Ward taking the heat for it because his name is on the book's front page.

Exactly. There'in lies the problem. Everything that gets written goes through Matt Ward and get's his mark. So regardless if he wrote it, he is the ultimate say if something gets published or gets cut.

Actually no. He does not get "ultimate say" if something gets published or cuts.

From what I've been privy to, the studio is...fairly democratic, in that designers can be voted down or voted up.

Things also might just slip through the cracks or be turned in too late for final revisions to be made.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Void Dragon - I suggest you actually read the rumour threads, as nothing you have stated as "fact" about Necron fluff is true. It really isnt.

Then please by all means point out what I said that is false.

Kanluwen wrote:Actually yeah. It is.

I'm willing to hazard a guess, with a 90% certainty rate, that most of the people complaining about his stuff haven't read any of it. It's by no means top notch--but it's nowhere near the ridiculous level of bad that it gets painted as.

The hyperbole surrounding his codices is, quite frankly, churlish pettiness and brought about by either a complete lack of contextual knowledge or someone looking at it through rose-tinted glasses.

Or you know, people could have read it, and disliked it.

Is it as bad as places like 1d4chan would lead you to think? Probably not, the Blood Angel/Necron "alliance" in particular was the most overblown thing ever.

But is some of it bad? I'd definitely say a very good portion of the fluff is, from some subtle alterations in the Space Marines codex for the sake of his fanboyism (Naming Tigurius as rather than one of the most powerful psykers in the Imperium, as the outright strongest if he indeed contacted the Hive Mind), to Draigo holding down Mortarion like his kid brother.

He's not the worst writer I've ever seen, but he is certainly not good, IMHO.

Though, I'll admit to having some weird fondness for the fluff in his Blood Angels codex.

And while you can say "Ward is not the only one writing the codex," well... Can you point us to someone else we can look at and place the blame on them? Or really, what makes you say he is not entirely responsible for the actual writing of the fluff?

The only one I know of that has been confirmed to be not just Ward's work is apparently the Necron codex, him asking for help on writing the fluff from someone else on the design team.

Believe me when I say I try not to hold animosity against Ward, I really, sincerely do, since I do get the impression that he is trying is hardest and is amazed to be doing what he does, and loves it. If nothing else, he has the enthusiasm. But that also doesn't mean that all protests against something he seems to be responsible for should be muffled down by other posters and shouts of "WHINER" and "GET OFF THE WARD HATEWAGON," as though it's stupid to feel some negative emotional response towards what is written in the codex. But by that same brand of logic, the same should be done to those who praise and enjoy what Ward does (And such people do indeed exist, and I can't fault them, since I'll readily admit he makes varied, fun to play codices with, as far as my own admittedly limited understanding tells me, pretty balanced crunch) should get the same reaction.

This is a message board, and as such negative opinions, if they are presented from a rational point of view, should be no more frowned upon than positive opinions are, discussions would be incredibly boring here without some manner of conflict between opinions.

I'm not really saying this to you in particular, only voicing my opinion on a practice I've noticed distressingly often on messageboards.

I'd love to point you towards whoever writes the things--but it is no longer actually stated who the 'mains' are, as we saw on Codex: Dark Angels.

What I can tell you, confidently, is that it is not a single person doing these things. They have people writing the rules, others writing the fluff, and a team that sees all of them together and puts it into practice.

I will say this though. I have no problems with people articulately putting forward what they do not like about Matt Ward's work. What I have problems with is the constant whining that he needs to be fired. We have a rule about "no personal attacks" here at Dakka, and doing things like calling him names is stepping over that line.

I'll admit, when it comes to certain Black Library authors--I regularly step over that line. I'm personally trying to cut back--and I'd suggest others do the same on Ward. Critique the writings, not the writers.

Kanluwen wrote:Actually no. He does not get "ultimate say" if something gets published or cuts.

From what I've been privy to, the studio is...fairly democratic, in that designers can be voted down or voted up.

Things also might just slip through the cracks or be turned in too late for final revisions to be made.

What, you mean, almost like in the way an actual company would handle things? That almost makes sense.

I swear, people must actually think GW is a group of 4 people operating out of one of the resident rooms of an asylum.

Void__Dragon wrote:
Believe me when I say I try not to hold animosity against Ward, I really, sincerely do, since I do get the impression that he is trying is hardest and is amazed to be doing what he does, and loves it. If nothing else, he has the enthusiasm. But that also doesn't mean that all protests against something he seems to be responsible for should be muffled down by other posters and shouts of "WHINER" and "GET OFF THE WARD HATEWAGON," as though it's stupid to feel some negative emotional response towards what is written in the codex. But by that same brand of logic, the same should be done to those who praise and enjoy what Ward does (And such people do indeed exist, and I can't fault them, since I'll readily admit he makes varied, fun to play codices with, as far as my own admittedly limited understanding tells me, pretty balanced crunch) should get the same reaction.

Depends, is "incessant fatigue" an emotion? That's what I felt when the GK codex came out. There was actually about a two week period after that in which that I stopped visiting Dakka outside of the Mosh Pit just because the constant whining about him was that bad. Yes. Whining. It's a fething game, and "you people" are like an echo chamber. You actually DO get stuck on Ward, for some completely uncomprehendable reason, and you can't let it go. I could search Dakka, right now, and find at least one thread a day where someone whines about him. Matter of fact, I just did. I could go back as far as October 20th. At least one thread a day, someone mentions him in a negative light. THE WARD HATEWAGON is real, and the only reason why you can't see it is because you're laying in the back of it with your eyes closed.

This is a message board, and as such negative opinions, if they are presented from a rational point of view, should be no more frowned upon than positive opinions are, discussions would be incredibly boring here without some manner of conflict between opinions.

I'm not really saying this to you in particular, only voicing my opinion on a practice I've noticed distressingly often on messageboards.

Discussions don't HAVE to have conflict. They really don't. The purpose of a discussion can also be to inform.

Da Butcha wrote:

You can give it to Matt Ward, who will throw a lot of "interesting" ideas and wacky crap into a book, probably in half the time and half the cost.

Counterpoint: JotWW, Doom of Malanti, Al-Rahem's platoon with valkyries, Deff Rollas

All screwball rules scenarios, some handled by GW after the fact, some not. All conjured up by Cruddace and Kelly. And this a non-exhaustive least I came up with off the top of my head. I'm SURE I could come up with at least 20 or 30 examples spending even a few minutes cruising through YMDC.

I like the "interesting" ideas, as painful as they make the game sometimes. The stuff you can do with the Brotherhood Champion is REALLY cool, and makes sense. Servoskulls are cool. Playable armies that only have 10 models are cool.

This is stuff that's not been done before. If they can't put new stuff in the game because it's too 'wacky', then why produce new material? It sounds to me like you would be a lot happier if you found a group that was still playing 4th edition and you pretended that 5th never came out.

Kanluwen wrote:

Harriticus wrote:His fluff is indeed terrible, it's not "bandwagon" to say it.

Actually yeah. It is.

I'm willing to hazard a guess, with a 90% certainty rate, that most of the people complaining about his stuff haven't read any of it. It's by no means top notch--but it's nowhere near the ridiculous level of bad that it gets painted as.

The hyperbole surrounding his codices is, quite frankly, churlish pettiness and brought about by either a complete lack of contextual knowledge or someone looking at it through rose-tinted glasses.

I have all codices written by Matt Ward and all codices for every army past 3rd edition for that matter, there is a lot of ground to criticize Ward on regarding the fluff he writes. It's easily the lowest quality. His biggest problem is while all the codices hype their faction to be unstoppable (save perhaps Eldar/Dark Eldar) Ward takes it to the extreme and warps the entire 40k setting to fit these rather ridiculous scenarios in a negative direction for the pre-establish grimdark setting. But how the Necrons could have been given more character without removing everything they were is a very lengthy topic indeed. There's also the issue of making blanket statements that interfere with the greater setting, such as "all Space Marines want to be Ultramarines". This is simply a ridiculous statements that interferes with the entire persona of most pre-established Space Marine forces such as Space Wolves, Salamanders, Imperial Fists, Blood Angels, etc.. who clearly have no desire to be Ultramarines and are very proud of their heritage. Moreover, the ridiculous escapades of Draigo basically rampaging around the Warp at will doing things like making Daemon Primarchs his playthings and turning the Grey Knights into a nigh-unstoppable force from a fluff perspective also is a fine example of Ward screwing with the established setting just to hype his own codex. Yes, all codex's hype their armies immensely but Ward takes it a step further.

Kanluwen wrote:I'd love to point you towards whoever writes the things--but it is no longer actually stated who the 'mains' are, as we saw on Codex: Dark Angels.

What I can tell you, confidently, is that it is not a single person doing these things. They have people writing the rules, others writing the fluff, and a team that sees all of them together and puts it into practice.

I will say this though. I have no problems with people articulately putting forward what they do not like about Matt Ward's work. What I have problems with is the constant whining that he needs to be fired. We have a rule about "no personal attacks" here at Dakka, and doing things like calling him names is stepping over that line.

I'll admit, when it comes to certain Black Library authors--I regularly step over that line. I'm personally trying to cut back--and I'd suggest others do the same on Ward. Critique the writings, not the writers.

That's true, looking at a lot of old codices I have noticed that there used to be more than just a single person's name put on the codex. It wouldn't really surprise me if Ward gets blamed for a lot of things he didn't do. Actually, I can think of at least one thing he does get blamed for, the whole "Tigurius makes contact with the Hive Mind" thing, which was in the 4th edition codex.

I try to refrain from making personal attacks on the character of the writer (Though like you, I will admit I've done so in the past here), or on something regarding them in real life (The jab at GW going bankrupt was a joke, lol). I try to make only critique of the work itself, and will try to keep in mind in the future that not everything in the codices is written or conceived of by Ward.

daedalus wrote:Depends, is "incessant fatigue" an emotion? That's what I felt when the GK codex came out. There was actually about a two week period after that in which that I stopped visiting Dakka outside of the Mosh Pit just because the constant whining about him was that bad. Yes. Whining. It's a fething game, and "you people" are like an echo chamber. You actually DO get stuck on Ward, for some completely uncomprehendable reason, and you can't let it go. I could search Dakka, right now, and find at least one thread a day where someone whines about him. Matter of fact, I just did. I could go back as far as October 20th. At least one thread a day, someone mentions him in a negative light. THE WARD HATEWAGON is real, and the only reason why you can't see it is because you're laying in the back of it with your eyes closed.

I'm not entirely sure why you think you can take a condescending tone on someone and make pseudo-personal attacks regarding them taking a (Implied by you) nonsensical emotional investment in something, while yourself getting worked up and emotional against a fellow poster who hadn't made a single personal attack against you. Oh, and apparently you also took a sabbatical from DakkaDakka because you grew stressed from the "whining". One could easily ask you to stop becoming whining about people whining about Ward, and to not be so emotionally invested in a forum on the internet. I on the other hand am completely calm, and am more self-aware about my bouts of nerdrage when they arise (And they do indeed arise) than you seem to believe.

Also, "you people"? Lolwut?

I also find it mildly amusing you immediately associate me with all whiners of Ward, when I try to only approach his work (If it indeed is his work) from a rational point of view, and stated why I don't like it. Do note I only do this regarding the fluff, since not only do I find nothing wrong with the gameplay aspects of his codices, I'm frankly unqualified to make a verdict on it.

I am not part of the "Ward Hatewagon," if you interpeted my words before to mean that I believe no such thing exists, you were incorrect to do so. People do hear about what Ward has allegedly done and whine about it, without reading the codex and fairly oftentimes getting their facts or context wrong. I am not one of those people. I have read every single Ward codex released in 40k (Except the Sisters codex and, obviously, the Necron codex), from front to back, and formed an opinion on it.

Is some of the hate overblown? Oh, absolutely, you will get no argument from me regarding that. I am not trying to justify the people who have an ill-informed opinion on Ward and trash his name or his work with no regard for eloquence or rational thought, especially when such people's sources include sites like 1d4chan. But likewise, IMO, there is a lack of quality regarding some of the fluff within his codices. That you seem to be of some laughable impression that I am not allowed to voice my opinion on this on the forum is, well, frankly laughable.

In short, No U.

Discussions don't HAVE to have conflict. They really don't. The purpose of a discussion can also be to inform.

Of course they don't have to be, but you seem to interpret "conflict" as being inherently bad. When two opposing viewpoints on the setting meet on the forum, conflict and differences of opinion can be put against one-another. I've been in arguments with posters on this forum (And others, but that's not important), and left the argument while on pretty good terms with the other poster. A recent example would be when I debated iproxtaco regarding whether or not signifigant thematic changes occurred in the Necron fluff (Please don't try to counter this in any way, shape, or form, I don't want to bring that argument here), and afterwards we left on good terms, I don't fault him for liking the new Necron fluff, and we apparently formed a Dork Triumvirate. That you don't wish to partake in debates of whatever nature is fine, but similarly do not fault me for enjoying a decent debate every now and then.

Seriously, whysohostilebro?

Void__Dragon wrote:
I'm not entirely sure why you think you can take a condescending tone on someone and make pseudo-personal attacks regarding them taking a (Implied by you) nonsensical emotional investment in something, while yourself getting worked up and emotional against a fellow poster who hadn't made a single personal attack against you. Oh, and apparently you also took a sabbatical from DakkaDakka because you grew stressed from the "whining". One could easily ask you to stop becoming whining about people whining about Ward, and to not be so emotionally invested in a forum on the internet. I on the other hand am completely calm, and am more self-aware about my bouts of nerdrage when they arise (And they do indeed arise) than you seem to believe.

You mistake "disappointed due to lack of content" as "stress". I have plenty of stress in my life. Dakka is one of the places I go when trying to avoid it, and when the most recent post in every 40k subforum is Ward/GK complaining, then it becomes disappointing. To be fair, I'm documented at getting just as irritated over having yet another "Master Chief/Space Marine/Jedi" thread every three days..

Also, "you people"? Lolwut?

I had put "you people" in quotes to try to capitalize on the belief that there are polarized camps of people who either like Ward or don't. And there actually is a body of people who DO deride the people who wildly proclaim that they love everything Ward does.

I also find it mildly amusing you immediately associate me with all whiners of Ward, when I try to only approach his work (If it indeed is his work) from a rational point of view, and stated why I don't like it. Do note I only do this regarding the fluff, since not only do I find nothing wrong with the gameplay aspects of his codices, I'm frankly unqualified to make a verdict on it.

See above. It's late here, and I was out drinking last night instead of sleeping, so in my 2 day insomnia haze, I are not as clever that I thought I did. (that was intentional)

I am not part of the "Ward Hatewagon," if you interpeted my words before to mean that I believe no such thing exists, you were incorrect to do so. People do hear about what Ward has allegedly done and whine about it, without reading the codex and fairly oftentimes getting their facts or context wrong. I am not one of those people. I have read every single Ward codex released in 40k (Except the Sisters codex and, obviously, the Necron codex), from front to back, and formed an opinion on it.

Is some of the hate overblown? Oh, absolutely, you will get no argument from me regarding that. I am not trying to justify the people who have an ill-informed opinion on Ward and trash his name or his work with no regard for eloquence or rational thought, especially when such people's sources include sites like 1d4chan. But likewise, IMO, there is a lack of quality regarding some of the fluff within his codices. That you seem to be of some laughable impression that I am not allowed to voice my opinion on this on the forum is, well, frankly laughable.

Well, you were defending the hate, without acknowledging the possibility that a lot of it is overblown. You only seemed to have any sort of criticism for those who were calling out the complaining. I don't think it is such a stretch to see the interpretation of you being a, well, for lack of a better word, bandwagoner.

In short, No U.

Eh, you get that sometimes.

Of course they don't have to be, but you seem to interpret "conflict" as being inherently bad. When two opposing viewpoints on the setting meet on the forum, conflict and differences of opinion can be put against one-another. I've been in arguments with posters on this forum (And others, but that's not important), and left the argument while on pretty good terms with the other poster. A recent example would be when I debated iproxtaco regarding whether or not signifigant thematic changes occurred in the Necron fluff (Please don't try to counter this in any way, shape, or form, I don't want to bring that argument here), and afterwards we left on good terms, I don't fault him for liking the new Necron fluff, and we apparently formed a Dork Triumvirate. That you don't wish to partake in debates of whatever nature is fine, but similarly do not fault me for enjoying a decent debate every now and then.

Seriously, whysohostilebro?

Debate is one thing, but it's just always the same arguments over and over again. "Draigo this, Dreadknight that, Force weapons on everyone?!, these cost too much when I compare them in a vacuum to tac marines, oh look, someone posted that Dreadknight with Ward's mug plastered all over it. Never seen that before."

And I mean, if there was some Hate Tank to keep threads like that in, that would be fine, but it just seeps into everything. You can't have a GK (or even in a lot of cases, BA) thread without someone injecting a "Oh, and MAT WARD derp" somewhere in it, derailing the thread.

daedalus wrote:You mistake "disappointed due to lack of content" as "stress". I have plenty of stress in my life. Dakka is one of the places I go when trying to avoid it, and when the most recent post in every 40k subforum is Ward/GK complaining, then it becomes disappointing. To be fair, I'm documented at getting just as irritated over having yet another "Master Chief/Space Marine/Jedi" thread every three days..

I guess that's fair enough. I'll admit I've seen threads that make me do nothing but groan as well.

I had put "you people" in quotes to try to capitalize on the belief that there are polarized camps of people who either like Ward or don't. And there actually is a body of people who DO deride the people who wildly proclaim that they love everything Ward does.

I try not to do that, like with bombboy for example, who does like Ward's codices. I'll argue for my interpretation/whatever regarding the fluff if he's game, but I do my best not to fault people like him for enjoying something I do not (Though, sadly, it does happen). I didn't pick up on the sarcasm, sorry about that.

See above. It's late here, and I was out drinking last night instead of sleeping, so in my 2 day insomnia haze, I are not as clever that I thought I did. (that was intentional)

Lol all right, sorry for taking you so seriously, as far as I can tell you were completely serious and just started attacking me. And Kaelis Ra knows I have to defend my internet honor.

Well, you were defending the hate, without acknowledging the possibility that a lot of it is overblown. You only seemed to have any sort of criticism for those who were calling out the complaining. I don't think it is such a stretch to see the interpretation of you being a, well, for lack of a better word, bandwagoner.

Fair enough, I should of made that a bit more clear. I certainly should of made it clear that I don't approve of unconstructive criticism, or criticism based on ignorance or falsehood.

Debate is one thing, but it's just always the same arguments over and over again. "Draigo this, Dreadknight that, Force weapons on everyone?!, these cost too much when I compare them in a vacuum to tac marines, oh look, someone posted that Dreadknight with Ward's mug plastered all over it. Never seen that before."

And I mean, if there was some Hate Tank to keep threads like that in, that would be fine, but it just seeps into everything. You can't have a GK (or even in a lot of cases, BA) thread without someone injecting a "Oh, and MAT WARD derp" somewhere in it, derailing the thread.

I guess that's a fair criticism, it would be better if threads regarding critique (Constructive or, more than likely, not) Ward or whatever factions he wrote could stay out of threads concerning them. I won't lie, I cringe every time someone posts that goddamn Blood Angel/Necron fistbump picture. It was kinda funny at first, but now it's overused and inherently overblown.

Hm. A "Hate Tank" might not be a bad idea, a more official "critique of the fluff" or whatever thread to help keep it out of threads that don't need it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sampling_bias

This is one of those reason why it appears everyone hates Ward.

People dont go on the internet to go say meh, over and over again.

I agree that a discussion can be held without conflict, but I do disagree that a fruitful discussion can be held without conflict. Ideas must be tested against one another, mettle in clear view, the victorious swept forward to face the newest threats to its reign. And the cycle begins anew.

I'm still not quite sure, but I may be a member of the Triangle of Geek.

Edits: I like the hate tank. Call it something witty, or don't, but expect people to complain about it.