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P.S. (since this is a letter...) Charles Krauthammer is a well respected individual; when he talks, people listen. Perhaps you are more used to those paragons of journalistic virtue Politco people?

Charles Krauthhammer is to foreign policy what Glenn beck is to economics. He's a buffoon, a sideshow that they drag out to be the extreme opposite of whatever they want parodied. The only people who take him seriously are the deranged and woefully misinformed.

Seriously, the guy said that there was 'no humanitarian crisis in Palestine'. The guy has a foot in the mental ward already.

There's no humanitarian crisis in Palestine.

AustonT wrote:There's no humanitarian crisis in Palestine.

Oh yeah. they live like Kings over there!
/sarcasm

Point to Palestine on a map.

AustonT wrote:There's no humanitarian crisis in Palestine.

I suppose it depends on what you class as 'crisis'. The Israeli's are letting a fraction of the aid get through that they need, hell even access to water, electricity is a luxury and you can forget well equipped hospitals with medicine. Read any one of recent news reports on it, the conditions are pretty terrible.

Regarding the OP, well... a persistent reminder of the nature of subjectivity, and also the way in which people stick their heads in the sand and completely ignore any facts or information that come their way.

AustonT wrote:Point to Palestine on a map.

Ahtman wrote:

AustonT wrote:Point to Palestine on a map.

Couldn't find one in English?

AustonT wrote:Couldn't find one in English?

It is the first map on google images which has a big sign with lines pointing to "Palestine".

AustonT wrote:
Point to Palestine on a map.

What does being able to point to Palestine on a map have to do with being able to judge whether or not there is humanitarians crisis there? Moreover, why would you ask someone to do that on the internet? Do you need to be able to point to Flint, Michigan on a map to determine it suffers from a high crime rate?

It doesn't seem like you put any thought into this. It seems more like you heard the phrase "humanitarian crisis" and "Palestine", and then did what you could to move your head to the side while your knee jerked.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

AustonT wrote:
Couldn't find one in English?

Strangely, in French the word for Palestine is Palestine.

Phanatic, you are the reason the US is being destroyed. You support the dismantelment of democracy and liberty by supporting the Extremist fundementalists. Our right wing racists are freaking commies compared to yours.

biccat wrote:
"Hey, we killed Bin Laden!" ("oh, and pissed off Pakistan")

Clearly this was a massive violation of the United States' long history of respect for the Pakistani government.

biccat wrote:
"Hey, we dropped Ghadafi!" ("and tread all over the war powers act")

Obama advanced an argument (report) when Congress requested one, and Congress backed down. If anything the fault lies with Congress and not the Administration, one should expect those with power to exercise it to the fullest of their ability.

biccat wrote:
"Look, we took out Anwar al-Awlaki!" ("due process? What's that?")

There is a reasonable case to be made that his citizenship had been renounced.

biccat wrote:
Anyone who praises this guy as an improvement over Bush's foreign policy is either a fool or a partisan hack. Possibly both.

That's a false dilemma, but then biccat probably knew that when he posted it, which makes the offense even more egregious.

AustonT wrote:There's no humanitarian crisis in Palestine.

.... aside from there being a humanitarian crisis in Palestine because of the Israeli blockade preventing them from getting enough food, medicine, etc, you're absolutely right!

ShumaGorath wrote:

P.S. (since this is a letter...) Charles Krauthammer is a well respected individual; when he talks, people listen. Perhaps you are more used to those paragons of journalistic virtue Politco people?

Charles Krauthhammer is to foreign policy what Glenn beck is to economics. He's a buffoon, a sideshow that they drag out to be the extreme opposite of whatever they want parodied. The only people who take him seriously are the deranged and woefully misinformed.

Seriously, the guy said that there was 'no humanitarian crisis in Palestine'. The guy has a foot in the mental ward already.

Former president Bill Clinton called Krauthammer "a brilliant man" in a December 2010 press conference.[15] Krauthammer responded, tongue-in-cheek, that "my career is done" and "I'm toast".[16]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Krauthammer

Best,

Bicc, your one of the most partisan blokes ever, how can you say that anyone who thinks Obama is better at his job than Dubya is merely a partisan hack themselves!?

I mean, you know me pretty well by now right? Im not partisan, I talked my missus out of voting for Obama (shes usually a dem!) and would have had her with McCain if he hadnt picked Palin, after that we went independant.

But anyways, Yeah, I swing both ways with US politics, and I personally dislike Obama, but seriously..

I wouldnt trust George Bush with a pair of fething scissors!

I read that wrong. My bad.

mattyrm wrote:But anyways, Yeah, I swing both ways with US politics

Is there really much room to swing between the two parties though?

Not really. In many ways basically just represent different kinds of business interests, economically speaking, with the main difference being in their social views rather than economics...

Plus Matty just likes to see someone he thinks will be good at blowing people up.

There is a humanitarian crisis in Palestine. I doubt anyone can reasonably and legitimately maintain there isn't one. Saying "point to Palestine on a map" is a silly word game. Israel, Palestine, the land of Canaan, are all the same place by different names. Go find Israel on a map. That is Palestine. Any good book address the Palestine-Israeli conflict will probably go to length in its introduction to talk about how mess up the conflict is because people can't even agree on a name for it (Palestine-Israeli Conflict/Israel-Palestine Conflict/Palestine Conflict/Israel Conflict/Israel-Arab Conflict etc etc).

But that's the kind of insane thing some folks will post in reaction to a comment about what's happening there.

That comment was the closest to getting an aggressive, rule one breaking response from me that has been posted in a long time. I think it's because AustonT usually seems sensible, and then he posts something that is so ridiculously callous and sly. Very disappointing.


As to Phanatik's article, it's easy to win arguments when you get to define every term in the argument according to your parameters. I could say that Bush "lost" the war on terror when he radicalised people with anti-american sentiment the world over, making the world a much less safe place than it previously had been with his aggressive foreign policy.
It would be just as hard to argue against, and make just as much sense as what you're posting.

Da Boss wrote:That comment was the closest to getting an aggressive, rule one breaking response from me that has been posted in a long time. I think it's because AustonT usually seems sensible, and then he posts something that is so ridiculously callous and sly. Very disappointing.

As to Phanatik's article, it's easy to win arguments when you get to define every term in the argument according to your parameters. I could say that Bush "lost" the war on terror when he radicalised people with anti-american sentiment the world over, making the world a much less safe place than it previously had been with his aggressive foreign policy.
It would be just as hard to argue against, and make just as much sense as what you're posting.

I think it would be safe to say that the people that hated us before the Bush Regime still hate us, and that the people that liked us still like us.
Perhaps the one thing Bush did right was concentrate the fighting in Iraq.

Best,

No, people hate us more thanks to GW. He was pissing of russia and screwing around in the middle east playing crusader bringing the great capitalistic system to the uncouth sand people.

Space Crusader wrote:No, people hate us more thanks to GW. He was pissing of russia and screwing around in the middle east playing crusader bringing the great capitalistic system to the uncouth sand people.

This. GW lied to us about why we went in, and we've ben stuck in a quagmire of an unwinnable war ever since.

Phanatik wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

P.S. (since this is a letter...) Charles Krauthammer is a well respected individual; when he talks, people listen. Perhaps you are more used to those paragons of journalistic virtue Politco people?

Charles Krauthhammer is to foreign policy what Glenn beck is to economics. He's a buffoon, a sideshow that they drag out to be the extreme opposite of whatever they want parodied. The only people who take him seriously are the deranged and woefully misinformed.

Seriously, the guy said that there was 'no humanitarian crisis in Palestine'. The guy has a foot in the mental ward already.

Former president Bill Clinton called Krauthammer "a brilliant man" in a December 2010 press conference.[15] Krauthammer responded, tongue-in-cheek, that "my career is done" and "I'm toast".[16]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Krauthammer

Best,

I appreciate the fact that Bill Clinton tried to destroy krauthammer. Liberal praise is deadly when you're a unicorn princess from shadow earth. I'm sure he's an incredible foreign policy specialist over there. The problem is he exists in the real world and doesn't know feth gak about it. That he has a media following at all is indicative of how much conservative armchair hawks like to pretend they know minor geographical facts.

Chowderhead wrote:

Space Crusader wrote:No, people hate us more thanks to GW. He was pissing of russia and screwing around in the middle east playing crusader bringing the great capitalistic system to the uncouth sand people.

This. GW lied to us about why we went in, and we've ben stuck in a quagmire of an unwinnable war ever since.

You should read about the occupation of Iraq and how the republicans FETHED it. I would rather let an arsonic guard the world supply of oil then let republicans occupy my country. They spend a fortune on making a palace for them but barly giving anything to the needy iraqis. Not to talk about them defending the mercs murdering without punishment.

Da Boss wrote:That comment was the closest to getting an aggressive, rule one breaking response from me that has been posted in a long time. I think it's because AustonT usually seems sensible, and then he posts something that is so ridiculously callous and sly. Very disappointing..

We all have that one, at least, thing we're unreasonable about.
I'm not sure I'd agree with sly, I'm pretty open about what I think about Palestinians. Callous: yes. I am unsympathetic to the plight of the Muslim minority of Israel demanding independence and then orchestrating a decades long campaign of terror against them. The sad state of the infrastructure of Gaza and the Palestinian West Bank are symptomatic of thier silent endorsement of Hamas, I take that back. Thier ELECTED support of Hamas. I'm sure a fair portion of Palestenians would prefer to be unrestricted citizens of Israel than impoverished members of the Occupied Palestenian Territories, but it's not they they got to where they are by peaceful cooperation.

AustonT, I wonder how you would respond if America was occupied by a technologically superior force which constantly expanded it's territories by bulldozing the living areas of you and your neighbours. Likelihood is you'd be pretty pissed off.

As to sly, the word game you were playing with "show me Palestine on a map" was to me, extremely sly and political. There are people suffering, nitpicking over something like that is disgraceful.

The Palestinian extremists are as bad as the israeli extremists, the people in the middle on both sides get fethed. However, what the Israelis are doing at this time is to me, indefensible. The fact that so many can endorse it completely sickens me. Damning an entire population due to the actions of a group of extremists is simply a way to drive the population into their arms- after all, who else is fighting their corner?

I doubt I will ever convince you or change your mind, but I felt I couldn't let such a nasty comment go without a response.

AustonT wrote:I am unsympathetic to the plight of the Muslim minority of Israel demanding independence and then orchestrating a decades long campaign of terror against them.

They're not the minority if you consider the whole of the Palestine region. Israel is not the only strip of land that is part of the conflict. Overall there are more Muslim Arabs in it than Jews. The Jews are an even smaller minority if you account for all the refugees no longer in the area. But the populations are clearly divided into different parts of the region, the Jews in the nation state of Israel, and the Muslim Arabs in the surrounding areas.

I'm sure a fair portion of Palestenians would prefer to be unrestricted citizens of Israel than impoverished members of the Occupied Palestenian Territories,

You might want to clarify that. The Palestinians in Israel are second-class citizens, hardly unrestricted. Israel is actually quite invested in keeping non-Jews out and disenfranchised, as you can't have a Jewish state where a significant portion of the population is non-Jewish. It's one of the key reasons Palestinians have been denied the right of return.

AustonT wrote:

Da Boss wrote:That comment was the closest to getting an aggressive, rule one breaking response from me that has been posted in a long time. I think it's because AustonT usually seems sensible, and then he posts something that is so ridiculously callous and sly. Very disappointing..

We all have that one, at least, thing we're unreasonable about.
I'm not sure I'd agree with sly, I'm pretty open about what I think about Palestinians. Callous: yes. I am unsympathetic to the plight of the Muslim minority of Israel demanding independence and then orchestrating a decades long campaign of terror against them. The sad state of the infrastructure of Gaza and the Palestinian West Bank are symptomatic of thier silent endorsement of Hamas, I take that back. Thier ELECTED support of Hamas. I'm sure a fair portion of Palestenians would prefer to be unrestricted citizens of Israel than impoverished members of the Occupied Palestenian Territories, but it's not they they got to where they are by peaceful cooperation.

Its sometimes (well, I guess not sometimes, you're still a fairly freshfaced dakkaite!) flooring just how little you actually know about middeastern politics or economics and just how much of your information you pull straight from the teat of buzzwords and stump speeches. Or alternatively, how jaded and racist pro Palestinian foreign policy wonks can be. Lets analyze this, shall we? I mean, things like decades long campaign of terror are pretty strong and pretty loaded statements. It implies that Israel has just been sitting on it's thumbs, being the perfect neighbor, and not a hyper militant, racist, expansionist theocracy with carte blanche to do or kill whatever it wants.

I'm not sure I'd agree with sly, I'm pretty open about what I think about Palestinians. Callous: yes. I am unsympathetic to the plight of the Muslim minority of Israel demanding independence and then orchestrating a decades long campaign of terror against them.

In roughly 20 years roughly 800 people have been killed by suicide bombs linked to pallestinians abroad. Not all have been directed at israel, but a large number of them have. That's a frightful number by any stretch.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_suicide_attacks

Palestinian rocket and mortar attacks on Israel from the Gaza Strip have occurred since 2001. Between 2001 and January 2009, over 8,600 rockets had been launched, leading to 28 deaths and several hundred injuries,[1][2] as well as widespread psychological trauma and disruption of daily life.[3]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel

Yeah, that sure does seem bad. 28 people, even in global terms, isn't a meaningless number. It's not even remotely close to the suicide bombings, despite getting several orders of magnitude more western media attention, but then fox news is bored of talking about bombs. They like rockets!



Lets look at the other side of this puzzle though, shall we? They've managed to bring down somewhere along the lines of 700ish israeli citizens with suicide attacks and 28 Israeli civilians in their anti israel rocket campaign Thats truly terrible. But lets see how your dark horse candidate is doing in this defensive conflict.

The IDF tallied 709 Hamas and affiliated militant deaths, which is supported by statements from Hamas Interior Minister Fathi Hamad.[243][324] In addition, 450–720 (or 740—PMoH[325]) civilians were killed in the conflict. Ten Israeli soldiers were killed, along with three civilians.[326]

Uhoh tim. It looks like in a few short months Israel managed to catch up during the Gaza war in 2008!

In fact!

The conflict resulted in between 1,166 and 1,417 Palestinian and 13 Israeli deaths, 4 from friendly fire.[48]

Israel is managing a near 100 to one kill death ratio! That would put any counterstrike professional to shame! Somehow, magically, despite being the defensive guy they've managed to kill nearly twice as many palsetinians in one fething month as they have ever lost to Palestinian militant aggression! But those numbers are deceiving, I think.

Lets go further into this though. Lets expand our frame of reference. Lets look at the rough total between the two sides.



Oh gak, it looks like they've managed to score a five to one kill death ratio in this conflict. Those poor jewish bastards. But why! Why would the Palestinians be so angry at them? The Israelis just want to live in peace with their neighbors, they would never do anything to actually hurt them.



Oh. Well that seems odd. I thought the israelis were defending here.



Oh. So wait. They have killed five times as many palestinians in this war as they have lost israelis. Their boders have expanded roughly 100% since they were established. They have Palestine in an internationally illegal blockade wherein they refuse to let them have stuff like musical instruments. Oh, and they also have the most powerful military in the Mideast, Nukes, and the strongest economy in the region.

Why doesn't this add up to a situation where we should feel bad for them? I mean, you certainly seem to. But it doesn't make sense. Could it be that you know absolutely nothing about the middle east? I just don't know man. I don't know.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli%E2%80%93Palestinian_conflict
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_War