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Kharrak wrote:

Tyrs13 wrote:did you add whips or beamers to the wraiths?

(I1 enemies in base contact)

And a Initiative or str check, i forget which, or die 6" assault 1 (No Saves) shooting attack for 15 points on wraiths .

Nope, just used vanilla variations of each. Wouldn't effect the result of the combat with the terminators, since they hit at I1 anyway, though it would definitely have a better time with coils = the fight would still end in Ork victory, but with only 9 boyz and a nob left, rather than 17 or 18 boyz.

Of course, this is all mathhammer, so it's all formula based averages. Your mileage may vary

I don't understand your Math on the Wraith Combat.

Who is getting the charge off in this? in addition, in a mob of 30 Boyz, not all of them will be able to swing. I just don't see how the Boyz are winning this, unless you are giving them the charge, and directing every attack in the Mob against the wraiths. If you throw the whipcoils on them, the Boyz shouldn't even stand a chance.

Also,

A big hidden weakness for necrons, is the Ghost Ark, Command Barge, Annihilation Barge, and Doomsday Ark are all open-topped - so glances are only working on -1, instead of -2. Meaning you only need a 5 on the damage chart to destroy it if you glance

It takes a 6 on the glancing chart, not a 5 to destroy an Open topped Vehicle on a glance.

Sasori wrote:I don't understand your Math on the Wraith Combat.

Who is getting the charge off in this? in addition, in a mob of 30 Boyz, not all of them will be able to swing. I just don't see how the Boyz are winning this, unless you are giving them the charge, and directing every attack in the Mob against the wraiths. If you throw the whipcoils on them, the Boyz shouldn't even stand a chance.

Actually, that's something I forgot to point out - the calcs were assuming all the boys were able to get into combat and perform a perfect rap around, allowing them all to get attacks in. In the case of the whip coils, I drew up an illistration and deducted what I reasoned to be the most ideal situation for having as many possible orks in base to base contact with the wraiths, and seperated those calcs (not that it actually mattered, since I realized that casualties would be taken from the back, so the I1 Orks would be unnaffected). Regardless, it's certainly not a realistic interpretation of how wraiths will actually act on a table, which has directional charging, choke points, and a whole bunch of stuff which makes such "clean" assaults quite a rarity. I was more interested in general capability of the wraiths, though, in which I'm happy to put them against impossible numbers, just to see how they can perform. In the example, as I stated, I always assumed necrons had the charge. Ultimately, it's just the weight of Ork attacks (sluggas, in this case) that brings them down, in such a simulation. Naturally, such large mobs in actual play will have trouble consilidating neatly, so much less attacks will reach the Wraiths. That, however, I'll leave up for player experience!

If you do want to see the calcs, I don't really mind re-doing them for scrutiny. OCD and all

A big hidden weakness for necrons, is the Ghost Ark, Command Barge, Annihilation Barge, and Doomsday Ark are all open-topped - so glances are only working on -1, instead of -2. Meaning you only need a 5 on the damage chart to destroy it if you glance

It takes a 6 on the glancing chart, not a 5 to destroy an Open topped Vehicle on a glance.

I've been playtesting a few games with Necrons already. A few things that were initially highly appraised I think are a little weaker than expected, but overall this Codex definitely has the potential to compete. However, it is not unbeatable by any means. Armies that have the ability to deflect or stall Necron Scarabs will have a big advantage, as many Necron armies are largely reliant on these units for their anti-tank firepower.

IG and Tau armies have been using bubblewrap units for a long time and this becomes even more important against Necrons. Delaying the Scarab hit will be crucial-- if you can shield your vehicles from Scarabs, most armies should have a comparatively easy time with the 'Cron lists I've been seeing so far. That said there is more to Codex: Necrons than that, and I think we will soon be seeing some more varied lists that might require more tactical shifts to defeat.

Warboss Gutrip wrote:Foot-horde FNP Blood Angels is, for me, the primary necron weakness.

They don't have the combat punch or tonnes of S6/7/8/9/10 AP3/2/1 to actually beat these guys up, and the simple weakness of the 'dex is combat.

Hah, I'll eagerly wait for a Necron army with my BA. The Crons simply do not have the abilities to prevent their advance and charge.

I think we'll see a lot of scarab spam to tackle with th AT problem... they're the only No-Brainer choie actually IMHO... cheap, very efficient and extremely quick (I think they suffer a lot only against Assault-canno equivalents)

punkow wrote:I think we'll see a lot of scarab spam to tackle with th AT problem... they're the only No-Brainer choie actually IMHO... cheap, very efficient and extremely quick (I think they suffer a lot only against Assault-canno equivalents)

Actually, Scarabs have a lot of weaknesses besides just assault cannons. Any Blast weapon with a strength above 5 will be brutal, since they will suffer from both Instant Death and Vulnerable to Blasts against such weapons. Scarabs are also rather poor in CC, especially against units with strong saves or FNP. Blood Angel armies and the like should have no trouble taking them out. A 6 man Blood Angel assault squad will actually win combat against 10 scarabs in CC, even if they don't bring a powerfist.

Further, Terminators and Assault Terminators will annihilate Scarabs. Even if 20 Scarabs charge 10 Terminators at once and somehow get everyone in contact, the Terminators will wipe the floor with them (100 attacks, 50 hits, 16 wounds, about 2 terminators die, 16 counterattacks, 8 hits, Scarabs lose 6-7 bases to Instant Death, lose combat by 16+, both units lose another 3 bases to No Retreat! and the Scarabs get finished off next round). Scarabs are great, but they aren't the be-all end-all.

Hey kharrak, can you redo your calculations vs. the terminator squad with RoC-packing triarch praetorians?

If my calculations are correct a squad of 10 triarch praetorians will wipe a 10-strong termie squad with power fists out during your opponent's turn after losing 1 model or so.

I'm really starting to think that praetorians aren't as bad as people think if you pick their targets correctly...

edit: I know my math is off. I didn't take the sergeant's power sword into account. I have no idea how much it's going to change, but it will change something. I'm guessing the praetorians will end up about as well off as the lych guard.
edit2: Yeah...minor adjustment tops. They lose 2 models instead of 1 because of the sergeant going on initiative.

RabbiPT wrote:

Razerous wrote:It is unfortunately ambiguous. "once all reanimation protocol's have been made for a unit" (good or bad) "remove all counters from the unit." You roll at the end of a phase. Once you've finished rolling, at the end of that phase, that could quite easily be it.

Personally I doubt you get to roll that many times in either players turns (yours or theirs) as that would be unstoppable (do the math ) - I think it allows for necrons to "get back up" at all points during a game turn; whether it be from dangerous terrain tests, enemy shooting, either assault phase resolutions or "get's hot" rule. Not they have any amateur Plasma weaponry. (well their is a way a re-animation model could loose a wound in its own shooting phase, the reason in this very codex but I digress).

In fact, as it clearly doesn't mention anything about "at the end of a game/player turn, remove all counters from the unit" the only option could be you refresh at the start of every new phase. Otherwise, but the logic mentioned here, the pool would never refresh, as its being assumed that the rules state you remove your counters at the end of turn (which it clearly does not state). Ah good, problem solved

Not sure why there's confusion on this, personally. It seems pretty clear to me.

You lose 4 necrons in a phase. At the end of the phase, you roll for RP and 2 get back up. The reanimation protocol rolls have been made for the unit, so you remove the counters and the other 2 necrons are dead for good. If you lose 3 more necrons on a subsequent phase, roll for those 3 RP only, since the counters for the two that failed earlier have been removed.

QFT - I agree completely. I think it was suggested that you get to keep your RP counters over multiple phases, remvoing them at the end of turn.

I don't see CC as a profound weakness as I think it will be hard to put wounds on T4 WS4 models, without power weapons or rending. Combine that with LD10 and you will have to beat necrons by 3+ to stand a decent chance of making a sweeping advance. Granted, some units will butcher their way through necrons but they'd generally butcher their way through most things.

I see long-ranged AT as being a profound weakness. Shooting infantry, you have options. Shooting tanks within 24", you have options. Past that, it gets muddy. Its going to require some serious use of mitigating tactics

Arandmoor wrote:Hey kharrak, can you redo your calculations vs. the terminator squad with RoC-packing triarch praetorians?

If my calculations are correct a squad of 10 triarch praetorians will wipe a 10-strong termie squad with power fists out during your opponent's turn after losing 1 model or so.

I'm really starting to think that praetorians aren't as bad as people think if you pick their targets correctly...

edit: I know my math is off. I didn't take the sergeant's power sword into account. I have no idea how much it's going to change, but it will change something. I'm guessing the praetorians will end up about as well off as the lych guard.
edit2: Yeah...minor adjustment tops. They lose 2 models instead of 1 because of the sergeant going on initiative.

The problem is that you don't need to worry about normal Terminators-- you need to worry about Assault Terminators, who-- with either TH/SS or dual lightning claws-- pose a much greater threat to the Necron assault units.

Uhmm yes scarabs have several weaknesses... surely they will not be a Deathstar choice... I was just thinking that with a 19"-24" charge range, only 15 points per base and the IMHO incredibly OTT rules for entropic strike, they are an obvious choice for Anti tank... That doesn't mean they're totally OP, simply they are a no-brainer ...

I wouldn't say that. Scarabs compete with many extremely good units themselves. While I suspect that taking a unit or two of Scarabs will be part of the Necron core, thanks to their strong synergies with other elements of the Codex, there are many other strong units in the Fast Attack slot-- such as the Wraiths-- that definitely have their merits as well.

Codex: Necrons is surprisingly internally balanced. There are very few units that strike me as truly bad, and the army feels very "fluffy." Aside from the general weakness of the Elites slot, I feel that this Codex is one of the most interesting GW releases to date.

Berserkers on the charge... full of win!

Fetterkey wrote:

Arandmoor wrote:Hey kharrak, can you redo your calculations vs. the terminator squad with RoC-packing triarch praetorians?

If my calculations are correct a squad of 10 triarch praetorians will wipe a 10-strong termie squad with power fists out during your opponent's turn after losing 1 model or so.

I'm really starting to think that praetorians aren't as bad as people think if you pick their targets correctly...

edit: I know my math is off. I didn't take the sergeant's power sword into account. I have no idea how much it's going to change, but it will change something. I'm guessing the praetorians will end up about as well off as the lych guard.
edit2: Yeah...minor adjustment tops. They lose 2 models instead of 1 because of the sergeant going on initiative.

The problem is that you don't need to worry about normal Terminators-- you need to worry about Assault Terminators, who-- with either TH/SS or dual lightning claws-- pose a much greater threat to the Necron assault units.

Like I said.

Arandmoor wrote:if you pick their targets correctly...

The only way I'm taking anything necron-cc up against assault termies is if I've got a squad of whip coil wraiths to pile in with as well and restrict the number of possible return attacks.

And I'm going to shoot them first where and when possible, so I won't be assaulting a full unit to begin with. This truth is so basic, I'm not even going to bother mathing it out. If I have to assault a full squad of assault termies, something has gone horribly, horribly wrong up to this point and I'm probably losing anyway.

But very few people actually take units of Tactical Terminators, at least outside of Codex: Black Templars. I think that comparison is overly favorable to the Necrons. IMO Praetorians are not a justifiable unit, sadly-- they cost 40 ppm and don't bring enough kill to the table to justify that expense.

Fetterkey wrote:But very few people actually take units of Tactical Terminators, at least outside of Codex: Black Templars. I think that comparison is overly favorable to the Necrons. IMO Praetorians are not a justifiable unit, sadly-- they cost 40 ppm and don't bring enough kill to the table to justify that expense.

I think they bring plenty of kill to the table.

First off, they're jump infantry. Everyone who's in love with Lych Guard should be salivating over the Triarch Praetorians because of their vastly superior mobility. I keep seeing people scoff at their A1 and 6" shooting.

When I look at it I don't see A1 and 6" shooting. I see an A3-on-the-assault unit with an "I'm better than a banshee's mask" rules hack for one attack per model on the assault that pairs up absurdly well with a small squad of whip coil equipped wraiths and a destroyer lord packing a rez orb. Additionally, they can swap the rules hackery for a standard S6 pistol/power weapon combo for free.

And they're still S/T 5 with 3+ saves. D-lord will raise their RP to a 4+ and he's got the T and W to suck up a LOT of return attacks without going down.

IMO, necrons have some of the best jump infantry in the galaxy.

Arandmoor wrote:

Fetterkey wrote:But very few people actually take units of Tactical Terminators, at least outside of Codex: Black Templars. I think that comparison is overly favorable to the Necrons. IMO Praetorians are not a justifiable unit, sadly-- they cost 40 ppm and don't bring enough kill to the table to justify that expense.

I think they bring plenty of kill to the table.

First off, they're jump infantry. Everyone who's in love with Lych Guard should be salivating over the Triarch Praetorians because of their vastly superior mobility. I keep seeing people scoff at their A1 and 6" shooting.

When I look at it I don't see A1 and 6" shooting. I see an A3-on-the-assault unit with an "I'm better than a banshee's mask" rules hack for one attack per model on the assault that pairs up absurdly well with a small squad of whip coil equipped wraiths and a destroyer lord packing a rez orb. Additionally, they can swap the rules hackery for a standard S6 pistol/power weapon combo for free.

And they're still S/T 5 with 3+ saves. D-lord will raise their RP to a 4+ and he's got the T and W to suck up a LOT of return attacks without going down.

IMO, necrons have some of the best jump infantry in the galaxy.

All I see when I look at them is "40pts each".

Yeah I'm not too impressed with the praetorians either. I'd rather have the Lychguard IMO. They appear to have a bit more killing power for the price.

Arandmoor wrote: I keep seeing people scoff at their A1 and 6" shooting.


IMO, necrons have some of the best jump infantry in the galaxy.

I dont see it

I mean if they had A2 and maybe 35 points or so, they're be somewhat usable but I dont know. I'd rather fill up on a bunch of wraiths or something if I want to kill something in CC.

ALTHOUGH on the bright side of life

Praetorians/Lychs+Spare Deathmark heads from immortals=Plastic Necron Court kit

kenshin620 wrote:

Praetorians/Lychs+Spare Deathmark heads from immortals=Plastic Necron Court kit

I was thinking the same thing. But aren't the Lych bodies a bit too beefy for Crypteks? I guess you could use Deathmark bodies + Heads + Rods of the Covenant, but...will the arms match? They appear to be the same thickness of warrior arms, so that's ok I guess.

I wouldn't say that. Scarabs compete with many extremely good units themselves. While I suspect that taking a unit or two of Scarabs will be part of the Necron core, thanks to their strong synergies with other elements of the Codex, there are many other strong units in the Fast Attack slot-- such as the Wraiths-- that definitely have their merits as well.

Codex: Necrons is surprisingly internally balanced. There are very few units that strike me as truly bad, and the army feels very "fluffy." Aside from the general weakness of the Elites slot, I feel that this Codex is one of the most interesting GW releases to date.

Well actually you're right.... there are other nice choices in the FA FOC slots.... but as you have said, scarabs seems to play a crucial role in providing AT. But actually I am not bringing my experience, just ideas from my reading of the dex... I'll have a 2000 points game on wednesday against a very diversified cron army... I will tell you if scarabs are an obliged choice or not!
Bout Praetorians I think that only a Destroyer lord inside a very large unit can make em enough survivable to make the dirty job... but that's going to cost you 500+ points...for an assault dedicated unit... in a shooty army... Remember that they're on foot so a 5 man squad will be easily destroybale by shooting in 1 turn, denying em the Protocols (consider that being jump infantry often cause a bad use of cover if you want to use the speed you paid for)
Cheers!

Sorry if this has been covered, I don't really have the time to look through the whole thread and any others at the moment.

Lychguard, now while I haven't looked at the codex in any detail yet. Just seem to be a waste of points. An assault unit with I2? At 40 points a model? Now if they were 20, might be worth it as some will survive to do some damage, but at 200 points for 5 I don't see how they can every be worth their points... Which is a huge shame as they are my favourite Necron models.

rodgers37 wrote:Sorry if this has been covered, I don't really have the time to look through the whole thread and any others at the moment.

Lychguard, now while I haven't looked at the codex in any detail yet. Just seem to be a waste of points. An assault unit with I2? At 40 points a model? Now if they were 20, might be worth it as some will survive to do some damage, but at 200 points for 5 I don't see how they can every be worth their points... Which is a huge shame as they are my favourite Necron models.

They are T5 S5 with 2 attacks and a 3+ save. They get a power weapon that increases their S by 2 and give 2d6 AP for free.

For an additional 5 points, they get a 4++ save, a normal PW.

And they still get RP.

40points is worth it.

kenshin620 wrote:

Arandmoor wrote: I keep seeing people scoff at their A1 and 6" shooting.


IMO, necrons have some of the best jump infantry in the galaxy.

I dont see it

I mean if they had A2 and maybe 35 points or so, they're be somewhat usable but I dont know. I'd rather fill up on a bunch of wraiths or something if I want to kill something in CC.

A2 and 35 points? For BS4/WS4 S5/T5 jump infantry with a 3+ armor save and squad-wide power weapons in a shooty army? (who have AP2 guns, or A2 and S6 AP- guns)

What the hell are you smoking to think that 35 ppm would be even remotely fair in the context of the rest of the army? I really want to know.

For a squad that can mulch pretty much anything short of an equal-size squad of assault terminators (or 'nid MCs/Wytches) in 1-2 turns no less...

People keep ignoring the Jump Infantry designation. How can you not admit that it's a huge factor?

Arandmoor wrote:

kenshin620 wrote:

Arandmoor wrote: I keep seeing people scoff at their A1 and 6" shooting.


IMO, necrons have some of the best jump infantry in the galaxy.

I dont see it

I mean if they had A2 and maybe 35 points or so, they're be somewhat usable but I dont know. I'd rather fill up on a bunch of wraiths or something if I want to kill something in CC.

A2 and 35 points? For BS4/WS4 S5/T5 jump infantry with a 3+ armor save and squad-wide power weapons in a shooty army? (who have AP2 guns, or A2 and S6 AP5 guns)

What the hell are you smoking to think that 35 ppm would be even remotely fair in the context of the rest of the army? I really want to know.

For a squad that can mulch pretty much anything short of an equal-size squad of assault terminators (or 'nid MCs/Wytches) in 1-2 turns no less...

People keep ignoring the Jump Infantry designation. How can you not admit that it's a huge factor?

Fix'd

People keep ignoring the Jump Infantry designation. How can you not admit that it's a huge factor?

Well... IMHO because it is not a so huge factor... how do you use the praetorians? as lone assault unit? well... they're going to be shredde to pieces before reaching enemy line... As a counter-charge unit? well I think the lychguard perform that role much better... If the codex was filled with amazing fast-moving assault capable units, praetorian could perform a decent role... but crons are a shooty army so they're going to be alone in the assault...

I would still be interested to see what the Beamers on Wraiths would do to Termies before the assault, Specifically Th/Sh.

I mean 6 shots at bs 4= 4 hits ... and 1-2 termies should drop from failed checks. (4+ fails). And no saves of any kind.
Then a charge ... i mean if they bring 5 Termies and you kill at least 1-2 before you assault is it enough?

punkow wrote:

People keep ignoring the Jump Infantry designation. How can you not admit that it's a huge factor?

Well... IMHO because it is not a so huge factor... how do you use the praetorians? as lone assault unit? well... they're going to be shredde to pieces before reaching enemy line... As a counter-charge unit? well I think the lychguard perform that role much better... If the codex was filled with amazing fast-moving assault capable units, praetorian could perform a decent role... but crons are a shooty army so they're going to be alone in the assault...

I agree, especially with I2. Even orks and guardsmen can get some chances to poke at them. If they're going to be used in conjunction with wraiths, mind as well get more wraiths

Got two games in today, both against same guy - Tyranids first, then Space Marines. Lost first one, second one was closer, but I was still losing, but not badly - I might have still pulled something off toward the end if we hadn't had to call it. Didn't help that those were my first two games.

Thoughts:

Warriors. They sit there, and shoot, and rez themselves, and shoot, and rez themselves... barring bad luck rolls on RP or Morale checks, they'll sit there and keep shooting until they finally get CC'd.
Same thing more or less for Immortals, only with better saves. If you play in a Mech heavy meta, you're better off with Gauss for glances in 6. Otherwise, take the Tesla.
I2 does indeed hurt them in CC. Especially when it happens to be Warriors in CC with Hormagaunts.
However, having a Monolith right behind said Warriors, puttering up, and sucking up half the unit of Hormagaunts via Portal of Exile - hilarious. Monolith by itself can put out a fairly respectable amount of damage with its' fire as well.
Tachyon arrows can, unfortunately, miss, making you very sad.
Scarabs eat vehicles. They ate the armor off of a Hive Tyrant in the first game, and ate a Drop Pod and a tank (not sure which type) the next. They've got a surprisingly large assault range.
Warscythes kill tanks. I had Anrakyr on a Command Barge fly right over a Dreadnought and explode it. I had a Necron Lord assault a Landraider and explode it.

...Pretty much every penetration roll I had was 'explodes', in case you're wondering.

Anrakyr's ability, while fun, didn't get to do much for me - I kept rolling 1s and 2s.

Lychguard... live, but only up to a certain point - even with Dispersion Shields. The second game they essentially protected the Necron Lord from Terminators so he got into Assault range of the Land Raider.
Having an Ever-Living HQ - amusing. Anrakyr came back. Twice. They blew up his command barge, so he'd walk forward, assault some marines, kill a few in melee, die, come back from Ever-Living, rinse, repeat. He kept moving toward the tanks. The tanks kept moving away from him.

Correct me if I'm wrong... it is possible to have a Necron Overlord with the Phaeron upgrade Deepstriking in with Deathmarks. Relentless Deathmarks Deepstriking in from reserves during your own turn (if you are feeling ballsy) right next to an enemy unit during movement phase may then unload 20 Rapid Fire sniper shots at the unit you drop by, wounding on twos.

If so, going to need to try that next time...

Pretty cool games you got. Love it when vehicles explode!

Ruan wrote:

Correct me if I'm wrong... it is possible to have a Necron Overlord with the Phaeron upgrade Deepstriking in with Deathmarks. Relentless Deathmarks Deepstriking in from reserves during your own turn (if you are feeling ballsy) right next to an enemy unit during movement phase may then unload 20 Rapid Fire sniper shots at the unit you drop by, wounding on twos.

Sadly all rules point that if an attached IC/part of a unit cannot deepstrike, then the unit cannot deepstrike

kenshin620 wrote:Pretty cool games you got. Love it when vehicles explode!

Ruan wrote:

Correct me if I'm wrong... it is possible to have a Necron Overlord with the Phaeron upgrade Deepstriking in with Deathmarks. Relentless Deathmarks Deepstriking in from reserves during your own turn (if you are feeling ballsy) right next to an enemy unit during movement phase may then unload 20 Rapid Fire sniper shots at the unit you drop by, wounding on twos.

Sadly all rules point that if an attached IC/part of a unit cannot deepstrike, then the unit cannot deepstrike

I think the only way it could be done is if you attached the lord and a cryptek with a veil to the deathmarks. You couldn't deepstrike out of reserve like this, but you could start the unit on the board and use the veil deepstrike.