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schadenfreude wrote:Scarabs only have a 6" move +D6" fleet now so the spyders can keep up with a 6" move and D6" run and poop babies until the scarabs decide to make a 12" charge move. 2 turns of pooping babies puts scarab bases equal to 60% of the spyders cost on the table.

Oh yeah, I know that. I was running 2 Spyders like this just last night. What I meant was Scarabs won't be absorbing wounds that the Spyders would be taking otherwise (like they used to, when poop-Scarabs still attached to the Spyder's unit).

schadenfreude wrote:
Scarabs only have a 6" move +D6" fleet now so the spyders can keep up with a 6" move and D6" run and poop babies until the scarabs decide to make a 12" charge move. 2 turns of pooping babies puts scarab bases equal to 60% of the spyders cost on the table.

I missed the whole no mixed unit part honestly, but thats what I was getting at
the things are more point effecient than any tyranid mc really, they don't blow their O rings 60% of the time, and scarabs are sort of more useful than gaunts. (sans uber upgraded gaunts with feel no pain), /and/ they don't fill the board with killpoints, thats /mean/!

Grundz wrote:

schadenfreude wrote:
Scarabs only have a 6" move +D6" fleet now so the spyders can keep up with a 6" move and D6" run and poop babies until the scarabs decide to make a 12" charge move. 2 turns of pooping babies puts scarab bases equal to 60% of the spyders cost on the table.

I missed the whole no mixed unit part honestly, but thats what I was getting at
the things are more point effecient than any tyranid mc really, they don't blow their O rings 60% of the time, and scarabs are sort of more useful than gaunts. (sans uber upgraded gaunts with feel no pain), /and/ they don't fill the board with killpoints, thats /mean/!

Imagine 3x 3x Spyders and 3x 10x Scarabs. Adds up to only 975 points with the Spyders kitted for allocation. If only I could afford that many Scarab bases.....

whigwam wrote:
I missed the whole no mixed unit part honestly, but thats what I was getting at
the things are more point effecient than any tyranid mc really, they don't blow their O rings 60% of the time, and scarabs are sort of more useful than gaunts. (sans uber upgraded gaunts with feel no pain), /and/ they don't fill the board with killpoints, thats /mean/!

Imagine 3x 3x Spyders and 3x 10x Scarabs. Adds up to only 975 points with the Spyders kitted for allocation. If only I could afford that many Scarab bases.....

The Sentinels could do pretty well I think. I was forced to engage a Defiler with one of my Scarab squads the other day...the Instant Death stomping + No Retreat wounds did not treat me well. Was only able to put -3 on the Defiler's armor before the Scarabs were all mushed (granted there were only 6 bases to begin with and no Spyders nearby).

Would a lack of tank shocking apply as a weakness? I mean its kind of a letdown that the 115 point AR13 troop transport can't tank shock at all. Not even an upgrade that makes it possible.

whigwam wrote:

Grundz wrote:As a former tyranid player, is anyone else absolutely horrified by Canoptek spiders?

for 175 points you can have a unit of 3, 3 wound, T6 3+ Mc's that can poop babies to absorb wounds, 9 attacks on the charge

thats 9 wounds of T6 3+ with wound allocation and free bullet shield shananagins
yeah they are slower, and compete for HS slots with models that are required, but jeeze!

Note that Spyders can only add Scarabs to existing squads, so the Scarabs aren't quite absorbing wounds. You also have to pay a bit for the equipment for wound allocation, so a kitted unit of three will be 175. Still, Spyders are definitely a bargain. Can't wait until they get better models..

*Ninja'd..!

List temptation... lol ... 3x3 spyders...

Run it with Ghost Arks that the Spyders can repair as well, flawless victory :p






Actually, what would be the best vehicle that could run with this and the spyders could keep repaired?

AND

Can Ghost Arks all occupants fire because it's open topped + 5 shots to one bow?

yes - thats the intent.

Here's an interesting option: I believe you can opt to save on your Invulnerable even when your armor save is available, thus activating the reflection.

DarkHound wrote:Here's an interesting option: I believe you can opt to save on your Invulnerable even when your armor save is available, thus activating the reflection.

No. You have to take the best available save.

Then I went and looked, and the wording does seem to support you. "In these cases, the model only ever gets to make one saving throw, but it has the advantage of always using the best available save." Worded like that, it seems to say you are never forced to use worse than your best instead of actually requiring you always use your best. I suppose you are correct though.

EDIT: The only reason I bring this up is my first statement was from memory. I'm not trying to weasel in some rules lawyering, just stating that was the impression I got from the rules on the initial read some years ago.

DarkHound wrote:Then I went and looked, and the wording does seem to support you. "In these cases, the model only ever gets to make one saving throw, but it has the advantage of always using the best available save." Worded like that, it seems to say you are never forced to use worse than your best instead of actually requiring you always use your best. I suppose you are correct though.

EDIT: The only reason I bring this up is my first statement was from memory. I'm not trying to weasel in some rules lawyering, just stating that was the impression I got from the rules on the initial read some years ago.

That's a good point, but it also means that every shot they reflect is going to be AP3 or higher.

Tsilber wrote:IMO Putting a lord in a barge... he gets blown out, he gets shot to hell and he fails his get up roll.

Except this can't happen. It is a transport like any other, he can't get blown out of it. And a vehicle moving Flat Out is a lot harder to destroy than a guy on foot, even in a unit, especially given Symbiotic Repair and the nature of the vehicle damage table.

Godless-Mimicry wrote:

Tsilber wrote:IMO Putting a lord in a barge... he gets blown out, he gets shot to hell and he fails his get up roll.

Except this can't happen. It is a transport like any other, he can't get blown out of it. And a vehicle moving Flat Out is a lot harder to destroy than a guy on foot, even in a unit, especially given Symbiotic Repair and the nature of the vehicle damage table.

I'll give you the benefit of the doupt, quatum shielding and being able to make sweep attack while moving flat out is pretty sick. But if your moving flat out, and only making THREE 4+ attack rolls, then it seems like a big waste of a necron overlord.

Once quantum shielding is down, the ship is paper, thats also open topped..... A twin linked Auto cannon can drop it, even with it moving flat out. The symbiotic does nothing against 5 or 6 rolled on the pen chart.

I am not dismissing it by any means. I like the model a lot also. But I still stand by my "Safety in Numbers" suggestion.

Gah. For some reason I hadn't realized that the you could still do sweep attacks moving flat out.

...

It's telling how nasty that combo is that not even moving flat out I've been able to kill at least min 1 vehicle before the Barge got taken out. Now that I know I can move flat out (and get the cover save for it)...

Also, for those worried about your HQ getting killed after the Barge goes down... I had Zahnrekh have his Barge explode, then have roughly 1/3 of my opponent's army fire at him. Didn't take a single wound, past his pinning test, everything, and then he proceeded to assault the same guys that wrecked his Barge the next turn.

Ruan wrote:Gah. For some reason I hadn't realized that the you could still do sweep attacks moving flat out.

...

It's telling how nasty that combo is that not even moving flat out I've been able to kill at least min 1 vehicle before the Barge got taken out. Now that I know I can move flat out (and get the cover save for it)...

Also, for those worried about your HQ getting killed after the Barge goes down... I had Zahnrekh have his Barge explode, then have roughly 1/3 of my opponent's army fire at him. Didn't take a single wound, past his pinning test, everything, and then he proceeded to assault the same guys that wrecked his Barge the next turn.

What were you playing against, if you dont mind me asking.

Succubus w/agoniser is the answer

Tsilber wrote:

Ruan wrote:Gah. For some reason I hadn't realized that the you could still do sweep attacks moving flat out.

...

It's telling how nasty that combo is that not even moving flat out I've been able to kill at least min 1 vehicle before the Barge got taken out. Now that I know I can move flat out (and get the cover save for it)...

Also, for those worried about your HQ getting killed after the Barge goes down... I had Zahnrekh have his Barge explode, then have roughly 1/3 of my opponent's army fire at him. Didn't take a single wound, past his pinning test, everything, and then he proceeded to assault the same guys that wrecked his Barge the next turn.

What were you playing against, if you dont mind me asking.

Space Marines, honestly don't know if it was of a particular flavor or vanilla. Still rather new to the game. It was a scout cycle list with Space Marine scouts on bikes all over the place. Obviously there wasn't exactly high AP in his list, so Zahndrekh always got his 2+ armor save. Otherwise it would've been a much different story. Ended up losing due to essentially getting outmaneuvered and having my Immortals swept on an Objective mission. Didn't help that my Lychguard w/ Obyron ended up mishaping off the table and into reserves due to an unlucky Deep Strike via his special Veil of Darkness.

Still though, in another game I had Anrakyr taking fire from high AP weapons. Between him consistently getting into assaults (and killing people) as well as getting up no less than twice when he died from Ever-Living, plus him using my opponent's tank's weapons against him... and that's after him having taken out a Dreadnaught turn one (opponent drop-podded it right in front of his Command Barge - he's not going to make -that- mistake again).

--

I have yet to win a game with Necron yet (which I blame on inexperience), but I've definitely been enjoying playing them.

So what about a few lych guard and a necron lord, warscythe and res orb.

The only reason I think I like that unit is that the res orb is only really useful for models that cost a lot.

I figure the 35 points (adding 5 because the lord is no better than a lych guard with scythe but costs 5 points more) is worth it if you can make one extra save on any of the guys. Also the advantage of having a warscythe is that you get some anti tank.

Tomb World Chen'ek has finally awoken and it is not ran by an Overlord but the master program CKO! (Final Gift of the Ctan ) I said I was going to come back and leave some comments after reading and digesting the codex, I think people are over exagerating some things.

CKO wrote:Look on page 3 Mat Ward will tell you that they suck in melee so if you want an army that is ok-good in every phase its called Marines. How do you complain about cc when necrons never had it? So what is there to miss?

I agree that I 2 makes the army overall bad in cc, however you can still have powerful cc units. 2 Necron Lords with scythes and orb in a Ghost Ark with 8 warriors has the potential to beat most things in cc. Not to mention the unit will kill tanks with ease especially the immobilized ones. (All of those glances from the necron shooting phase will pay off) Or you can make large squads and be the envy of IG players who wish commissars had power fist as the lords cannot be singled out. The goal of our cc is to tie up units.

CKO wrote:People are underestimating quantom shield, in a nerdy voice like my own "If they pen you than the bonus is gone!", well let me tell you a secret if they pen your open top vehicle than not only will the bonus be gone but theres a 50% chance the vehicle is gone aswell, so when I lose the shield I will consider myself lucky because that means the vehicle is still alive.

I dont think anyone truly mention this as a weakness but alot of people try to down play how good it really is. Imagine its turn 2 or 3 and you you just pen 3-4 of his tanks making them lose their quantom shields, and in your next turn they proceed to activate a solar pulse and your not able to get in range of the squishy av 11 open top vehicle. Not to mention living metal is like a poor's man fortitiude.

CKO wrote:Long Range Fire Power

We have long range fire power infact we can have some of the best but why make an army do something it is not naturally intended to do? If you give walkers the tl heavy gauss cannon than fill your list with cryptek lances, Heavy Destroyers, and doomsday ark than you can take out most targets with ease.

The necrons weaknesses are not as profound as the web is making it seem.

We have long range fire power infact we can have some of the best but why make an army do something it is not naturally intended to do? If you give walkers the tl heavy gauss cannon than fill your list with cryptek lances, Heavy Destroyers, and doomsday ark than you can take out most targets with ease.

The necrons weaknesses are not as profound as the web is making it seem.

I tend to agree. I think the I2 is being way overplayed and the resiliency is being under played. Having played my share of Dark Eldar I can tell you have superior initiate will only take you so far. People seem to forget that we now have RP ALL THE TIME, unless the unit gets wiped out. Moral of the story, scrap the MSU. I'm embarrassed how many MSU lists I've already seen in the Army List section (speaking specifically of Necron lists of course). Making a MSU list directly ignores one of the most important features of the army.

I think it's going to take some time for people to break out of their preconceived notions, but with time you will see some very effective, and diverse, builds come out of this codex.

ShadarLogoth wrote:I'm embarrassed how many MSU lists I've already seen in the Army List section (speaking specifically of Necron lists of course). Making a MSU list directly ignores one of the most important features of the army.

An entire army of MSU Necrons? Yeah, that' stupid.

A regularly robust army that also includes two 5 man Warrior squads? That's just good thinking. 5 man Warrior squads are amazing in objective games if there's a regular army around them.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

I tend to agree. I think the I2 is being way overplayed and the resiliency is being under played. Having played my share of Dark Eldar I can tell you have superior initiate will only take you so far. People seem to forget that we now have RP ALL THE TIME, unless the unit gets wiped out. Moral of the story, scrap the MSU. I'm embarrassed how many MSU lists I've already seen in the Army List section (speaking specifically of Necron lists of course). Making a MSU list directly ignores one of the most important features of the army.

By not going for MSU, you do neglect a whole lot of ranged high S damage though...basically, you trade offense (lances) for defense (a 5+++).

DarknessEternal wrote:

ShadarLogoth wrote:I'm embarrassed how many MSU lists I've already seen in the Army List section (speaking specifically of Necron lists of course). Making a MSU list directly ignores one of the most important features of the army.

An entire army of MSU Necrons? Yeah, that' stupid.

A regularly robust army that also includes two 5 man Warrior squads? That's just good thinking. 5 man Warrior squads are amazing in objective games if there's a regular army around them.

True, although I think I might still lean towards the one group of 10. I guess it largely depends on what else is in the army. But yeah what I was primarily referring to is entire MSU armies. Certain units, FOs, Warriors and Immortals in particular, become much hardier when they are maxed out IMHO. Also, dropping a Res Orb or Cryptet with unit multiplier abilities into a larger unit is obviously much more effect use of the points.

An entire army of MSU Necrons? Yeah, that' stupid.

A regularly robust army that also includes two 5 man Warrior squads? That's just good thinking. 5 man Warrior squads are amazing in objective games if there's a regular army around them.

I'd agree with this. At 2k, especially playing a NoVa or similar format, six troop choices is pretty standard. Having two min Warriors hide in reserves for back objectives is a good idea.

I think Crons will befuddle the MEQ crowd because of the "omg my guys don't do everything well" mentality that power armor creates. Necrons are more akin to Eldar in that the units are specialized and require synergy and support. Using speed bumps and having some solid counter assault will really help against blitzing armies for those who, like me, are going to be running footcrons.

Sasori wrote:

DarkHound wrote:Here's an interesting option: I believe you can opt to save on your Invulnerable even when your armor save is available, thus activating the reflection.

No. You have to take the best available save.

Isn't that a bit subjective? If, in my opinion at the time of being shot, the 4+ reflection is better then the 3+, does that not make it the best save available?

Honest question, as I don't think there has ever been a situation in the past where the invulnerable would arguably be the better save (when the #+ isn't better).