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I like the book a lot and as a veteran player, the only massive hole I can see in Necrons is CC.

They are very well equipped to deal with anything else.

Saying that though, the Necron Lychguard are really scary, even though they are a lot of points.

I have been reading and reading the codex for two days now and I'm still shaking my head. I have also built a few lists and find myself floored on how elite and points heavy this army is along with how fragile it seems to be. Is there a chance that this codex is made to fit heavily into 6th ed and that is why I'm having issue with this book and finding an all comers competitive aspect. Don't get me wrong I love the ideas of the synergies that have been setup but the point costs are not up to par with 5th ed armies imo. This book feels like a weaker version of DE with poor/gimmicky AT. Normally I have no issue reading a new codex and building a list I feel comfortable with and to find out that it is close to what people are posting online a few months later. I'm just not grasping how they fit to counter or contend with the late 5th ed meta.

Balor wrote:I have been reading and reading the codex for two days now and I'm still shaking my head. I have also built a few lists and find myself floored on how elite and points heavy this army is along with how fragile it seems to be. Is there a chance that this codex is made to fit heavily into 6th ed and that is why I'm having issue with this book and finding an all comers competitive aspect. Don't get me wrong I love the ideas of the synergies that have been setup but the point costs are not up to par with 5th ed armies imo. This book feels like a weaker version of DE with poor/gimmicky AT. Normally I have no issue reading a new codex and building a list I feel comfortable with and to find out that it is close to what people are posting online a few months later. I'm just not grasping how they fit to counter or contend with the late 5th ed meta.

It could be that...or you are just bad at writing lists.
What are you using?

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Balor wrote:I have been reading and reading the codex for two days now and I'm still shaking my head. I have also built a few lists and find myself floored on how elite and points heavy this army is along with how fragile it seems to be. Is there a chance that this codex is made to fit heavily into 6th ed and that is why I'm having issue with this book and finding an all comers competitive aspect. Don't get me wrong I love the ideas of the synergies that have been setup but the point costs are not up to par with 5th ed armies imo. This book feels like a weaker version of DE with poor/gimmicky AT. Normally I have no issue reading a new codex and building a list I feel comfortable with and to find out that it is close to what people are posting online a few months later. I'm just not grasping how they fit to counter or contend with the late 5th ed meta.

It could be that...or you are just bad at writing lists.
What are you using?

hahaha Funny guy. I have been using excel but I did good in Ard boys for the last three years so I seem to be doing something right. But this is a very different beast than Orks or BT or even the old Necron codex.

hahaha Funny guy. I have been using excel but I did good in Ard boys for the last three years so I seem to be doing something right. But this is a very different beast than Orks or BT or even the old Necron codex.

The game isn't really made for 2500 so I am not surprised that you are finding things a bit unbalanced. Even then, what is your main issue with AV 13 spam? Even 3 units of Long Fangs or 3 Psyfleman are going to average 1-2 pens a turn. That isn't enough to stop 9+ AV 13 vehicles with massive firepower.

This is more of a mini-rant compared to my usual post, I know I should see this thread as Necron Weaknesses but for some odd reason I see it as Necron Complaints. I dont want to say much because I havent doved into the book like I want to but, I see alot of potential and the book is good but I dont think people will put in the time and effort that it will take to become a good necron player, especially when the one main weakness is obvious.

Ranting Starts!

Look on page 3 Mat Ward will tell you that they suck in melee so if you want an army that is ok-good in every phase its called Marines. How do you complain about cc when necrons never had it? So what is there to miss?

People are underestimating quantom shield, in a nerdy voice like my own "If they pen you than the bonus is gone!", well let me tell you a secret if they pen your open top vehicle than not only will the bonus be gone but theres a 50% chance the vehicle is gone aswell, so when I lose the shield I will consider myself lucky because that means the vehicle is still alive.

Ranting Ends

I have a question would I be considered a troll if I try to counter certain comments?

No, counter away.

I am a noob when it comes to the rules of tabletop, I mostly have stuck to reading 40K, etc.

But, what about Hyperlogical Strategy from Imotekh the Stormlord, where an army that includes him seizes the initiative on a roll of 4+. Does that mean when you start a CC battle you have a 50/50 chance of getting first hit? Or is that for something else entirely that I am missing. Honest question.

People will still probably call you a troll regardless for doing so... but then again, such is the internet. Obviously, if you do not agree, you must be a troll. But so long as you have reasoned out arguments that actually make sense, you'll never hear it from me.

I do agree with the bit on Quantum Shielding. Considering it -does- require a penetrating hit to force it to go away, if I still have a vehicle afterward I essentially count myself lucky.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Krilk wrote:I am a noob when it comes to the rules of tabletop, I mostly have stuck to reading 40K, etc.

But, what about Hyperlogical Strategy from Imotekh the Stormlord, where an army that includes him seizes the initiative on a roll of 4+. Does that mean when you start a CC battle you have a 50/50 chance of getting first hit? Or is that for something else entirely that I am missing. Honest question.

Nice though that would be...

Well, really. Still a nice ability.

At the beginning of the game, if your opponent is going to go first, and you do not want him to, you may attempt to 'sieze the initiative'. Normally that requires a roll of a 6. That rule makes it a 4+.

Potentially important to get that those first, winnowing down shots into your opponent.

Ruan wrote:Automatically Appended Next Post:

Krilk wrote:I am a noob when it comes to the rules of tabletop, I mostly have stuck to reading 40K, etc.

But, what about Hyperlogical Strategy from Imotekh the Stormlord, where an army that includes him seizes the initiative on a roll of 4+. Does that mean when you start a CC battle you have a 50/50 chance of getting first hit? Or is that for something else entirely that I am missing. Honest question.

Nice though that would be...

Well, really. Still a nice ability.

At the beginning of the game, if your opponent is going to go first, and you do not want him to, you may attempt to 'sieze the initiative'. Normally that requires a roll of a 6. That rule makes it a 4+.

Potentially important to get that those first, winnowing down shots into your opponent.

More importantly, it means that you get to react to how your opponent sets up, and then get to shoot at them.

kenshin620 wrote:

punkow wrote:

People keep ignoring the Jump Infantry designation. How can you not admit that it's a huge factor?

Well... IMHO because it is not a so huge factor... how do you use the praetorians? as lone assault unit? well... they're going to be shredde to pieces before reaching enemy line... As a counter-charge unit? well I think the lychguard perform that role much better... If the codex was filled with amazing fast-moving assault capable units, praetorian could perform a decent role... but crons are a shooty army so they're going to be alone in the assault...

I agree, especially with I2. Even orks and guardsmen can get some chances to poke at them. If they're going to be used in conjunction with wraiths, mind as well get more wraiths

Wraiths don't get power weapons. And no, rending will NOT make up for the lack of power weapons. It didn't in the last codex, and it won't in this one. Wraith wings were effective because you threw so many wounds they couldn't save them all. Praetorians deny them the save in the first place and avoid the whole "oh crap, they made all their saves. now what?" situations wraith wings ran into. And yes I feel the synergy between these two units is incredibly important. The wraiths will keep all the enemy models from going before the praetorians, and the praetorians kill models dead reliably.

And yes, I would absolutely use the praetorians as a mobile target, up in front of everything else if it was the best way to use them that game. If they would best serve as a counter-assault unit, then they would get used that way. Part of their power is in how flexible their movement makes them compared to the lych guard, who can only be used defensively or with a night scythe (which makes them an extremely obvious target).

Praetorians will be as dangerous as jump troops in other armies. No less (barring hordes...mc's...etc). And in some cases, far more.

Arandmoor wrote:

kenshin620 wrote:

punkow wrote:

People keep ignoring the Jump Infantry designation. How can you not admit that it's a huge factor?

Well... IMHO because it is not a so huge factor... how do you use the praetorians? as lone assault unit? well... they're going to be shredde to pieces before reaching enemy line... As a counter-charge unit? well I think the lychguard perform that role much better... If the codex was filled with amazing fast-moving assault capable units, praetorian could perform a decent role... but crons are a shooty army so they're going to be alone in the assault...

I agree, especially with I2. Even orks and guardsmen can get some chances to poke at them. If they're going to be used in conjunction with wraiths, mind as well get more wraiths

Wraiths don't get power weapons. And no, rending will NOT make up for the lack of power weapons. It didn't in the last codex, and it won't in this one. Wraith wings were effective because you threw so many wounds they couldn't save them all. Praetorians deny them the save in the first place and avoid the whole "oh crap, they made all their saves. now what?" situations wraith wings ran into. And yes I feel the synergy between these two units is incredibly important. The wraiths will keep all the enemy models from going before the praetorians, and the praetorians kill models dead reliably.

And yes, I would absolutely use the praetorians as a mobile target, up in front of everything else if it was the best way to use them that game. If they would best serve as a counter-assault unit, then they would get used that way. Part of their power is in how flexible their movement makes them compared to the lych guard, who can only be used defensively or with a night scythe (which makes them an extremely obvious target).

Praetorians will be as dangerous as jump troops in other armies. No less (barring hordes...mc's...etc). And in some cases, far more.

However, you're pouring a fair amount of points into those 2 units (200 for a minimal Praetorian squad, and 135 for 3 Wraiths with Particle Whips). The Praetorians really rely on the Wraiths to be effective, and if the Wraiths get tied up or wiped out then the Praetorians will suffer. Really, there's just a lot of ways in which the perfect-world synergy of Wraiths + Praetorians can go wrong. Although if you can pull it off then I'm sure it would be epic.

ghost ark drives up.

18 guass flayer shots

9 hits,

1 1/2 glances

Cryptek staff of str 8

ghost arks side thingys


Seems like not having a couple amazing anti tank units is not a big deal. EVERYTHING in the list is potentially dangerous to Armor.

Scarabs
Guass cannons
Walker
Warscythes turning crons into MC
and then lets not forget... Mono's win most amor vs armor wars...

Andilus Greatsword wrote:

Arandmoor wrote:

kenshin620 wrote:

punkow wrote:

People keep ignoring the Jump Infantry designation. How can you not admit that it's a huge factor?

Well... IMHO because it is not a so huge factor... how do you use the praetorians? as lone assault unit? well... they're going to be shredde to pieces before reaching enemy line... As a counter-charge unit? well I think the lychguard perform that role much better... If the codex was filled with amazing fast-moving assault capable units, praetorian could perform a decent role... but crons are a shooty army so they're going to be alone in the assault...

I agree, especially with I2. Even orks and guardsmen can get some chances to poke at them. If they're going to be used in conjunction with wraiths, mind as well get more wraiths

Wraiths don't get power weapons. And no, rending will NOT make up for the lack of power weapons. It didn't in the last codex, and it won't in this one. Wraith wings were effective because you threw so many wounds they couldn't save them all. Praetorians deny them the save in the first place and avoid the whole "oh crap, they made all their saves. now what?" situations wraith wings ran into. And yes I feel the synergy between these two units is incredibly important. The wraiths will keep all the enemy models from going before the praetorians, and the praetorians kill models dead reliably.

And yes, I would absolutely use the praetorians as a mobile target, up in front of everything else if it was the best way to use them that game. If they would best serve as a counter-assault unit, then they would get used that way. Part of their power is in how flexible their movement makes them compared to the lych guard, who can only be used defensively or with a night scythe (which makes them an extremely obvious target).

Praetorians will be as dangerous as jump troops in other armies. No less (barring hordes...mc's...etc). And in some cases, far more.

However, you're pouring a fair amount of points into those 2 units (200 for a minimal Praetorian squad, and 135 for 3 Wraiths with Particle Whips). The Praetorians really rely on the Wraiths to be effective, and if the Wraiths get tied up or wiped out then the Praetorians will suffer. Really, there's just a lot of ways in which the perfect-world synergy of Wraiths + Praetorians can go wrong. Although if you can pull it off then I'm sure it would be epic.

Wraiths with Particle whips? Now that's something.

King Pariah wrote:

Andilus Greatsword wrote:

Arandmoor wrote:

kenshin620 wrote:

punkow wrote:

People keep ignoring the Jump Infantry designation. How can you not admit that it's a huge factor?

Well... IMHO because it is not a so huge factor... how do you use the praetorians? as lone assault unit? well... they're going to be shredde to pieces before reaching enemy line... As a counter-charge unit? well I think the lychguard perform that role much better... If the codex was filled with amazing fast-moving assault capable units, praetorian could perform a decent role... but crons are a shooty army so they're going to be alone in the assault...

I agree, especially with I2. Even orks and guardsmen can get some chances to poke at them. If they're going to be used in conjunction with wraiths, mind as well get more wraiths

Wraiths don't get power weapons. And no, rending will NOT make up for the lack of power weapons. It didn't in the last codex, and it won't in this one. Wraith wings were effective because you threw so many wounds they couldn't save them all. Praetorians deny them the save in the first place and avoid the whole "oh crap, they made all their saves. now what?" situations wraith wings ran into. And yes I feel the synergy between these two units is incredibly important. The wraiths will keep all the enemy models from going before the praetorians, and the praetorians kill models dead reliably.

And yes, I would absolutely use the praetorians as a mobile target, up in front of everything else if it was the best way to use them that game. If they would best serve as a counter-assault unit, then they would get used that way. Part of their power is in how flexible their movement makes them compared to the lych guard, who can only be used defensively or with a night scythe (which makes them an extremely obvious target).

Praetorians will be as dangerous as jump troops in other armies. No less (barring hordes...mc's...etc). And in some cases, far more.

However, you're pouring a fair amount of points into those 2 units (200 for a minimal Praetorian squad, and 135 for 3 Wraiths with Particle Whips). The Praetorians really rely on the Wraiths to be effective, and if the Wraiths get tied up or wiped out then the Praetorians will suffer. Really, there's just a lot of ways in which the perfect-world synergy of Wraiths + Praetorians can go wrong. Although if you can pull it off then I'm sure it would be epic.

Wraiths with Particle whips? Now that's something.

I give my wraiths Lashes of submission

A few of the things I have noticed in playing against the crons, as tau.

1) The fact that their basic troops only have a 4+ armor and WBB means that the basic Fireknives configs on suits can pop whole squads and negate WBB.

2) Broadsides make short work of av13/14 vehicles, and because of the open-topped vehicles of necrons a 3+ is all that's required to wreck/explode a vehicle.

Surmise: Tau should be fine, with the exception of possibly taking BSZ on a few high power models.

Adderfist wrote:A few of the things I have noticed in playing against the crons, as tau.

You can't negate Reanimation Protocol.

Sure you can-- by killing the whole squad, which is what he was referring to.

I played a 1750 pt game with my Necrons against Lash CSM tonight. One thing I'll say is the Overlord/Command Barge combo is probably the most reliably hard-hitting combination in the Codex. If you see these while playing Necrons, I'd say focus on taking these out before they start Sweep Attacking/assaulting your vehicles left and right. I'm using two Barges, one with Anrakyr, one with a Warscythe/Weave/Shifter/Tachyon Overlord..together they're over 500 points, but they can take and give a lot of damage--decidedly more than a Monolith.

Speaking of Monoliths: keep them at arm's reach and they won't be too big a threat. Prioritize the easy kills first...even 2-3 Monoliths can't put out much damage unsupported.

Sorry, I have this image of Necrons being a footslogging army. This new mech scene doesn't look terribly strong and I'm having a hard time assuming it is the norm. However my point still stands: at 24" it would take 558 points worth of Fireknives (Plas/Mis, right?) to kill 130 points of Warriors standing out of cover. If the squad has cover, than even the maximum amount of Fireknives in Rapid Fire range would inflict 7.47 wounds. 2 of them get back up, and the Ghost Ark should add another 2 to the squad. 558 points to kill 39.

to reiterate something another guy said on page 2....NECRONS HAVE Anti tank at range!

take 10 crypteks with Harbinger of destruction for 35 pts and you get 36" str 8 ap 2 assault 1 bas asses. Whats more you can 2 of them per warrior/immortal/lych guard unit to hide them in some abalative wounds. (5 per royal court and each royal court can add a dude to thos eunit types)

you can also take the crypteks with the 24" range assault 4 haywire grenades....gotta love that!

tachyon arrows in a unit with a chronmeter so it can reroll! golden!

Theorius wrote:to reiterate something another guy said on page 2....NECRONS HAVE Anti tank at range!

take 10 crypteks with Harbinger of destruction for 35 pts and you get 36" str 8 ap 2 assault 1 bas asses. Whats more you can 2 of them per warrior/immortal/lych guard unit to hide them in some abalative wounds. (5 per royal court and each royal court can add a dude to thos eunit types)

You can only take one type of each Cryptek per Royal Court. So max 2 Harbingers of Destruction, and you'll need to buy two Overlords to get them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Actually I might be mistaken there. The wording is you can take any number of one kind of Cryptek, but their "unique wargear options" can only be chosen once per Court. Since the Eldritch Lance comes default on all Harbingers of Destruction, I have to assume you can take multiple Crypteks each with a Lance. That...is...pretty awesome.

whigwam wrote:

Theorius wrote:to reiterate something another guy said on page 2....NECRONS HAVE Anti tank at range!

take 10 crypteks with Harbinger of destruction for 35 pts and you get 36" str 8 ap 2 assault 1 bas asses. Whats more you can 2 of them per warrior/immortal/lych guard unit to hide them in some abalative wounds. (5 per royal court and each royal court can add a dude to thos eunit types)

You can only take one type of each Cryptek per Royal Court. So max 2 Harbingers of Destruction, and you'll need to buy two Overlords to get them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Actually I might be mistaken there. The wording is you can take any number of one kind of Cryptek, but their "unique wargear options" can only be chosen once per Court. Since the Eldritch Lance comes default on all Harbingers of Destruction, I have to assume you can take multiple Crypteks each with a Lance. That...is...pretty awesome.

edit: you fixed your error.

and you are right it IS preatty awesome! the other thing is then you can hide 2 cryteks per squad like i said which is super awesome giving them a nice buffer of wounds and letting you split more shots vs having them all in 2 units with shoot me please signs on them.

Theorius wrote:

whigwam wrote:

Theorius wrote:to reiterate something another guy said on page 2....NECRONS HAVE Anti tank at range!

take 10 crypteks with Harbinger of destruction for 35 pts and you get 36" str 8 ap 2 assault 1 bas asses. Whats more you can 2 of them per warrior/immortal/lych guard unit to hide them in some abalative wounds. (5 per royal court and each royal court can add a dude to thos eunit types)

You can only take one type of each Cryptek per Royal Court. So max 2 Harbingers of Destruction, and you'll need to buy two Overlords to get them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Actually I might be mistaken there. The wording is you can take any number of one kind of Cryptek, but their "unique wargear options" can only be chosen once per Court. Since the Eldritch Lance comes default on all Harbingers of Destruction, I have to assume you can take multiple Crypteks each with a Lance. That...is...pretty awesome.

edit: you fixed your error.

and you are right it IS preatty awesome! the other thing is then you can hide 2 cryteks per squad like i said which is super awesome giving them a nice buffer of wounds and letting you split more shots vs having them all in 2 units with shoot me please signs on them.

Think I'll be taking 8 Lance Crypteks my next game! Can't believe I overlooked that.. As for the other two, I'm liking hiding Transmog. Crypteks with Gauss Immortals. Hit incoming assault/Melta units with Tremorstave/Seismic Crucible to keep them out of assault range, then gun 'em down with rapid fire S5/AP4. Or, if they do assault, you've got initiative since they're moving through Difficult Terrain (and if you've got Anrakyr, one unit of Immortals get counter-attack..not so bad CC for Necrons!). I'm using one or two of these units to protect Monoliths and set enemy units up for a Particle Whip or Gate.

Well, this is embarrassing.

I've realized that my calcs from before are actually quite flawed - I'm still learning the new necron 'dex, so I missed out a few things in regards to toughness and wounds (did not realize Wraiths had 2 wounds!). Going to do post the revized set, hopefully these are more accurate xP

I'll also include Preatorians, as per request from Arandmoor.

Again, this is only formula-based averages, and I'm using them just for interests sake - your mileage may vary :p

"Stalemate" situations are combats that go on for five or more combat phases.

*Assuming Necrons always get the charge, and assault is done in such a way that all models are able to contribute to the combat*

6 Wraiths (210)pts

30 Slugga Boyz with Powerklaw/Bosspole Nob (220pts)
Three rounds of combat, Orks win with 14 to 15 boyz and the nob left.

10 Terminators (400pts)
After 7(!) rounds of assault, the Wraiths emerge victorious, with about 3 remaining.

10 Assault Terminators with Lightning Claws(400pts)
Stalemate situation, terminators would eventually win with three to four surviving models.

10 Terminators With Thunder Hammers & Storm Shields (400pts)
Stalemate situation, but Terminatos would eventually win, with 2 to three surviving models.


6 Wraiths with Whip Coils(270pts)

30 Slugga Boyz with Powerklaw/Bosspole Nob (220pts)
Three rounds of combat, Wraiths win and Orks fall back, with 6 orks and a nob surviving, and 2 to 3 wraiths surviving.
Whip Coils really DO do change the tide!

10 Terminators (400pts)
Exactly the same as if fighting without Whip coils

10 Assault Terminators with Lightning Claws(400pts)
Stalemate situation, with three wraiths eventually surviving.

10 Terminators With Thunder Hammers & Storm Shields (400pts)
Similar to without whip coils - the advantage of the whip coils is slowly nullified by the Thunder Hammers.


20 Flayed Ones(260pts)

30 Slugga Boyz with Powerklaw/Bosspole Nob (220pts)
After two rounds of combat, Flayed Ones win, with 12 to 13 survivors.

10 Terminators (400pts)
After four rounds of combat, Flayed Ones win, with 11 survivors.

10 Assault Terminators with Lightning Claws(400pts)
After 5 assault rounds, Terminators win with 5 to 6 survivors.

10 Terminators With Thunder Hammers & Storm Shields (400pts)
Same results as standard terminators.


10 Lychguard(400pts)

30 Slugga Boyz with Powerklaw/Bosspole Nob (220pts)
After two rounds of combat, the Lychguard win, with 6 surviving models.

10 Assault Terminators with Lightning Claws(400pts)
Lychguard clean up shop in second combat phase, only having lost a single model.

10 Assault Terminators with Lightning Claws(400pts)
After two rounds of assault, Terminators win with only two total casualties.

10 Terminators With Thunder Hammers & Storm Shields (400pts)
Oh god, this is a pure stalemate situation. Eventually, and by this I mean it's possible this could last longer than a game, a lone Lychguard may survive, but it's a tossup.


10 Preatorians(400pts)

30 Slugga Boyz with Powerklaw/Bosspole Nob (220pts)
Preatorians kill 4 orks shooting into combat.
After six rounds of assault, Orks win, with 12 to 13 boyz left and the nob.

10 Terminators (400pts)
Preatorians kill 3 Terminators shooting into combat.
After three rounds of combat, Preatorians survive with 8 models remaining.

10 Assault Terminators with Lightning Claws(400pts)
Praetorians kill 3 Terminators shooting into combat.
After 7 drawn out assault phases, Preatorians win, with three models left.

10 Terminators With Thunder Hammers & Storm Shields (400pts)
Praetorians kill just under 2 terminators shooting into combat.
After 3 rounds of combat, Terminators win, with 5 surviving models.

Ok, I have a question here. How are the Praetorains surviving so long in combat. They don't have an Invul save against any of the terminator weapons.

DarkHound wrote:Sorry, I have this image of Necrons being a footslogging army. This new mech scene doesn't look terribly strong and I'm having a hard time assuming it is the norm. However my point still stands: at 24" it would take 558 points worth of Fireknives (Plas/Mis, right?) to kill 130 points of Warriors standing out of cover. If the squad has cover, than even the maximum amount of Fireknives in Rapid Fire range would inflict 7.47 wounds. 2 of them get back up, and the Ghost Ark should add another 2 to the squad. 558 points to kill 39.

And when all the FK's are all BS5 it's easy enough to wipe a squad. 2+ and 2+ means you can devastate squads.

Edit: out of cover 15.68 shots hit and wound. from a full 4 man HQ+leet squad

Sasori wrote:Ok, I have a question here. How are the Praetorains surviving so long in combat. They don't have an Invul save against any of the terminator weapons.

In general, their strength 5, AP 1 assault shots into combat really help thin the herd a bit. They will also strike first with their CC weapons (when fighting normal and TH/SS termies), which are str5 and power weapons. Include RP, and they hold.

For LC, the LC's need 5's to wound, which abates the issue of them striking before the praetorians somewhat.

Kharrak wrote:

Sasori wrote:Ok, I have a question here. How are the Praetorains surviving so long in combat. They don't have an Invul save against any of the terminator weapons.

In general, their strength 5, AP 1 assault shots into combat really help thin the herd a bit. They will also strike first with their CC weapons (when fighting normal and TH/SS termies), which are str5 and power weapons. Include RP, and they hold.

For LC, the LC's need 5's to wound, which abates the issue of them striking before the praetorians somewhat.

Did you include their re-rolls?

Ok, I have a question here. How are the Praetorains surviving so long in combat. They don't have an Invul save against any of the terminator weapons.

T5 is a knock to the head of S4 power attacks, even lightning claws, and a 5++ is not a reliable save against their shooting, knocking down the number that will last long enough to swing a powerfist which WILL wound reliably. Once those things are not an issue (See the results against the TH/SS) the Praetorians fare rather poorly, even with the charge.

Were the lychguard results with or without shields?