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im2randomghgh wrote:

Draigo wrote:How is it that people want to make stuff like rails guns more powerful? While were at it lets give the fire warriors range 48 large blast str 10 ap 1 that doesnt scatter, has stealth, ignore terrain etc etc.. sounds like how the necorn players wanted to keep the monolith from the old codex but make all their troops etc more powerful. Followed closely by the people whining a codex is op. good lord

We don't need it more powerful. Just game mechanics, it wouldn't work

Fluff wise, though...

Either way I'm happy with Str 10 AP 1, I was just arguing about whether or not D is more powerful than 10 because IT OBVIOUSLY IS!

So why not concern yourself with making fire warriors, vespids, kroot etc more viable? You know a balanced book.

Draigo wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Draigo wrote:How is it that people want to make stuff like rails guns more powerful? While were at it lets give the fire warriors range 48 large blast str 10 ap 1 that doesnt scatter, has stealth, ignore terrain etc etc.. sounds like how the necorn players wanted to keep the monolith from the old codex but make all their troops etc more powerful. Followed closely by the people whining a codex is op. good lord

We don't need it more powerful. Just game mechanics, it wouldn't work

Fluff wise, though...

Either way I'm happy with Str 10 AP 1, I was just arguing about whether or not D is more powerful than 10 because IT OBVIOUSLY IS!

So why not concern yourself with making fire warriors, vespids, kroot etc more viable? You know a balanced book.

It is vespid that need fixing. Firewarriors are decent enough, even if 8 or 9 points would make more sense, and kroot that go to ground in jungle/forest get termie saves...but vespid are just useless.

im2randomghgh wrote:Not just like Str X. With strength X there will be other rules for it because otherwise it would literally do nothing, it is not a rule. Str D is a rule however, and without any extra explanations can be used.

It really does mean over. It is for weapon too powerful to function with a numerical str value. It is basically what would happen if they wrote str 11+.

Nope. "str 11+" would not insta-kill a wraithlord.

So, sadly (for you) it does not "really mean over". It's a special rule. It does special things. If str D literally meant strength 11+, or 20, or 200, it would say so in the rule.

im2randomghgh wrote:

It is vespid that need fixing. Firewarriors are decent enough, even if 8 or 9 points would make more sense, and kroot that go to ground in jungle/forest get termie saves...but vespid are just useless.

you mean like

Vespid Stingiwngs
WS3 BS3 S3 T4 W1 I5 A2 Ld 9 Sv4+ 95pts (5 models)
Equipment:
Neutron Blaster (S5 AP3 Assault 2 Rg 12")
Tau Armor
Rending claws
Wings
Rules:
Hit and Run, Fleet, Skilled Flyer, Melee Attacks count as rending, Jump Pack

Squad may benefit from markerlights while the Sergeant is alive
Add up to 5 more stingwings..........+16pts/model
Sergeant may take:
Locator Beacon.............................+10pts
1 Member of the squad may replace his Neutron Blaster with:
Neutrino Flux beam.......................+15pts (S4 AP3 Template, the spray weakens the overall strength of the bolts while providing a larger surface area)
1 other member of the squad may replace his Neutron Blaster with:
TL Neutron Pistols (S5 AP3 Assault 2 Rg 6", +1 atk in CC)

dbsamurai wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

It is vespid that need fixing. Firewarriors are decent enough, even if 8 or 9 points would make more sense, and kroot that go to ground in jungle/forest get termie saves...but vespid are just useless.

you mean like

Vespid Stingiwngs
WS3 BS3 S3 T4 W1 I5 A2 Ld 9 Sv4+ 95pts (5 models)
Equipment:
Neutron Blaster (S5 AP3 Assault 2 Rg 12")
Tau Armor
Rending claws
Wings
Rules:
Hit and Run, Fleet, Skilled Flyer, Melee Attacks count as rending, Jump Pack

Squad may benefit from markerlights while the Sergeant is alive
Add up to 5 more stingwings..........+16pts/model
Sergeant may take:
Locator Beacon.............................+10pts
1 Member of the squad may replace his Neutron Blaster with:
Neutrino Flux beam.......................+15pts (S4 AP3 Template, the spray weakens the overall strength of the bolts while providing a larger surface area)
1 other member of the squad may replace his Neutron Blaster with:
TL Neutron Pistols (S5 AP3 Assault 2 Rg 6", +1 atk in CC)

I want to impregnate your rules for them

They're beautiful. If stingwings were like that, it'd be awesome.

What are people's opinions on fixing Fire Warriors by making Pathfinders a bit more useful?

Pathfinders - Xpts
BS - 4
WS - 3
S - 3
T - 3
W - 1
I - 2
A - 1
Ld - 7
Sv - 4+

Unit Composition - 4 Pathfinders and 1 Shas'Ui
Unit Type - Infantry

Wargear:
Pulse Carbine with Markerlight Target Designator
Photon Grenades

Special Rules:
Scouts
Unique Target Identification Protocol: Pathfinder units are trained to scout ahead and provide recon, as well as using their markerlights to designate multiple targets for elimination. Any Pathfinders who are firing their markerlights may choose to fire at any enemy unit, provided they can see it and it is in range, regardless of what their squad mates are firing at. Declare which enemy units are being targeted by which Pathfinders before rolling to hit.

<insert options (like up to 5 more pathfinders for Xpts here>

Pathfinders are supposed to be the eyes of the army, and are trusted to designate targets, yet they only have the skill of a standard fire warrior. Surely the troops you need most to be decent judges of distance will be trained as such, or at least have the technology for it (which can be explained away as being in the beta stage of field testing, being rolled out to those who need it after extensive alpha testing on veterans only).

With BS4, they can provide more reliable markerlights, with 6 Pathfinders from the current codex producing 3 markerlight hits, and 6 from this revision producing 4, and being able to produce them on up to 6 targets (with a little reliability, getting more reliable with fewer targets).

The main issue with Fire Warriors is that they need markerlight support to reach their potential, and being able to target seperate units without needing target locks (only available to the Shas'Ui or RR PFs currently) can be a great boon, allowing them to provide FWs with a few markerlights, and Crisis Suits etc. with a few, instead of having to provide one or the other with too many.

The lack of reliability when spread out also means it's harder to take advantage of, sure you could hit 6 targets with a markerlight each, but will you use them all? Do you want to risk missing the ones you really need to hit with? A unit of 8 tackling 3 units could potentially provide 2 squads of FWs with 2 markerlights each, and a squad of crisis suits with 4, chances are it'll be more like 1, 1, 3, but it's still something.

Up firewarrior squad size to 20, add emp grenades for free.
Let devilfish transport upto 20 + 2 drones.
Give devilfish "Dust off" upgrade; unit that disembarks may move, but may not assault.

Pathfinders, BS4, and may split fire with marker lights, stealth and stealth transport.

Marker light drones fire as their own unit, seperate in firing sequence and targeting from the unit they are attached to.

Larger squads for firewarrirors let more warriors take advantage of marker light hits. The "Dust Off" lets them spread out a bit and not get totally hosed by blasts.


Skyray needs some love too.

-Matt

Personally, I don't see anything wrong making the Hammerhead Railgun in a honking powerful weapon (S10 AP1 Lance, etc.), IIRC Zoanthropes can do the same thing at 18", and I believe theres is Melta. The Railgun should certainly be a more powerful weapon. You can only take 3 of them max, which means at best 3 dead targets a turn. Your opponent is probably fielding 5 times that number of vehicles given todays meta, so it wouldn't be particularly game-breaking.

chaos0xomega wrote:Personally, I don't see anything wrong making the Hammerhead Railgun in a honking powerful weapon (S10 AP1 Lance, etc.), IIRC Zoanthropes can do the same thing at 18", and I believe theres is Melta. The Railgun should certainly be a more powerful weapon. You can only take 3 of them max, which means at best 3 dead targets a turn. Your opponent is probably fielding 5 times that number of vehicles given todays meta, so it wouldn't be particularly game-breaking.

Actually, one mechanic I have always wanted to see represented was the fact that IRL, railguns get more powerful the further away you fire them from. Maybe after 72" it gains ordinance?

im2randomghgh wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:Personally, I don't see anything wrong making the Hammerhead Railgun in a honking powerful weapon (S10 AP1 Lance, etc.), IIRC Zoanthropes can do the same thing at 18", and I believe theres is Melta. The Railgun should certainly be a more powerful weapon. You can only take 3 of them max, which means at best 3 dead targets a turn. Your opponent is probably fielding 5 times that number of vehicles given todays meta, so it wouldn't be particularly game-breaking.

Actually, one mechanic I have always wanted to see represented was the fact that IRL, railguns get more powerful the further away you fire them from. Maybe after 72" it gains ordinance?

!? What I know of physics says that that shouldn't be possible...

chaos0xomega wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:Personally, I don't see anything wrong making the Hammerhead Railgun in a honking powerful weapon (S10 AP1 Lance, etc.), IIRC Zoanthropes can do the same thing at 18", and I believe theres is Melta. The Railgun should certainly be a more powerful weapon. You can only take 3 of them max, which means at best 3 dead targets a turn. Your opponent is probably fielding 5 times that number of vehicles given todays meta, so it wouldn't be particularly game-breaking.

Actually, one mechanic I have always wanted to see represented was the fact that IRL, railguns get more powerful the further away you fire them from. Maybe after 72" it gains ordinance?

!? What I know of physics says that that shouldn't be possible...

Hyper velocity weaponry fired on a ballistic trajectory.

Look it up.

IRL? really? well IRL theres no space elves, glittery blue rainbow birdmen, fish people, art collecting machine men, warp travel, sphess marheens, or anything of the sort sooo IRL just isn't a good enough reason. Ask Mephiston.. he dropped a building on himself and came out UBER!

Draigo wrote:IRL? really? well IRL theres no space elves, glittery blue rainbow birdmen, fish people, art collecting machine men, warp travel, sphess marheens, or anything of the sort sooo IRL just isn't a good enough reason. Ask Mephiston.. he dropped a building on himself and came out UBER!

Well railguns DO exist in real life, and so we can draw parallels.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Draigo wrote:IRL? really? well IRL theres no space elves, glittery blue rainbow birdmen, fish people, art collecting machine men, warp travel, sphess marheens, or anything of the sort sooo IRL just isn't a good enough reason. Ask Mephiston.. he dropped a building on himself and came out UBER!

Well railguns DO exist in real life, and so we can draw parallels.

Only as far as you can draw spaceship warfare and bioships. You have no idea how a rail gun would effect "living metal" or any other fictional material.

Draigo wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Draigo wrote:IRL? really? well IRL theres no space elves, glittery blue rainbow birdmen, fish people, art collecting machine men, warp travel, sphess marheens, or anything of the sort sooo IRL just isn't a good enough reason. Ask Mephiston.. he dropped a building on himself and came out UBER!

Well railguns DO exist in real life, and so we can draw parallels.

Only as far as you can draw spaceship warfare and bioships. You have no idea how a rail gun would effect "living metal" or any other fictional material.

But we DO know how they travel through the air, and how they affect flesh/stone etc.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Draigo wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Draigo wrote:IRL? really? well IRL theres no space elves, glittery blue rainbow birdmen, fish people, art collecting machine men, warp travel, sphess marheens, or anything of the sort sooo IRL just isn't a good enough reason. Ask Mephiston.. he dropped a building on himself and came out UBER!

Well railguns DO exist in real life, and so we can draw parallels.

Only as far as you can draw spaceship warfare and bioships. You have no idea how a rail gun would effect "living metal" or any other fictional material.

But we DO know how they travel through the air, and how they affect flesh/stone etc.

So you know one known variable in the equation.. That doesnt solve an equation outside of theoretical math classes lol but even then the answer is an unknown value of something like -a^3 lol

Draigo wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Draigo wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Draigo wrote:IRL? really? well IRL theres no space elves, glittery blue rainbow birdmen, fish people, art collecting machine men, warp travel, sphess marheens, or anything of the sort sooo IRL just isn't a good enough reason. Ask Mephiston.. he dropped a building on himself and came out UBER!

Well railguns DO exist in real life, and so we can draw parallels.

Only as far as you can draw spaceship warfare and bioships. You have no idea how a rail gun would effect "living metal" or any other fictional material.

But we DO know how they travel through the air, and how they affect flesh/stone etc.

So you know one known variable in the equation.. That doesnt solve an equation outside of theoretical math classes lol but even then the answer is an unknown value of something like -a^3 lol

Umm...the original point was that they get more powerful using a ballistic trajectory at a greater distance. Which they do. Not sure what you're talking about.

Sounds like the weapon that get stronger as it gets farther already exists.. its called a conversion beamer

chaos0xomega wrote:Personally, I don't see anything wrong making the Hammerhead Railgun in a honking powerful weapon (S10 AP1 Lance, etc.), IIRC Zoanthropes can do the same thing at 18", and I believe theres is Melta. The Railgun should certainly be a more powerful weapon. You can only take 3 of them max, which means at best 3 dead targets a turn. Your opponent is probably fielding 5 times that number of vehicles given todays meta, so it wouldn't be particularly game-breaking.

Not sure I agree with this. I think its fine the way it is. The reason zoanthropes have lance is because its at 18in, railguns are 72. I think that would be a little too powerful, unless you SERIOUSLY upped the points cost. iirc zoans dont have melta. You can take 9 railguns if you squad up the broadsides, and theyre twinlinked. Sure you can still only kill 3 vehicles a turn, but unless youre opponent if fielding 9 LRBTs or something, the rocket pods etc can take care of some of the more lighty armored targets.

Draigo wrote:Sounds like the weapon that get stronger as it gets farther already exists.. its called a conversion beamer

The difference eing that if you fired a railgun point blank it would still be 10-1, and if you used a ballistic trajectory you could easily be str D.

With the way it is now, you could potentially have a guardsman survive a direct hit from a railgun. Which just wouldn't happen. Check out this quote:

"One of their light walkers carried a weapon of lethal effect. It fired a form of ultra-high velocity projectile. I saw one of our tanks after having been hit by it. There was a small hole punched in either flank - one the projectile's entry point, the other its exit. The tiny munition had passed through the vehicle with such speed that everything within the hull not welded down had been sucked out through the exit hole. Including the crew. We never identified their bodies, for all that remained of them was a red stain upon the ground, extending some twenty metres from the wreck."

So you essentially want it like the death ray that can insta grease anything it shoots at? The prob is if you guys keep wanting power to creep up there will be another 4th eiditon where the entire line is made into SOB lol

Draigo wrote:So you essentially want it like the death ray that can insta grease anything it shoots at? The prob is if you guys keep wanting power to creep up there will be another 4th eiditon where the entire line is made into SOB lol

Well chances are you're not shooting anything from further than 72" unless it's apoc...

Also, I didn't say I actually wanted this, I just said it would be more accurate physics-wise.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Draigo wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Draigo wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Draigo wrote:IRL? really? well IRL theres no space elves, glittery blue rainbow birdmen, fish people, art collecting machine men, warp travel, sphess marheens, or anything of the sort sooo IRL just isn't a good enough reason. Ask Mephiston.. he dropped a building on himself and came out UBER!

Well railguns DO exist in real life, and so we can draw parallels.

Only as far as you can draw spaceship warfare and bioships. You have no idea how a rail gun would effect "living metal" or any other fictional material.

But we DO know how they travel through the air, and how they affect flesh/stone etc.

So you know one known variable in the equation.. That doesnt solve an equation outside of theoretical math classes lol but even then the answer is an unknown value of something like -a^3 lol

Umm...the original point was that they get more powerful using a ballistic trajectory at a greater distance. Which they do. Not sure what you're talking about.

A/ Railguns are real, and what im2random is saying is correct, although i'm not sure they go faster/do more damage as they go further.

B/ draigo: go on wikipedia, search 'railgun' and scroll down to the equations. read them, and then try to say "That doesnt solve an equation outside of theoretical math classes lol but even then the answer is an unknown value of something like -a^3 lol "

chaos0xomega wrote:Personally, I don't see anything wrong making the Hammerhead Railgun in a honking powerful weapon (S10 AP1 Lance, etc.), IIRC Zoanthropes can do the same thing at 18", and I believe theres is Melta. The Railgun should certainly be a more powerful weapon. You can only take 3 of them max, which means at best 3 dead targets a turn. Your opponent is probably fielding 5 times that number of vehicles given todays meta, so it wouldn't be particularly game-breaking.

the railgun is already the strongest weapon in the game. Zoanthropes have lance they dont have melta. Also, you can take 18 railguns maxed, 9 shots cause they're tl. I have a list like that, it kills any armor spam army.

The reason railguns gain velocity (and thus accelerate generating more force) when fired IN ATMOSPHERE is because gravity pulls them in a parabolic trajectory, so that like a spaceship slingshotting around the earth, at long rang a high velocity round accelerates into the gravity of the plannet. In essence it's like shooting a bullet past an electromagnet. the bullet curves thru the magnetic field and impacts with greater force than normal.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Avatar 720 wrote:What are people's opinions on fixing Fire Warriors by making Pathfinders a bit more useful?


Pathfinders are supposed to be the eyes of the army, and are trusted to designate targets, yet they only have the skill of a standard fire warrior. Surely the troops you need most to be decent judges of distance will be trained as such, or at least have the technology for it (which can be explained away as being in the beta stage of field testing, being rolled out to those who need it after extensive alpha testing on veterans only).

With BS4, they can provide more reliable markerlights, with 6 Pathfinders from the current codex producing 3 markerlight hits, and 6 from this revision producing 4, and being able to produce them on up to 6 targets (with a little reliability, getting more reliable with fewer targets).

GW will never give them BS4 though because of their whole "we have bad depth perception" excuse. The option then is to make them more like scouts with sniper rifles in an SM army. They're for identifying targets and striking as a vanguard unit. that's why I included their barrage launcher thing, it's the sort of thing that their scout move could really take advantage of against horde armies, because turn one they could be dropping templates on them. I agree too that there is need of greater markerlight support, but I think it would be better to spread it out. Give a few markerlights to a few squads to emphasize synergy, since at present you're placing all your eggs in one 8 man squad as far as markerlights go, or else giving marker drones to stealth teams, neither of which is very cost effective. Instead start giving everyone some markerlights, a little extra something to fire off if they need to, or marker drones so that squads can be their own markerlights. that would let pathfinders focus on being the "valkyrie's mark"ers, striking first and eliminating key elements of an opponants force like fire dragons

im2randomghgh wrote:

dbsamurai wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

I want to impregnate your rules for them

They're beautiful. If stingwings were like that, it'd be awesome.

I posted a whole codex on page 2...I find it's what makes stingwings useful. They're basically tau assault marines so they should be tau assault marines. Give them anti MEQ weapons and good CC and make them SCARY AS gak like assault marines are now.

GW will never give them BS4 though because of their whole "we have bad depth perception" excuse.

I already gave them a valid reason in the form of using new technology that has entered a wider testing stage, possibly a better targeting array.

Targeting arrays were previously kept for battlesuits, but after extensive field testing on veterans, they have been rolled out to Pathfinder teams for further testing.

Instant BS4 excuse.

Yes but targetting arrays are large and bulky (hence why they can't be taken by stealth suits). I'm not saying there aren't ways you could justify it, I'm just saying GW has said they never will do it. =/

dbsamurai wrote:Yes but targetting arrays are large and bulky (hence why they can't be taken by stealth suits). I'm not saying there aren't ways you could justify it, I'm just saying GW has said they never will do it. =/

Actually the targeting array CAN be taken on stealth suits,pg35 (each member may select one battlesuit support system). and on pg25 targeting array is listed as a battlesuit support system.

The railgun is the best gun the Tau have.

Want to make something players want? Make the Pulse rifle or carbine good.

(I've always liked the idea of making the rifle Assault 1/Heavy 2 and the carbine Assault 2.)

that sort of profile is a bit to complicated for the current direction GW is heading though. Making the carbine assault 2 however is a logical choice, after all its supposed to be viable for tau on the move, and right now it isn't.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:

dbsamurai wrote:Yes but targetting arrays are large and bulky (hence why they can't be taken by stealth suits). I'm not saying there aren't ways you could justify it, I'm just saying GW has said they never will do it. =/

Actually the targeting array CAN be taken on stealth suits,pg35 (each member may select one battlesuit support system). and on pg25 targeting array is listed as a battlesuit support system.

I thought targetting arrays were hard wired and stealth suits could only take hard points systems like drone controllers, and that if they did they all had to take the same one.

dbsamurai wrote:Yes but targetting arrays are large and bulky (hence why they can't be taken by stealth suits). I'm not saying there aren't ways you could justify it, I'm just saying GW has said they never will do it. =/

As previously mentioned, Stealth Suits can take TAs.

Just because they are currently big and bulky doesn't mean they can't be streamlined and integrated into helmets or specific equipment later on.

GW hasn't said anywhere they will never do it, they haven't even mentioned its size. On Battlesuits they mention it's a relatively new application of the same, previously only vehicle-mounted, technology. There is nothing that outright mentions the size. The fact that the arrays can be streamlined for battlesuit use speaks volumes about the capbility to the Tau to modify current technology, and with the enlisting of more alien races, there's nothing to say they can't pinch some of their ideas either.

I thought targetting arrays were hard wired and stealth suits could only take hard points systems like drone controllers, and that if they did they all had to take the same one.

HW TAs don't currently exist (also, you can get HW DCs, they aren't purely hard-point), they're hard-point support systems at the moment. Stealth Suits also have the condition that if one member takes a support system then they all have to take one, but it doesn't have to be the same one.