Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I dunno, I kinda thought the walk through the carnage on the citadel was particularly grimdark and creepy. But a lot of the bodies looked... weird. Some of them looked like manequins and whatnot.

I didn't really think about it at the time, but a lot of them were outright faceless. Anyone else pay closer attention to that bit?

dogma wrote:Getting synthetics and organics to coexist for a time doesn't disprove the idea that, eventually, the synthetics turn against their creators.

Even the Geth got along with the Quarians for a time.

The Quarians started it.

Anung Un Rama wrote:

dogma wrote:Getting synthetics and organics to coexist for a time doesn't disprove the idea that, eventually, the synthetics turn against their creators.

Even the Geth got along with the Quarians for a time.

The Quarians started it.

True, but it doesn't really matter who started it, what matters is who finishes it.

dogma wrote:Getting synthetics and organics to coexist for a time doesn't disprove the idea that, eventually, the synthetics turn against their creators.

Even the Geth got along with the Quarians for a time.

And I again point out: The solution to synthetics wiping out organics is to wipe out organics with synthetics?

I thought we were trying to prevent that from happening, minute details of the star child's pretty speech aside.

LordofHats wrote:
And I again point out: The solution to synthetics wiping out organics is to wipe out organics with synthetics?

I thought we were trying to prevent that from happening, minute details of the star child's pretty speech aside.

They are, they aren't wiping out all life. They wipe out the advanced races, basically the races with access to interstellar travel, and leave the rest alone. Its like pruning an overgrown bush.

Even putting aside the Star Child, and more importantly the Prothean who explicitly states this is true, 50,000 years isn't enough time, in an evolutionary sense, for bacteria to evolve into sentient beings.

If you want a speculative answer, the reality of the matter is that the Reapers don't want to fight synthetic life of their degree of advancement, so they cull organic populations in order prevent them from being developed (basically, star child lied, to a degree); while simultaneously using that life to add to their own diversity.

I feel the endings don't give enough closure. You don't really know what happens to your allies, you don't how their homeworlds are doing, I was left with an empty feeling watching the endings.

Rest of the game was good though.

They are, they aren't wiping out all life. They wipe out the advanced races, basically the races with access to interstellar travel, and leave the rest alone. Its like pruning an overgrown bush.

The solution to mass galactic genocide is a slightly smaller mass genocide? Sorry, not buying it. We don't prune a bush out of some noble sentiment that if we don't it will somehow destroy itself. We prune it to make it look pretty.

If you want a speculative answer, the reality of the matter is that the Reapers don't want to fight synthetic life of their degree of advancement, so they cull organic populations in order prevent them from being developed (basically, star child lied, to a degree); while simultaneously using that life to add to their own diversity.

Which is much better than what is presently stated. Though I'd shorten it to "Reapers afraid of being wiped out by organics cause their creators tried to do it to them so they cull the galaxy regularly to ensure it never has a chance of happening." Of course, that was the old community theory behind the Reapers circa ME1 (adapted from the Shapeshifters of DS9). Either of those options work better than "Our group of synthetics is going to genocide some of you so that some other possibly might exist group of synthetics doesn't wipe out all of you." That's just stupid.

I just don't understand how a bunch of writers can be sitting around discussing this and all agree to something like... this.

There wasn't one guy in the room who could stand up and go, "You guys are crazy. Let's have Shepard assault the Reapers on a space shark wielding a Krogan as a melee weapon and give the fans the ending they really want."

Or... um... you know what I mean.

I can make hard decisions and all that... but even KoToR had the option of a 'happy' ending. You guys remember how much WASN'T resolved at the end of that? They gave you a shiny picture and some text, and... that's about it.

But I guess Star Wars is a bit more cut and dry with all that stuff.

I don't know what I would 'rather' see... and I Loved the game up until the end. But that ending left me confused and upset. Not the good sort of thoughtful upset either, more just, "Damnit..."

The more I think about it, the more it pisses me off. IF the theorey about the whole Reaper indoctrination is not true, this is just a terrible, terrible ending which doesn't have anything to do with the rest of the game.
Shephard disproved the Starchild's argument about synthetic life several times over the course of the 3 games. Which alone would be enough for Shephard, as we came to know him, to stand up and kick that little bastard. (I tried to shot him btw, sadly it didn't work.)
Then there are the giant plotholes a lot of people already mentioned. The exploding relays, the crew of the Normandy, etc.

Would somebody explain why the Protheans look has changed so much?

I understand that they wanted to show a connection to the collectors, but the Collectors were completely bio-engineered by the Reapers using harvested Prothean, they don't need to look alike.

ME1 Prothean Statue


The ending is most probably a dream, but it's a bit cheeky for Bioware to leave such a crap tastic finally and possibly charge for the full thing.

Medium of Death wrote:I understand that they wanted to show a connection to the collectors, but the Collectors were completely bio-engineered by the Reapers using harvested Prothean, they don't need to look alike

Its called trading consistency for spectacle.

It makes a lot more sense to me that the Reapers are afraid for their own survival, so they created the culling cycles to wipe out anyone that could challenge them. The BS reason that synthetics will ultimately rebel against their creators, so this ultra powerful group of DIFFERENT synthetics are going to wipe out all organics to prevent that from happening.....makes NO sense whatsoever.

EDI mentions that she has code that mimics organic self-preservation instinct, and she is based on Reaper code, so it would make sense that the Reapers posses the same code, and share the same self-preservation instinct that we do. As a result, they don't want organics to create a better race of synthetics that could ultimately challenge them, so they cull advanced organic civilizations any time it looks like they might have done just that (IE the Geth, which toward the end of the game fully evolve via Reaper code into unshackled AI's like EDI).

Too bad that none of this is ever stated in the game, and that we can only speculate that this is the case. If BioWare has done one good thing in all of this, they have made us realize the depth of the material they have created. Only in comparison to the shallow and unsatisfactory endings can we fully appreciate exactly how deep the lore of this game world runs. Now that it's over, we have time to pour over the past 5 years of storytelling and really analyze it, and it was all prompted by these terrible endings. If the Indoctrination theory IS correct, I am forced to wonder if BioWare knew exactly what kind of response it would cause, and just how thoroughly their material would be picked apart in the search for answers........

I guess. Although it's more terrifying for a Humanoid race to be completely transformed into an Insectoid one. (In my mind at least)

Also those statues could explain how the Protheans were harvested.

Oh Bioware, you so crazy!

LordofHats wrote:
The solution to mass galactic genocide is a slightly smaller mass genocide? Sorry, not buying it. We don't prune a bush out of some noble sentiment that if we don't it will somehow destroy itself. We prune it to make it look pretty.

And why do you think a techno-organic super-race cares about organics at all? When you claim that something won't survive, you're really only claiming something you like will die (doesn't even have to be life in general, just life you like), at least on the scale being considered.

Why do we care about polar bears, tigers, and pandas? Or even just dogs and cats? Because they're pretty/cute.

LordofHats wrote:
Which is much better than what is presently stated. Though I'd shorten it to "Reapers afraid of being wiped out by organics cause their creators tried to do it to them so they cull the galaxy regularly to ensure it never has a chance of happening." Of course, that was the old community theory behind the Reapers circa ME1 (adapted from the Shapeshifters of DS9). Either of those options work better than "Our group of synthetics is going to genocide some of you so that some other possibly might exist group of synthetics doesn't wipe out all of you." That's just stupid.

You're talking about a "race" that is billions of years old. Individual races likely mean as much to them as individual lives do to us.

Honestly, I have a greater issue with why they're interested in our galaxy at all, given that they could have worked to explore others by now.

Either way, assuming their reproduction depends on organics (and it seems to), what they do makes sense. Prevent possible rivals from emerging, while producing new Reapers every cycle.

To be honest, I've thought ME has had major weaknesses since the Reapers were introduced, and I consider the outrage over this ending to be horribly misplaced. Its like people are trying to find excuses for buying this games despite the things they ignored in previous games.

Come to think of it, why didn't the reapers just Hibernate in the Omega four relay system with the Collectors?

Also, if the Reapers had come along a couple of thousand years earlier would Humanity have been spared?

If so, then that would leave Human with what, 50 000 + years of technological evolution.

I don't know how they would safe guard against Species without nearby Mass Relays developing their own form of FTL travel.

Medium of Death wrote:Come to think of it, why didn't the reapers just Hibernate in the Omega four relay system with the Collectors?

Also, if the Reapers had come along a couple of thousand years earlier would Humanity have been spared?

If so, then that would leave Human with what, 50 000 + years of technological evolution.

I don't know how they would safe guard against Species without nearby Mass Relays developing their own form of FTL travel.

Evolutionarily speaking, 50,000 years is REALLY not that long, and you also need to remember that the only reason we became such an advanced race technologically is because we found the Mass Relay and ran into the Turians. After that, we were inducted as a Citadel race and our technology advanced dramatically over night. Without the Turians, Asari and Salarians around to help us advance, it might have taken us 50,000 years to get from ancient times (say 3,000 years ago) to where the Asari are now. We would likely have been the dominant race of the cycle, discovering the Mass Relay and taking thousands of years to reverse engineer Mass Effect fields, then finding the Citadel and guiding other races we find into a galactic council. As it happens, we came into our own at the end of a cycle rather than the start of one.

dogma wrote:And why do you think a techno-organic super-race cares about organics at all? When you claim that something won't survive, you're really only claiming something you like will die (doesn't even have to be life in general, just life you like), at least on the scale being considered.

Why do we care about polar bears, tigers, and pandas? Or even just dogs and cats? Because they're pretty/cute.

The comparison would matter if the Catalyst didn't act like he was achieving some lofty and noble goal. If they didn't care about us I doubt they'd "nobly" kill us all so we won't kill ourselves. I'm not the one saying they care about us, the god child is!

You're talking about a "race" that is billions of years old. Individual races likely mean as much to them as individual lives do to us.

Honestly, I have a greater issue with why they're interested in our galaxy at all, given that they could have worked to explore others by now.

I don't see what this has to do with anything. In ME3 what we have been given is a race of techno-organic beings who have been "nobly" purging the galaxy of advanced life, aka genocide, for tens or even hundreds of thousands of years to protect the galaxy from being wiped out by some assumed species of synthetic lifeforms. That's stupid. If the Reapers are so advanced that we mean nothing to them, then why should they care if we wipe ourselves out? Protecting themselves makes sense but that's not what the ending gives us. It gives us a species that is nobly committing genocide to stop some supposed genocide that they think will happen if they don't commit theirs. That's stupid and nonsensical (and in no way hinted at or foreshadowed at any point in the ME series prior to ME3 at the least). EDIT: And its just made worse that stopping them means blowing up the galaxy and committing genocide! Crap shoot endings are great and all, and maybe more reflective of the real world, but this one is a huge WTF for a series that had painted itself as being a little more upbeat. This is an ending I'd expect from 40k, not Mass Effect.

Either way, assuming their reproduction depends on organics (and it seems to), what they do makes sense. Prevent possible rivals from emerging, while producing new Reapers every cycle.

Except that isn't what is stated. It makes sense but its not what we're told.

To be honest, I've thought ME has had major weaknesses since the Reapers were introduced, and I consider the outrage over this ending to be horribly misplaced. Its like people are trying to find excuses for buying this games despite the things they ignored in previous games.

The Reapers worked as a sort of Lovecraftian destroyer race as they were presented in ME1. It might not be your cup of tea but it worked from a straight forward story stance. ME2 did pretty much nothing with the concept but twist it into something more complex but chaotic and confusing and rather than straighten it out and make sense of it, ME3 just makes it more confusing. I'm not buying the whole noble genocide thing. Its dumb. Bioware is either about to pull the greatest storyline twist of all time (for an additional $10 ) or they just managed to craft and emotional and powerful return as storytellers just to screw themselves with the ending.

I don't understand the hatred against the Reapers concerning the ME2 story. I thought they were fine and still fairly consistent with the previous game.

Amaya wrote:I don't understand the hatred against the Reapers concerning the ME2 story. I thought they were fine and still fairly consistent with the previous game.

Because it mostly just built up a lot of questions and answered none of them, while at the same time twisting around a few things from ME1. If the Collectors were around, why did Soveriegn need the Geth to help him (remember that getting help from the Geth was Sovereign's back up plan because the signal meant to start the cycle didn't work do to Prothean interference). If the Collectors were around as a safety net, why weren't they used when the situation called for it? ME2's ending also features the Reapers flying back to the galaxy on their own power which kind of begs the question of why where the Collectors making one to begin with? If the Reapers could get back on their own and have such a technological superiority, why bother with their Citadel plan at all?

The Collectors being Protheans also just rubbed some people the wrong way. Why? IDK. I guess they figured that the Reapers just wiped everything out and would have no need to keep a bunch of pseudo-Protheans around?

EDIT: Really though I think its the opening of the game, where Shepard dies for pretty much no reason (well, he died so they could make a trailer that said he died and then they actually did it). That opening pissed a lot of people off and at that point they just weren't willing ti suspend disbelief and went looking for reasons to be pissed at the game, myself included.

Of course, ME3 does the same. If Catalyst was in the Citadel the whole time, what was the point of Sovereign in the first place? I'd also point out that if the Reapers goal is to cull organic life before it can create synthetic life and be destroyed by it, why didn't they destroy the Geth on sight? It seems like a logical step in achieving their goal. Can't have a bunch of synthetics flying around endanger future organics now can we? Oh wait, the Reapers fit that bill. That's why this ending makes no sense -_-

LordofHats wrote:

Amaya wrote:I don't understand the hatred against the Reapers concerning the ME2 story. I thought they were fine and still fairly consistent with the previous game.

Because it mostly just built up a lot of questions and answered none of them, while at the same time twisting around a few things from ME1. If the Collectors were around, why did Soveriegn need the Geth to help him (remember that getting help from the Geth was Sovereign's back up plan because the signal meant to start the cycle didn't work do to Prothean interference). If the Collectors were around as a safety net, why weren't they used when the situation called for it? ME2's ending also features the Reapers flying back to the galaxy on their own power which kind of begs the question of why where the Collectors making one to begin with? If the Reapers could get back on their own and have such a technological superiority, why bother with their Citadel plan at all?

Probably because there weren't enough Collectors to confront the Citadel Races one on one, with the implied indoctrinated Rachni destroyed in the Rachni War. And the Catalyst probably awakens when the Reaper Vanguad activates the Citadel Relay or when the Crucible linked to the Citadel. And the reason they use the Citadel Relay is explained in ME1. Also, it takes a great deal of time to travel by normal FTL back to the galaxy. I'm willing to bet it would take the same time to get to the galaxy as to create a new Reaper (from Humans) to replace Sovereign as the Vanguard. And the whole genocide thing is the same principle in Halo; to prevent an even bigger genocide by committing a smaller genocide. I mean, didn't the Allies do something similar in WWII (fire-bombing German/Japanese Cities, using nuclear weapons on Hiroshima and Nagasaki)?

Tadashi wrote: And the Catalyst probably awakens when the Reaper Vanguad activates the Citadel Relay or when the Crucible linked to the Citadel.

Why is he asleep then? Sovereign was supposed to watch the galaxy and call in the troops when the time came. The Catalyst could do the same thing and much better from the Citadel! And the margin of error would have been a lot lower with the vanguard on site.

And the reason they use the Citadel Relay is explained in ME1.

They give a reason, but the Reapers are so technologically advance why should they bother? In ME3 its clearly not a great obstacle. The combined fleet has iffy chances of winning the war against the Reapers. I suppose they could be trying to reduce their casualties, but then Sovereign's body provided a wealth of technology for the galaxy. Had he not gone and gotten killed the galaxy would have been in a worse position. He and the Geth alone managed to take the most strongly defended position in the Galaxy for a time, so a fleet of Reapers seems like they wouldn't have needed much more than brute force.

Also, it takes a great deal of time to travel by normal FTL back to the galaxy.

Obviously it didn't take them that long.

And the whole genocide thing is the same principle in Halo; to prevent an even bigger genocide by committing a smaller genocide.

And Halo handled the idea better. Master Chief doesn't turn around and say, "Well I guess we can't win after all, lets just do that thing you were gonna do." EDIT: Of course, Halo 3's story line isn't exactly spectacular. How nice of the Flood to just show up at the Arc so the Chief could wipe them out XD EDIT EDIT: Plus the idea was at the core of Halo's storyline. It just shows up in Mass Effect literally at the very end of the third game.

I mean, didn't the Allies do something similar in WWII (fire-bombing German/Japanese Cities, using nuclear weapons on Hiroshima and Nagasaki)?

There aren't really any rules in story telling, but a general guideline is "real life makes for poor fiction." An ending where everyone dies stopping themselves from being killed by something else that was killing everyone so something else else wouldn't kill them is stupid fiction for something of Mass Effects tone.

Like I said though, for numerous things that are relatively minor in ME2, a lot of people including me just got pissed and were no longer willing to hand wave things away and started looking for reasons not to like it. There's a reason I say I'm biased Many of these plot points if I were to just relax are over lookable or can be explained away naturally. But I'm not willing to suspend disbelief anymore when it comes to Bioware so I go through everything they do with a fine toothed comb and a box of oreos.

LordofHats wrote:

Tadashi wrote: And the Catalyst probably awakens when the Reaper Vanguad activates the Citadel Relay or when the Crucible linked to the Citadel.

Why is he asleep then? Sovereign was supposed to watch the galaxy and call in the troops when the time came. The Catalyst could do the same thing and much better from the Citadel! And the margin of error would have been a lot lower with the vanguard on site.

Probably because he had no reason to be awake. Most likely, the Catalyst oversees the 'harvest', but since he wasn't awakened until the Crucible linked to the Citadel, Harbinger took over. The Catalyst most likely told Harbinger to '...leave Shepard to me, you and Nazara have messed up so far...'.

And the reason they use the Citadel Relay is explained in ME1.

They give a reason, but the Reapers are so technologically advance why should they bother? In ME3 its clearly not a great obstacle. The combined fleet has iffy chances of winning the war against the Reapers. I suppose they could be trying to reduce their casualties, but then
Sovereign's body provided a wealth of technology for the galaxy. Had he not gone and gotten killed the galaxy would have been in a worse position. He and the Geth alone managed to take the most strongly defended position in the Galaxy for a time, so a fleet of Reapers seems like they wouldn't have needed much more than brute force.

It's because from the Citadel they could gain a strategic advantage at the center of the Mass Relay network, while gaining a tactical advantage by accessing information collected by the civilizations making use of it. And if Saren hadn't locked down the Relays, reinforcements would have arrived in minutes, and Sovereign and the Geth heretics wold have been overwhelmed. In ME3, I'm guessing that Harbinger decided to prioritize harvesting humanity, their agents being the most dangerous to the Reapers, while suppressing the other races to be harvested later.

Also, it takes a great deal of time to travel by normal FTL back to the galaxy.

Obviously it didn't take them that long.

A year or so. But the Human Reaper should have been completed in that amount of time, although it would have to find new tools to access the Citadel Relay. Most likely, the Reapers follow 'tradition'; makes sense since Reapers are bio-synthetic, so they retain organic influences along with synthetic logic.

And the whole genocide thing is the same principle in Halo; to prevent an even bigger genocide by committing a smaller genocide.

And Halo handled the idea better. Master Chief doesn't turn around and say, "Well I guess we can't win after all, lets just do that thing you were gonna do." EDIT: Of course, Halo 3's story line isn't exactly spectacular. How nice of the Flood to just show up at the Arc so the Chief could wipe them out XD EDIT EDIT: Plus the idea was at the core of Halo's storyline. It just shows up in Mass Effect literally at the very end of the third game.

No arguments there. Bioware's rumored 'true ending' DLC had better be free, or a lot of complaints will overwhelm their mailboxes, electronic or otherwise.

I mean, didn't the Allies do something similar in WWII (fire-bombing German/Japanese Cities, using nuclear weapons on Hiroshima and Nagasaki)?

There aren't really any rules in story telling, but a general guideline is "real life makes for poor fiction." An ending where everyone dies stopping themselves from being killed by something else that was killing everyone so something else else wouldn't kill them is stupid fiction for something of Mass Effects tone.

Like I said though, for numerous things that are relatively minor in ME2, a lot of people including me just got pissed and were no longer willing to hand wave things away and started looking for reasons not to like it. There's a reason I say I'm biased Many of these plot points if I were to just relax are over lookable or can be explained away naturally. But I'm not willing to suspend disbelief anymore when it comes to Bioware so I go through everything they do with a fine toothed comb and a box of oreos.

Hatred over the end is going to court.

I'm confused as to why the outcry is being called "small vocal percentage." As far as I can tell just about everyone is either meh or super pissed.

But then that anyone thinks the FTC is going to care is being a moron. And if the FTC actually does something I'm just going to sit back and watch with a evil smirk on my face.

LordofHats wrote:
The comparison would matter if the Catalyst didn't act like he was achieving some lofty and noble goal. If they didn't care about us I doubt they'd "nobly" kill us all so we won't kill ourselves. I'm not the one saying they care about us, the god child is!

If you take what he says at face value, they don't care about "us", they care about organics. Sure, we're organic, but just some organics among infinitely many organics.

Its sort of like caring about people, but not every single person. Or, more accurately, the institution of hunting permits to prevent overpopulation, or decimation, of certain species.

LordofHats wrote:
I don't see what this has to do with anything. In ME3 what we have been given is a race of techno-organic beings who have been "nobly" purging the galaxy of advanced life, aka genocide, for tens or even hundreds of thousands of years to protect the galaxy from being wiped out by some assumed species of synthetic lifeforms. Protecting themselves makes sense but that's not what the ending gives us. It gives us a species that is nobly committing genocide to stop some supposed genocide that they think will happen if they don't commit theirs.

I don't see why that doesn't make sense. I also don't see where you're getting nobility from the ending. They're preserving organic life in the way they feel it can best be preserved because they want to preserve organic life. They're keeping the galaxy as a pet; much as the Geth maintain the Quarian homeworld, despite not living there.

LordofHats wrote:
That's stupid and nonsensical (and in no way hinted at or foreshadowed at any point in the ME series prior to ME3 at the least).

Wait, really?

ME1 straight up tells us that the Protheans weren't the first victims of the Reapers. What did you think their motivation was? Clearly not absolute destruction, if so they could have accomplished it easily. That's the only source of mystery.

LordofHats wrote:
And its just made worse that stopping them means blowing up the galaxy and committing genocide! Crap shoot endings are great and all, and maybe more reflective of the real world, but this one is a huge WTF for a series that had painted itself as being a little more upbeat. This is an ending I'd expect from 40k, not Mass Effect.

The series pitched itself as upbeat?

In the first game you're given the choice to let the most important political body in the galaxy die, and are forced to kill a crew member. If you don't act quickly enough in the second, your personal assistant is liquefied in front of you, and if you didn't prepare well enough you might die yourself. In the third, billions of people die before you're even given control.

LordofHats wrote:
Except that isn't what is stated. It makes sense but its not what we're told.

Legion explicitly states that each Reaper is the composition of billions of organic minds.

LordofHats wrote:
The Reapers worked as a sort of Lovecraftian destroyer race as they were presented in ME1. It might not be your cup of tea but it worked from a straight forward story stance. ME2 did pretty much nothing with the concept but twist it into something more complex but chaotic and confusing and rather than straighten it out and make sense of it, ME3 just makes it more confusing. I'm not buying the whole noble genocide thing. Its dumb. Bioware is either about to pull the greatest storyline twist of all time (for an additional $10 ) or they just managed to craft and emotional and powerful return as storytellers just to screw themselves with the ending.

I won't lie, every time Shepard said "The Reapers!" in the ME1 I threw up in my mouth a little. It just sounded stupid. It sounded even worse after Sovereign got punched out like Cthulhu. It got better in ME2, and better yet in ME3 when winning seems like a legitimately outside shot.

I think the ending scenes in ME3 weren't the best (the weird crash scene being the worst part), but they weren't awful either. They made sense to me given that your POV is Shepard, who isn't supposed to know what he's doing so much as just doing his best.

LordofHats wrote:I'm confused as to why the outcry is being called "small vocal percentage." As far as I can tell just about everyone is either meh or super pissed.

Well, yeah, and all conservatives hate gay marriage.

The loudest always seem more prevalent than they are.

Play instantly for those who hated


I hated the kid but it had better endings than most video games. Made me think. I thought about it and started a new campaign and loved it.

dogma wrote:Its sort of like caring about people, but not every single person. Or, more accurately, the institution of hunting permits to prevent overpopulation, or decimation, of certain species.

We don't issue hunting permits for deer to stop deer from creating robot-deers that will kill them.

What did you think their motivation was?

Something other than saving the galaxy from itself by killing everyone with an understanding of advanced robotics and AI programming.

LordofHats wrote:In the first game you're given the choice to let the most important political body in the galaxy die, and are forced to kill a crew member. If you don't act quickly enough in the second, your personal assistant is liquefied in front of you, and if you didn't prepare well enough you might die yourself. In the third, billions of people die before you're even given control.

A story can be sad and tragic (moments) and still be upbeat. Its not the content its how the content is approached, and in the past two games Shepard was the miracle man who managed to save the day... Not save the day by destroying civilization and defeating the whole point.

LordofHats wrote:Legion explicitly states that each Reaper is the composition of billions of organic minds.

I was referring to the self-preservation bit.

LordofHats wrote:

dogma wrote:Its sort of like caring about people, but not every single person. Or, more accurately, the institution of hunting permits to prevent overpopulation, or decimation, of certain species.

We don't issue hunting permits for deer to stop deer from creating robot-deers that will kill them.

What did you think their motivation was?

Something other than saving the galaxy from itself by killing everyone with an understanding of advanced robotics and AI programming.

LordofHats wrote:In the first game you're given the choice to let the most important political body in the galaxy die, and are forced to kill a crew member. If you don't act quickly enough in the second, your personal assistant is liquefied in front of you, and if you didn't prepare well enough you might die yourself. In the third, billions of people die before you're even given control.

A story can be sad and tragic and still be upbeat. Its not the content its how the content is approached, and in the past two games Shepard was the miracle man who managed to save the day... Not save the day by destroying civilization and defeating the whole point.

LordofHats wrote:Legion explicitly states that each Reaper is the composition of billions of organic minds.

I was referring to the self-preservation bit.

The Reapers are trying to get more of themselves. They are repopulating or populating. They are created from entire species.
It makes sense. The Reapers want to ensure that the synthetics do not destroy every sentient race so then they couldn't populate and get a new reaper from it.

Their entire goal is to control the galaxy. Putting fear into the next generations.

LordofHats wrote:
We don't issue hunting permits for deer to stop deer from creating robot-deers that will kill them.

We issue hunting permits for deer to prevent deer from overpopulating, and damaging the general ecosystem; which ultimately ends up with lots of dead deer.

LordofHats wrote:
Something other than saving the galaxy from itself by killing everyone with an understanding of advanced robotics and AI programming.

There aren't too many alternatives.

LordofHats wrote:
A story can be sad and tragic and still be upbeat. Its not the content its how the content is approached, and in the past two games Shepard was the miracle man who managed to save the day... Not save the day by destroying civilization and defeating the whole point.

I'll admit that Javik (the Prothean) changes the game a lot in terms of tone (and should have been included in the game), but I still don't see the problem. Shepard even getting to the Crucible, or even getting it built, makes him unique and miraculous. This is a foe that has destroyed sentient races for millennia, they're not going to lose to one man without him making many, many sacrifices.

I guess our major disagreement is a fundamentally different reading on the prior games. I don't see Shepard saving the day, I see him getting lucky because of a confluence of circumstances and his own skills; more so in ME2 than ME1. In ME3 circumstance is against him, and its only his skill and experience that allows him to even make it as far as he does, but its not enough to live happily ever after.

LordofHats wrote:
I was referring to the self-preservation bit.

Reproduction, and really just the introduction of novel influences, is part of self-preservation.

There aren't too many alternatives.

Alternatives to what? The Reapers have a claim that isn't at all supported by the fiction. The only organic synthetic conflict is the one between the Quarians and the Geth and its abundantly clear that its not the Geth who want the war, its the Quarians. They started it the first time and they started it again. As far as Mass Effect's story goes the Reapers are solving a problem that doesn't exist. That happens when you fundamentally switch theme in the last ten minutes.

I definitly agree we've read into the series from two angles (and we also seem to have a different approach to story)

EDIT: And as for Javik yes he should have. But don't worry. If you have a PC you can unlock him without paying though I wouldn't advise actually doing it with Origin watching