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nkelsch wrote:I have kinda thought an ‘open-sourced’ wargame designed for use with any models which was focused on balance and gameplay over models is an idea I would subscribe to in theory… I mean it sounds good right? The thing is, with the way I play, I would probably need a tourney event with 50 people and an all day guaranteed playing of painted models for me to justify taking the time to ‘go play’ this new game. The reason I play 40k is because I can show up, play and go home with minimal effort on my part.
Blood bowl is still the best game out there for true balance, fairness and tactical skill. And that has grown to really be model independent.

The thing is, I love the Warhammer world and the flavour of the battles, despite the fact I am lucky if I get a game in once a fortnight. It's all about the rules and the flavour; we've all had amusing moments where ICs have done something with their whacky rules, or a unit has performed hilariously. A 'take all comers' approach to a wargame would lose a lot of that flavour, at least that's how I imagine it.

biccat wrote:

Henners91 wrote:But, as said, I am a lightweight... on a night out four beers'll get me buzzed and then around three shots of vodka'll get me to where I want to be. £1.50 for a double at a club in town.

Four beers and 3 shots makes you a lightweight? Holy crap man.

If the four beers are consumed over the 2-2.5 hours we tend to spend pre-drinking and the shots between 11pm-2am, I think that's a spread wherein most people would stay standing. Most of my friends seem a helluva lot more resilient than me. But I am a rather spindly weed of a man :(


Automatically Appended Next Post:

mould2k wrote:University is its own economic world though. Once you leave you'll find yourself spending £100 (in London) on a decent night out no problem, no matter how much of a lightweight you are.

The point about craft hobbyists rings true with me. I don't play the game (none of my real life friends are into such "nerdy" pursuits) so I've been content with buying things just to paint up and look pretty. But I still feel this compulsion to buy not what looks cool, but what is game legal and competitive. Why? It makes no sense! I'm never ever going to play a game but I worry that stealthsuits aren't good enough and that I may not have enough crisis suits or what have you. I have fallen well and truely within the trap that I have been encouraged to buy more than I want to field an army that will never fight. I now have a ridiculous backlog of painting because of it.

Damnit.

Surely if one has no social pride all is well? Go rub shoulders with the grey-haired drunks in the Wetherspoons 'n' the drinks aren't so bad? Or do they scale up in different areas?


With regards to beer, I'm what my dad would dismiss as a terrible tragedy of my generation: That is, if I am going out, I will drink with the objective of getting drunk; so yeah, that's fosters 'n' shots... maybe even Snakebite if I can stomach that wretched stuff. (This is a tad OT; maybe we should have a Dakka beer thread? )

If I'm just being sociable I always try open with something nice (by my frugal standards); usually Old Speckled Hen or Newcastle Brown.. then I move onto John Smiths as my stomach can actually take that beating when it's only a couple of pints. Courage Best back at home absolutely grinds my guts, though, I love it, sure, but if I drink too many too quick I tend to err... react...

nkelsch wrote:
Yeah I still play, not like I did when I was younger but at some point I was probably one of the people who survived the 18month kill-off stage and ended up becoming a statistical anomaly which is ignored or a "craft hobbyists" which GW keeps on the hook by releasing me ork models every few year or so.

The problem is, their model works, or at least seems to... which is good for me. I get what I want. I get models I want and play fun games when I want. Other people are not so lucky...

I'm guessing that you don't take the games you do play as very serious/competitive events either and that you're relaxed about the whole thing. I find the people who enjoy the rules/game of 40k the most are the ones who care about it being a serious game the least. The ones who just want to put some models on the table top, move them around, blow crap up and sort of tell a story of a battle through the medium of miniature gaming.

And not really playing often means that you're not beholden to a FLGS to support so you have a place to play. Which means you can take advantage of places like Miniature Market @ 25% off. Up here in Canada, I can order from Miniature Market, The War Store or an eBay store and have it delivered to my door for nearly what the local stores pay as wholesalers. It was a lot worse before the US price increases, but it's still bad. I only buy stuff for use with other rules though. And lately I decided to get into 15mm scale stuff, so now I'm more interested in bitz that I can use for that scale like using Tau Stealth Suits as small mecha and some tyranid beasties as truly gigantic monsters.

I have kinda thought an ‘open-sourced’ wargame designed for use with any models which was focused on balance and gameplay over models is an idea I would subscribe to in theory… I mean it sounds good right? The thing is, with the way I play, I would probably need a tourney event with 50 people and an all day guaranteed playing of painted models for me to justify taking the time to ‘go play’ this new game. The reason I play 40k is because I can show up, play and go home with minimal effort on my part.
Blood bowl is still the best game out there for true balance, fairness and tactical skill. And that has grown to really be model independent.

GW just gave Bloodbowl miniature sales away with their bungling of it. There are so many great alternatives now, I can't see much reason to get official BB stuff from GW. It's a great game.

40k isn't really something I can just show up and play around here anymore. I know of regular Warmachine/Hordes game nights at local stores and clubs that happen 3 or 4 days a week. Also I know Dystopian Wars is played every Sunday at one shop. Same with Flames of War. I think another group at the local university is doing Malifuax Mondays at their anime & sci-fi student club.

As for other rules, there are lots of free options out there already. FUBAR, Fast And Dirty, No Limits, Chain Reaction 3.0 and so on. Just do a google search for any of the above with "miniature rules" and you should find them. A warning though-- if you're expecting GW level production quality, art and layout in a free product, you'll be disappointed. These games are meant to be played and are for gamers by gamers and largely do not have good layout and graphic design. They are fun though.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
@mould2k - purchasing miniatures to paint and not play with because of how they are in a rules set is precisely why I stopped "collecting" any game where the rules and miniatures are provided by the same company. I still play Warmachine because I have a few armies, but now I buy entirely on aesthetics for use with 3rd party rules.

Your case is a perfect example where the "rules as idea" marketing strategy is working perfectly.

cgage00 wrote:Also supporting china made products is one of the biggest reasons the united states is in its current state. But I guess all Americans now live in their Walmart mentality now.

How do you justify supporting an English company then?

TO PROVIDE FUNDS TO THE RED MENACE IS THE ULTIMATE CRIME AGAINST PATRIOTISM.

Srsly, those dollars'll go straight into the cruise missiles that'll be hitting Seattle in ten years. You heard it here first!

GW defenders always seem quick to point out that THEY can afford it and receive value for their purchase. It makes me wonder if all of their friends are as equally well off.

I have been blessed with moderate financial success, if I really want to buy GW stuff I most likely can. My gaming group, however, contains people from all sectors of society and some of them simply could not afford to play the game. Those of us who could gradually found it quite embarrassing to flaunt extravagant amounts of money to play a game that alienates a portion of our friends.

I suppose I could go down to the local GW and play with the 10 year olds there, or the weird-beards down at the FLGS but that's just not gaming for me. It's always been about getting together with my friends and having what basically amounts to a wholesome (compared to many of my other hobbies ) good time. I guess we could also wait to play 40k until our friends slowly build up their armies, but why bother? There are so many equivalent or better tabletop gaming experiences out there that are a better value that there is no other choice for myself and my group.

OP's post is relevant to my experience because it describes the process by which GW loses groups of players at once rather than individual consumers. It all begins with one person in the group feeling, like OP, that they can no longer justify spending that much money on the game. From there the dominoes begin to fall, whether it be caused by the social pressure to play a different game or consciousness of how much money you yourself have been paying. No one is happy when this happens, and thus the vast amount of bile directed at GW on the internet.

PhantomViper wrote:

cgage00 wrote:Also supporting china made products is one of the biggest reasons the united states is in its current state. But I guess all Americans now live in their Walmart mentality now.

How do you justify supporting an English company then?

The English company with its full product line made in the US.... That is how.

Well, the comparison relating to money is, you buy a video game for $60 usd or some miniatures, you can and I;m sure I will, use those miniatures for the rest of my life where as a video game ill only last a couple of months or less before you want a new one.

Dayvuni wrote:Well, the comparison relating to money is, you buy a video game for $60 usd or some miniatures, you can and I;m sure I will, use those miniatures for the rest of my life where as a video game ill only last a couple of months or less before you want a new one.

This can also work in reverse. I sure plenty of people still play older video games, and as we see with GW, 18 months is their target amount of time they want people in their 'hobby'.

mattyrm wrote: Yeah I only like Mantics Undead, the Dwarves blow, and 40k seems almost a total no-no, except for maybe some of the Marauders for Orcs.

The corporation models are quite popular. A lot of people prefer their scale also.

cgage00 wrote:

PhantomViper wrote:

cgage00 wrote:Also supporting china made products is one of the biggest reasons the united states is in its current state. But I guess all Americans now live in their Walmart mentality now.

How do you justify supporting an English company then?

The English company with its full product line made in the US.... That is how.

Queue immaturity:

Zarren Wevon wrote:GW defenders always seem quick to point out that THEY can afford it and receive value for their purchase. It makes me wonder if all of their friends are as equally well off.

What a broad brush you have there.

Personally, I can't afford GW products. Well, not the amount I'd like - I mean, I'm building two horde armies, one of this is the hordiest of horde armies they make, Vampire Counts. I take it slow, because I can't afford to go blow money on, say, 50 skeletons at once.

That doesn't mean I'm going to buy models I just don't like. I'm not going to go buy Mantic skeletons, for example, when I think they look hideous (in a model design perspective, not a horror perspective). just because they're cheaper. I'll just keep taking it slow with VC Skeletons.

It also doesn't mean that, as a GW 'defender', I'm going to buy their models if a 3rd party does them better. The Gamezone Mournful Knights have really grown on me, and fortunately, my FLGS stocks them. GW's Dire Wolves look capital T Terrible. Gamezones zombie wolves are far better - which, again, my FLGS stocks. These are, however, down to aesthetics, not price.

-Loki- wrote:

Zarren Wevon wrote:GW defenders always seem quick to point out that THEY can afford it and receive value for their purchase. It makes me wonder if all of their friends are as equally well off.

What a broad brush you have there.

Personally, I can't afford GW products. Well, not the amount I'd like - I mean, I'm building two horde armies, one of this is the hordiest of horde armies they make, Vampire Counts. I take it slow, because I can't afford to go blow money on, say, 50 skeletons at once.

That doesn't mean I'm going to buy models I just don't like. I'm not going to go buy Mantic skeletons, for example, when I think they look hideous (in a model design perspective, not a horror perspective). just because they're cheaper. I'll just keep taking it slow with VC Skeletons.

It also doesn't mean that, as a GW 'defender', I'm going to buy their models if a 3rd party does them better. The Gamezone Mournful Knights have really grown on me, and fortunately, my FLGS stocks them. GW's Dire Wolves look capital T Terrible. Gamezones zombie wolves are far better - which, again, my FLGS stocks. These are, however, down to aesthetics, not price.

I guess you are attacking my argument on the grounds that painting/assembling are equivocal to actually playing a game. Removed from the context of the rest of the post, you are probably correct, however my original post was on the topic of gaming groups and not painting clubs. I'm glad you have fun painting things, but mine is a gaming group first. We buy the figures to play the game and when our potential pool of opponents cannot grow because the price of the game keeps some of our long time friends from joining in on the fun we can no longer truly play the game. All of your aesthetically motivated concerns are unrelated to the effect that GW's pricing structure has on established gaming groups, which my post sought to discuss.

Zarren Wevon wrote:
I guess you are attacking my argument on the grounds that painting/assembling are equivocal to actually playing a game. Removed from the context of the rest of the post, you are probably correct, however my original post was on the topic of gaming groups and not painting clubs. I'm glad you have fun painting things, but mine is a gaming group first. We buy the figures to play the game and when our potential pool of opponents cannot grow because the price of the game keeps some of our long time friends from joining in on the fun we can no longer truly play the game. All of your aesthetically motivated concerns are unrelated to the effect that GW's pricing structure has on established gaming groups, which my post sought to discuss.

There is the rub... Gamers can play a 'game' with coke cans and tiddlywinks... and many do. And GW's response is "we don't sell a game, our real customers are not gamers and people who are gamers are an insignificant statistically anomaly..." Even GW admits their game is not much of a game and one of the reasons people tolerate the imbalance is because people like grimdark and skulls and space marines. If the game was without the models, the game wouldn't be able to stand on its own rules.

If it is true they see 2/3rds of their customers are model collectors and don't even play the game, and the rest are people they don't intend to play the game for very long or at all, it makes sense. I mean why should GW give two craps about someone who is 'game first' which is going to use a downloaded PDF with Mantic models to play GWs game? What return is there on making the game better or making the models cheaper to appeal to people who don't care about the models in the first place and would be just as happy gaming with paper printouts.

People buy GW models because they like GW models. People who don't like them or don't care about models in general are not GW's customers.

cgage00 wrote:

helium42 wrote:Made two purchases from a chinese recaster, Draigo and Crowe, both were better than any copy I could find on a shelf somewhere. And I sure as hell am through trying to mail order anything finecast after the horrible crypteks, overlord, and Imotekh I got.

I'll only risk buying finecast in person where I can inspect it in its package before opening, open it after purchase, and exchange/return it on the spot. With this being said, I don't know if QC is getting any better but there was a GW store grand opening near me a week ago, and I looked through a lot of their finecast stock on the shelves, and could not find any visible flaws. Picked up a dark elf assassin which turned out pretty much flawless.

It's people like you that ruin a good business. Buying a recast/copy is highly unethical. Also supporting china made products is one of the biggest reasons the united states is in its current state. But I guess all Americans now live in their Walmart mentality now.

It's people like me that ruin a good business? Exactly how? Because I won't buy a flawed product from them, and instead buy a cheap copy of said product? If GW could get their gak together with finecast I would have no problem with purchasing from them, but as it stands, I've been burnt too many times on that end.

I couldn't find a decent copy of Draigo or Crowe without visible flaws through the package, and after already getting five out of five poorly cast necron models through mail order, I broke down and sought out an alternative. I don't find buying from a recaster unethical if I can not buy a decent cast version from the original source.

Do you buy only items that are manufactured here in the States? I have no problem doing business in other countries. We live in a global economy and the economies of the US and China are actually both tightly interwoven. I wonder where the computer you're using to type your silly argument on was manufactured? Most likely in China.

Zarren Wevon wrote:I guess you are attacking my argument on the grounds that painting/assembling are equivocal to actually playing a game.

No, I was attacking the argument that quanity of models is the most important thing when considering what models to buy (based on 'they can't afford it', and the cost comes from having to buy so many models).

I simply ignore how many more models I need. I buy models that are aesthetically pleasing. If it means I pay $40au for 10 VC Skeletons compared to the same for a whole regiment of Mantic skeletons, oh well - I won't get the built and painted if I hate the models, and I won't play with unpainted models. If it means I spend $80au on 5 Mournful Knights rather than $165au on 5 GW Blood Knights, awesome.

helium42 wrote:

Do you buy only items that are manufactured here in the States? I have no problem doing business in other countries. We live in a global economy and the economies of the US and China are actually both tightly interwoven. I wonder where the computer you're using to type your silly argument on was manufactured? Most likely in China.

Not the same... Buying from international manufacturers is not the same as piracy and copyright infringement. Artists deserve to profit from their own work and companies deserve to be able to not have knockoffs and counterfeits competing against them int he marketplace.

Being entitled and selfish doesn't justify knockoffs because you 'waaaaaaaaaaaaant' it.

I would have never considered buying a recast if I could have found an unflawed finecast version. If anyone is screwing over the artists it is GW for producing horribly miscast models in a soft and brittle resin.


We can do without the rest of this, thanks.
Reds8n

helium42 wrote:I would have never considered buying a recast if I could have found an unflawed finecast version. If anyone is screwing over the artists it is GW for producing horribly miscast models in a soft and brittle resin.

And as for your little barb about being entitled or selfish, that is exactly what I expect to hear out of a prick like you. In my short time here at dakka, you've pulled the same crap and attacked posters in the same manner time and time again.

If someone wishes to compete against GW with their own sculpts, more power to them. Counterfeits are not justified simply because you want them. Simply do without and don't buy the product if the product is poor quality. So please don't compare legitimate international purchasing in the world economy to illegal bootleg purchases or promote it on dakka where it is not supported.

-Loki- wrote:

Zarren Wevon wrote:I guess you are attacking my argument on the grounds that painting/assembling are equivocal to actually playing a game.

No, I was attacking the argument that quanity of models is the most important thing when considering what models to buy (based on 'they can't afford it', and the cost comes from having to buy so many models).

I simply ignore how many more models I need. I buy models that are aesthetically pleasing. If it means I pay $40au for 10 VC Skeletons compared to the same for a whole regiment of Mantic skeletons, oh well - I won't get the built and painted if I hate the models, and I won't play with unpainted models. If it means I spend $80au on 5 Mournful Knights rather than $165au on 5 GW Blood Knights, awesome.

Again, I am impressed with your devotion to the concept of aesthetics but ultimately find it lacking. Those of us trying to play a game are interested in the mechanical aspects that the figure represent, trying to find optimal or strategically unique combinations of units. Where you might suggest that on this level the game can be played with bottle caps I would counter that the three dimensional models are the most compelling aspect of miniature war gaming. No other type of gaming gives you the same granularity without infinite complexities.

The figures are central to the game. The greatly reduced prices offered by mantic only apply to a small portion of armies and units. In the case of 40k, the use of the GW intended models is most preferable due to the many unique silhouettes of the units in the game. Consistency ensures fairness, fairness makes the game fun.

I'm sure your position makes sense to you but from my point of view it sounds more like a justification than a reason.

Other people's justifications for this and that really aren't interesting at all.

All I want to discuss is the effect GW pricing has on existing game groups.

Zarren Wevon wrote:Again, I am impressed with your devotion to the concept of aesthetics but ultimately find it lacking. Those of us trying to play a game are interested in the mechanical aspects that the figure represent, trying to find optimal or strategically unique combinations of units. Where you might suggest that on this level the game can be played with bottle caps I would counter that the three dimensional models are the most compelling aspect of miniature war gaming. No other type of gaming gives you the same granularity without infinite complexities.

The figures are central to the game. The greatly reduced prices offered by mantic only apply to a small portion of armies and units. In the case of 40k, the use of the GW intended models is most preferable due to the many unique silhouettes of the units in the game. Consistency ensures fairness, fairness makes the game fun.

I'm sure your position makes sense to you but from my point of view it sounds more like a justification than a reason.

Other people's justifications for this and that really aren't that interesting at all.

All I want to discuss is the effect GW pricing has on existing game groups.

Again, Mr Broadbrush, you're using a very broad brush.

Not everyone thinks like that. Not everyone just wants to get down to the machanics of the game and 'game it'. There's a lot of people into the aesthetics of the game as well, who also play the same game you're playing. These are also existing groups, these people have been around for a long time. Just look how many people are running entire army plogs here and on other websites - they're not painting entire legal armies full of time consuming conversions and alternate models (which sometimes even wind up more expensive than GW models) to sit them on a shelf. They're doing it because they enjoy the aesthetics as much as the game.

I was merely reacting to the part about only very well off people can afford to, or even do, buy GW models. It's simply not true. They might buy slower, but to some people, aesthetics are enough that they don't want to buy terribly sculpted models because they're cheaper, and they'll still buy the expensive GW models if they prefer them. They'll still end up with an army. Just not all in one hit.

Nothing against people who do want to use Mantics stuff - but you're a not serious gamer because you don't care about the aesthetics.

You know, I keep hearing about GW fanbase defending GW. Honestly I believe a big part of it is because many are old timers who haven't had to buy a new army in a while.

Lets "Buy" a new army in this post. In this case space wolves. I am going to use the GW website, so straight from the source. At the end, I am going to apply the normal discount you can find online (20%) just to show what buying from a third party could be like.

This is a 2000 pt list. Standard game size here.

I used the latest Army Builder to quickly make the army I would want.

Njal Stormcaller, Terminator Armor: 22.25

Ragnar Blackmane - 19.75

Thunderwolf Cavalry, I need 5 total for my list so 2 boxes.
109 USD

Fenrisian Wolves - 24.75

Space Wolves Pack (I need 2 for 2 grey hunters packs)- 74.50

Rhino Transports (I always just get razorbacks, more bang for your buck and easy to switch from razorback to rhino)
70

Wolf Guard With Wolf Claws (Lone Wolf) 19.75

Vindicator 49.50

Long Fangs (now I have six in a squad here so need 2 extra dudes. For the sake of argument lets say I picked up 2 dudes from a fellow hobbyist)
70

Lets add this up. 56 total models BTW

459.50 USD, before tax. Knock 20% off if you get the average third party deal: 367.6

Now that doesn't seem so bad, but what about paints?
Brush, 7 bucks
Paints: 3.7 Times 10 (two sets of five) (I did a base, a layer, a shade, a dry, and a texture for fun, times two to cover all models) 37 bucks
Primer: 15.75 (Holy crap when did that get so expensive?)
Glue: 13.2 for both types
PVA Glue: 8.25
2 Tubs of Basing (Ground and Snow) : 16.5
Grass Tufts : 13.25
Varnish: 15.75

Subtotal: 126.70 USD

For the new totals I added the second figure to the first figure and did the normal math for 20% discount.

GW: 586.20 USD
Third Party: 468.96

Rulebooks:
Codex: 33
BRB: 57.75
Dice: 8.50 (from the Chessex website)
Subtotal: 99.25

The above numbers change yet again:

GW: 685.45
TP: 548.36

No, I will not entertain conversation about the above lists viability in a tourney, that is not the point. I am showing you how expensive this hobby is starting out. I *think* I covered it all.

EDIT: forgot rulebooks, Dice!

This doesn't include a case, which I had to have starting out. Now I calculated another space wolves army at near 1000 for a 2000pt army earlier but didn't mention that here thinking the above list would be closer to what most newbies would buy.

Now, I have always wanted to start fantasy! (More expensive from what I am told!) Lets get skaven. I would get dwarves but dwarves just don't work the way I want them to with the current codex:

Plague Furnace: 57.75
Lord Skrolk: 15.00
Plague Monks: 70
Clanrats: 35
Stormvermin: 49.50
Ratling guns: 30
Doomwheels: 66
Warp Lightning Cannon: 33
Poisoned Globadiers: 80
Subtotal:
GW: 436.25
TP: 349.00

Thats just the army, Interesting to note it's right around the same cost as the space wolves army. You can figure the cost of this to be about the same overall as the space wolves army above, save the fact the rulebook will boost the price a bit being near 20 bucks more.

Do note that this is the average costing army, others are more expensive and a few are cheaper.

I would not ever Be able to drop 500-700 bucks in one go. I COULD arguably do it in a few months back when both me and my roommate were working.

Spectral Dragon wrote:You know, I keep hearing about GW fanbase defending GW. Honestly I believe a big part of it is because many are old timers who haven't had to buy a new army in a while.

I've been building a Tyranid army for the last year or so at Australian retail prices. I defend them, at least on the Tyranid front, because the amjority of whats out there from 3rd parties are terrible.

Also because, after adding up what I spent on video games for 4 systems over 4 years, I realised I could have bought several 3000 point armies, at Australian retail, plus Forgeworld centerpeices for the same price, and get infinitely more enjoyment out of them all.

That said, I'm not going to only stick to GW's stuff for their games. They also make some flatout terrible models, or price them beyond even what I can defend (Blook Knights, I'm looking at you).

GW finds new customers to replace customers who no longer choose to budget for the hobby. No offence, but if you are not willing to pay they honestly do not care; new hobbyists come and go. None of you are special.

Eldar Jetbikes - 15$ each.

SoB Meltas - 10$ each.

Yea their prices are AWEFUL

nkelsch wrote:

helium42 wrote:

Do you buy only items that are manufactured here in the States? I have no problem doing business in other countries. We live in a global economy and the economies of the US and China are actually both tightly interwoven. I wonder where the computer you're using to type your silly argument on was manufactured? Most likely in China.

Not the same... Buying from international manufacturers is not the same as piracy and copyright infringement. Artists deserve to profit from their own work and companies deserve to be able to not have knockoffs and counterfeits competing against them int he marketplace.

Being entitled and selfish doesn't justify knockoffs because you 'waaaaaaaaaaaaant' it.

I suspect that helium42 is also responding to the below argument from cgage00, who had already made that comparison on the previous page.

cgage00 wrote:

helium42 wrote:Made two purchases from a chinese recaster, Draigo and Crowe, both were better than any copy I could find on a shelf somewhere. And I sure as hell am through trying to mail order anything finecast after the horrible crypteks, overlord, and Imotekh I got.

I'll only risk buying finecast in person where I can inspect it in its package before opening, open it after purchase, and exchange/return it on the spot. With this being said, I don't know if QC is getting any better but there was a GW store grand opening near me a week ago, and I looked through a lot of their finecast stock on the shelves, and could not find any visible flaws. Picked up a dark elf assassin which turned out pretty much flawless.

It's people like you that ruin a good business. Buying a recast/copy is highly unethical. Also supporting china made products is one of the biggest reasons the united states is in its current state. But I guess all Americans now live in their Walmart mentality now.

Derpnofun wrote:GW finds new customers to replace customers who no longer choose to budget for the hobby. No offence, but if you are not willing to pay they honestly do not care; new hobbyists come and go. None of you are special.

Nice first post, Welcome to Dakka


Honestly though he does have a point. GW's 'target market' will stay in the GWPLC hobby for 18-24 months, never complete a 'full army' and be replaced by another 'little timmy'. Everything else is just gravy to them, the rest of us are just those 'weirdo's from the old days who haven't moved on yet'....well some have.

It's not really that expensive when you consider all the time you get of the minis.

What can I say mate. Maybe look for a better paying job?

A Vampire Counts battalion costs the equivalent of £116 here.

£70 would be a dream.

In US dollars, Australians pay $185.00 for the Battalion.

The $115 Americans pay from GW retail is cheaper than Australians can generally access from most online retailers.

So yeah, to the OP; Maybe go easy on "a certain Australian who ha[s] incredible vendettas".

Competing systems are far cheaper here when you consider that there are no embargoes preventing their import, and prices at brick & motar stores are generally quite reasonable too.

So yeah, for the thousands of wargamers in Australia (and probably other countries) the whole "Other systems are just as expensive as GW" argument really doesn't work.

MeanGreenStompa wrote:Of all the Warhammer armies, the Vampire Counts is the easiest to entirely build without a single GW mini in it.

Use Mantic for the rank and file and Gamezone Miniatures and Avatars of War for your knights/vampires etc.



(as a side note, does anyone know where to score any of these anymore?)



Those are the rackham vampires they released just before they went down the tubes.

You can get these in the Confrontation Ram Army Box. I have 6-8 of them or so.

They are nice models.

GW wont lower there prices even if they lose because they never will. Some stuff is major over priced but just dont buy it. Its weird that GW prices have caught up with forgeworld.