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£70.

Seventy Pounds.

Now, on Dark Sphere it's £50... but I can't even find myself wanting to pay that.

Look at what's in the box. It may still be a 'good deal' if I add up the retail prices of everything in there, but, having built thirty skeletons from Mantic as well as twenty GW skeletons that I bagged for £10 off of eBay, I was feeling rather content that my first substantial foray into Fantasy was going relatively cheaply. Yet I hear a lot of good stuff said about the contents of the VC Battalion, I've even been told some of the stuff in there is essential.

But when I stare at it; forty infantry, ten wolves and a cart... well, by GW standards it might not be horrible to get it for £50, but it really is just paying for the brand name when you think about just how much stuff, mantic or otherwise, one could get from other providers for that price tag.

I've defended GW quite vehemently in the past; I used to say 'It takes me about a week to paint up a squad of Guardsmen that cost me £12; you go to the cinema for £7 and you're entertained for only two hours' and other such nonsense (I say my argument is flawed because going to the cinema is a 'social activity', unlike painting Warhammer [I do it in isolation; I know that's not true for everyone]). I would dismiss competitors as lesser in quality (I must admit that the Mantic Skellies, despite being a joy to put together, are not as detailed [see shields]), lacking in Warhammer's awesome fluff and just generally flouted by whiners and people such as a certain Australian who have incredible vendettas against Wargaming's only high street presence. I had no interest in deviating to other rulesets because of Warhammer's flavour.

But, to be honest, I've been hit by a realisation that I don't have to leave Warhammer's universe/rulesets behind. Up until my Orks I'd always built my armies to be 'GW/tourney-friendly' despite having no interest in playing in GWs (kiddies and the average punters to the store tend to get on my nerves) and lacking any competitive desire to go stomp on/get stomped on at a tournament. As a matter of fact, my typical game is either at my very relaxed University wargaming club or just a friendly setup at home where I let a friend use all of my armies. Why have I been such a sucker and paid GW's ridiculous prices?

I've been working on my Orks, amongst which GW parts constitute only the odd arms, heads and bikes (and apologies to anyone who might've been following the blog; a holiday and other hobby commitments have resulted in me having to postpone finishing my vehicles) and despite the price tag working out at about the same as an average Warhammer army, it's been because I am using resin parts to make that army unique. Nobody else will have anything like it. My vehicles are 1/35 scale WWII stuff, my Boyz are Kromlech/Puppetswar/MaxMini hybrids. That is an army I can be proud of unlike, say, my Cadians or Dark Angels who just resemble everyone else's flavours of the month.

I'm not sure what I am trying to say, maybe this is a rant. But I've considered myself a great GW bootlicker in the past and I have to ask myself just what the point is. Truthfully, I was given my inheritance/nest egg/etc early in life and I'm not hard-done for money, unlike some students, I can afford it. But I decided to rage about GW after I just added the battalion to my cart on Dark Sphere and found myself unable to progress any further. I literally feel like I am pouring my money down the drain.

So GW haters... I've not quite joined you, but I can't defend them anymore. I'm not for a moment going to suggest that people shouldn't buy the product; if I were high-flying to the point money meant nothing, or maybe in a family situation where it's not money, but time, that's precious to me... (I long to be a forty year old with a shed), then that's cool.

I am going to get my hands on a VC Army Book, get a vampire, and maybe buy some more Mantic to flesh out my force so that it's playable, then I can at least learn Fantasy, despite not being competitive.

But beyond that, I am going to my other hobby commitments. My girlfriend loves Lord of the Rings and I bagged her thirty Wood Elves for £10, they need painting. My Orks are dying to be finished (and I actually have the parts), I want to scratch-build a 1/72 Russian village just for kicks. I bought a bunch of ArmourFast stuff on holiday that could use some love... and, hell, maybe my GKs could have their paintjob finished and I could get pics up here.


TL;DR - GW Fanboy finally realises that the hobby is slightly over-costed... he's not going to leave but, rather, find ways to cut costs and stop vehemently defending the price rises.

The old VC batallion was bigger and cheaper :/

I appreciate what you are saying and I note you allude to it in your post, but you have chosen a bit of a dud example, or to put it another way, there are lots of other examples of much worse pricing. In general, the battalion boxes are probably an example of the better sorts of deals you can get with GW; it's still overpriced (IMO) but you can achieve a saving.

Obviously, the difference comes from comparing GW to other manufactures. Personally, owning both, I much prefer the Mantic skellies over GW ones; the proportions are much better. The price being cheaper is just a big bonus.

I think a lot of people are coming to the same realisation; that liking GW games does not have to equate to liking GW. Myself, I will continue to play GW games but on my own terms and on my own budget. If that means searching Ebay for seconds or searching for alternative manufacturers, then I will.

I actually was on holiday in Weymouth and saw the old VC Battalion for £50 in an independent stockist; I didn't get it because it had no Dire Wolves - a mistake?

filbert, I get that we're making a saving; but it's a saving by GW's standards, not common sense. The fact that such an overpriced boxset saves you money off of its contents when bought separately just shows how ludicrous the pricing of individual items has become.

Hell, even the Army Book, although hardback, is still £25.

I'm hoping that maybe GW, though not lowering prices, might try leaving them static and let inflation lower them in real terms over a long period. Maybe they can see how their sales trend?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As for mantic skellies, I like them, but the shields are rather poor. Furthermore I'm not so keen on the lack of poses; there are a few set ones and most only let you reposition one arm... I own twenty at the minute and I can already see some repetition in the ranks. I plan on buying around about twenty more and thirty odd GW skeletons. If I go further I might want about 1/3rd of the skeleton horde to be GW, with the mantic stuff all evenly dispersed to avoid repetition.

Still, the GW kit is a nightmare to put together, being as clumsy with plastic glue as I am... lots of spoiled arms

Henners91 wrote:
As for mantic skellies, I like them, but the shields are rather poor. Furthermore I'm not so keen on the lack of poses; there are a few set ones and most only let you reposition one arm... I own twenty at the minute and I can already see some repetition in the ranks. I plan on buying around about twenty more and thirty odd GW skeletons. If I go further I might want about 1/3rd of the skeleton horde to be GW, with the mantic stuff all evenly dispersed to avoid repetition.

You've got to remember that Mantic models are designed for very large* games, not the tiny skirmishes that a typical game of WFB represents. Units of 60+ models are catered for and expected.

To that ends, it is more like a historical game in its aesthetics, as it is not expected that people will be bothered about repetition of poses, as even with a huge variety, some repetition is inevitable without massive numbers of conversions.

And in any case, even a few different options still gives an impressive sight if the unit is large enough. As Napoleon allegedly said: "Quantity has a quality all of its own!", or something...

In any case, rather than discuss this further I leave you with a picture from my gallery:



This is a large unit of Mantic's zombies. The sprue contains 3 leg options (if you include rising from the ground), 3 body options (if you include a bare spinal column),a few heads and a couple of arms. Not a big deal. Yet, somehow, I think even with such limited variety, the unit still looks impressive and something to be a little proud of. And alongside another couple of units of similar size, even more so!

It's all a question of aesthetics. The GW aesthetic isn't the only valid one out there.


* by 28mm standards at least

Aye, I suppose you certainly have a point there. And it's not as if one runs small units of Skellies in WHFB.

One thing I really hate are the Revenants, though, when compared to Grave Guard. The eBay seller I got the thirty 'skeletons' off of had actually included ten Revenants. I'm hoping that they will be drowned out by the other models, but boooy does their aesthetic look strange. Reminds me of Italian Renaissance armour.

Your whinging about that?!

Ill raise you these guys..



£61.50 for the 5 of them.

I saw it in a WD and figured it was a misprint!

inb4australians.

Oh wai-

Get over it by GW standards that is tons of models £70 a little steep though.


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YOU ONLY £23.50

Just buy the models you like. But don't be surprised if when you broaden your horizons that the price is pretty much the same as GW.

Dabansheedude wrote:by GW standards

I feel one of my points is vindicated


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dabansheedude wrote:YOU ONLY £23.50

?

Ebay is your friend. I got a Keeper of Secrets for $15 the other day from there.

Honestly, I don't know why they kept the Corpse Cart in there.

marielle wrote:Just buy the models you like. But don't be surprised if when you broaden your horizons that the price is pretty much the same as GW.

They're really not.

Mantic produces an inexpensive range of miniatures that would fill up the rank & file for a number of fantasy armies - dwarfs, undead, elves, and to a lesser extent, orcs - which would significantly cut down on the price of a full army. Human rank & file - Empire, Brets, and some Chaos - can be easily found from historical ranges.

On the 40K side, it's a little more difficult. Mantic is the closest for Ork-like armies, but there are plenty of companies making futuristic soldiers that could substitute for Imperial Guard. Space Marines would be a little trickier, there are some people making power-armored infantry but they would be tricky to work into the aesthetic the army if you purchased GW HQ models. Plus, those models do tend to be close to GW prices (although, IMO, they look better). There's not much for replacing many of the Xenos races, unfortunately.

Yeah I only like Mantics Undead, the Dwarves blow, and 40k seems almost a total no-no, except for maybe some of the Marauders for Orcs.

But on topic, the box is pretty steep, but it aint THAT bad, If you buy it off a third party (doesn't everyone?) your still getting about what 50 odd models for 50 quid. Its not cheap, but its not crazy prices.

£62 for 5 models is though!

biccat wrote:

marielle wrote:Just buy the models you like. But don't be surprised if when you broaden your horizons that the price is pretty much the same as GW.

They're really not.

Human rank & file - Empire, Brets, and some Chaos - can be easily found from historical ranges.

Yeah, I know.

And I also know that if you want the same quality as GW, then you will also be paying roughly the same price.

marielle wrote:
Yeah, I know.

And I also know that if you want the same quality as GW, then you will also be paying roughly the same price.

Actually many Chinese recasters have a quality similar (some arguably better) to that of GW finecast but are significantly cheaper.

marielle wrote:And I also know that if you want the same quality as GW, then you will also be paying roughly the same price.

I was* looking at doing** a whole Empire army based on Perry Miniatures' cavalry with some Pike & Shotte infantry. The Perry stuff is certainly comparable quality (since they sculpt for GW) and the P&S infantry is (IMO) better than GW's state troops. Although I expect to have to replace the pikes with something a little less unwieldy.

Some of GW's stuff is very good (especially the newer models), but the Empire knights and state troops are not. Same goes for most of the Bretonnian line.

* remains to be seen. Depending on the quality of the new book.
** ok, re-doing, since I already have an Empire army

The Perry twins seem to do a lot of set poses though... If I will give GW any credit, they really let you individualise the individual models. In WHFB this is a bit of a null point though, since the armies are so large they will dwarf anything amongst your core hordes.

For HQs and prominent units, however, I'd say GW are the best out there.

But good call on state troops.

I have to say I disagree with the price being high for the fantasy battalion pack.

You get 40 infantry, 10 cavalry (equivalent to 20 infantry) and a war wagon.

Compare it with this historical bundle from Wargames Foundry.

http://wargamesfoundry.com/condottieri/collections/any/any/spanish_italian_wars_collection_bcren505/?sector_id=

You get 12 infantry, 12 cavalry (= 24 infantry) and a cannon and crew for £70. The price per figure is actually higher for the Foundry models.

Admittedly Foundry are a relatively expensive manufacturer of historicals, and I"m comparing plastic with metal, but I do think that particular deal is a relatively good one for GW.

biccat wrote:

marielle wrote:And I also know that if you want the same quality as GW, then you will also be paying roughly the same price.

I was* looking at doing** a whole Empire army based on Perry Miniatures' cavalry with some Pike & Shotte infantry. The Perry stuff is certainly comparable quality (since they sculpt for GW) and the P&S infantry is (IMO) better than GW's state troops. Although I expect to have to replace the pikes with something a little less unwieldy.

Some of GW's stuff is very good (especially the newer models), but the Empire knights and state troops are not. Same goes for most of the Bretonnian line.

* remains to be seen. Depending on the quality of the new book.
** ok, re-doing, since I already have an Empire army

Indeed, and I have done a similar thing - and indeed run into the same problem regarding the pikes.

A GW Fanboy finally whines about prices: 'I just can't do it"

You are not alone. Until the last year or so there wasn't a whole lot in the GW product line that I considered off-limits due to price. That has changed quite a bit for me recently, especially since May 28, 2011. There are now many kits, mostly Finecast, that I simply won't buy due to what I consider to be outrageous pricing. GW no longer has any regard at all for the $50 US price point and that means leaner model collections from now on for me and most of the long-time super-fans I know.

Generally, thanks to the mailing policy started last spring I don't get my White Dwarf in the mail till about 7-10 days after release in GW stores. By the time I get my copy the previews are old news. For the first time in about 20 years I'm planning to let my subscription lapse when it ends this year. Too expensive, no special subscription offers like they used to have, low hobby content and late mailing has made me finally decide to let WD go after all these years. It's a shame, and I'll miss it, but it's an idea whose time has come. GW made a lot of negative changes last May and WD mailing policy was one of them. I'm voting with my dollars by suddenly spending a lot less of them with GW.

Here's an interesting review of the Warhammer 40,000 25th Anniversary model at the link below. I've got my own extremely mixed feelings about the Finecast product due to very mixed experiences with it. Quality from my experience is a mixed bag, some models in Finecast are terrific, others regularly have many serious flaws in them. Generally and with select exceptions I avoid it, if for no other reason than the price which is what I consider to be excessive on many kits.

http://chestofcolors.com/warhammer-40000-25th-anniversary-space-marine-model-review/

http://wargamesfactory.com/webstore/myths-and-legends/wgf-ml002

Thirty guys, from DarkSphere I think it's about £11-£13

http://www.manticgames.com/Shop-Home/Kings-of-War/Undead/Core-Units-Zombies-and-Ghouls/Product/Undead-Ghoul-Regiment-20-Figures.html

Twenty ghouls, £13

The cavalry you have got me on; I am not aware of a cheaper alternative (that is - neither Dire Wolves nor Black Knights).

The corpse cart - well only GW makes those.

I will probably give in and get the battalion eventually - but I insist that the infantry aren't good value... the other stuff just isn't replaceable from other sources.

Bought separately is even worse; can you imagine getting £100 worth of skeleton boxes just to build a worthy horde? I'm going for a mix myself as I like the GW skellies, but I can't imagine doing a pure GW army!

Henners91 wrote:http://wargamesfactory.com/webstore/myths-and-legends/wgf-ml002

Thirty guys, from DarkSphere I think it's about £11-£13

http://www.manticgames.com/Shop-Home/Kings-of-War/Undead/Core-Units-Zombies-and-Ghouls/Product/Undead-Ghoul-Regiment-20-Figures.html

Twenty ghouls, £13

The cavalry you have got me on; I am not aware of a cheaper alternative (that is - neither Dire Wolves nor Black Knights).

The corpse cart - well only GW makes those.

I will probably give in and get the battalion eventually - but I insist that the infantry aren't good value... the other stuff just isn't replaceable from other sources.

Bought separately is even worse; can you imagine getting £100 worth of skeleton boxes just to build a worthy horde? I'm going for a mix myself as I like the GW skellies, but I can't imagine doing a pure GW army!

I find it funny that you highlight Wargame Factory. Ok maybe the furore didn't register on Dakka, but there are sections of the *bunny ears* community */bunny ears* that dislike them more than the fiercest GW baiters on here. But hey! they are cheap, and the skellies might be one of the better kits.

As for there being no alternatives, there are plenty if you put the time in on google. Just don't be surprised when you find out the price.

As you say you don't play in GW shops, or plan to play at Warhammer World, so I don't know why you are bothered about using non GW models.

Kanluwen wrote:Honestly, I don't know why they kept the Corpse Cart in there.

Because its a unit that is not popular yet they need to get rid of.

Because the box set is sold at hefty price aka a box stuffer like Dark Eldar Reavers.

My 2p.....

At the end of the day a good night out in town is £100, to fill my car is now £100, a pair of Trainers £80 even a trip to Pizza hut for buffet lunch today was £10.

When you look at GW its prices are relevant in todays market. Also a £200 army can last quite a while as long as you play regularly.

Lets say you keep (said £200 army) for two years and play once a week.. it equates to roughly £1.92 per week. Also its worth some money at the back end of year two so you could sell it and get some money back. you cant say that with many things these days lol

I am happy to buy from webstores and ebay.....it isnt that bad as ong as you are careful.

Wow love can I be you for a day I'd love to blow 100 pounds on a good night out

Henners91 wrote:The corpse cart - well only GW makes those.

Gamezone manufactures a similar 'corpse cart': http://www.maelstromgames.co.uk/index.php?act=pro&pre=gmz_gmz_vmp_cht_101_000.

Admittedly, not quite the same as the GW one - lacks the character, but methinks is a suitable stand-in.

Of all the Warhammer armies, the Vampire Counts is the easiest to entirely build without a single GW mini in it.

Use Mantic for the rank and file and Gamezone Miniatures and Avatars of War for your knights/vampires etc.



(as a side note, does anyone know where to score any of these anymore?)



Those are the rackham vampires they released just before they went down the tubes.

marielle wrote:

Henners91 wrote:http://wargamesfactory.com/webstore/myths-and-legends/wgf-ml002

Thirty guys, from DarkSphere I think it's about £11-£13

http://www.manticgames.com/Shop-Home/Kings-of-War/Undead/Core-Units-Zombies-and-Ghouls/Product/Undead-Ghoul-Regiment-20-Figures.html

Twenty ghouls, £13

The cavalry you have got me on; I am not aware of a cheaper alternative (that is - neither Dire Wolves nor Black Knights).

The corpse cart - well only GW makes those.

I will probably give in and get the battalion eventually - but I insist that the infantry aren't good value... the other stuff just isn't replaceable from other sources.

Bought separately is even worse; can you imagine getting £100 worth of skeleton boxes just to build a worthy horde? I'm going for a mix myself as I like the GW skellies, but I can't imagine doing a pure GW army!

I find it funny that you highlight Wargame Factory. Ok maybe the furore didn't register on Dakka, but there are sections of the *bunny ears* community */bunny ears* that dislike them more than the fiercest GW baiters on here. But hey! they are cheap, and the skellies might be one of the better kits.

As for there being no alternatives, there are plenty if you put the time in on google. Just don't be surprised when you find out the price.

As you say you don't play in GW shops, or plan to play at Warhammer World, so I don't know why you are bothered about using non GW models.

Mantic does their skelly bundle of thirty for about £20 - that's the closest competitor. I just like the Wargame Factory skellies

I'm not that bothered really - I just like some of the GW stuff so I do want a small mix of it in there.