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If we can refrain from making unnecessary digs and throwing cheap insults at each other it'll make everyone's day much nicer.
Ta.

Loki wrote:No, I was attacking the argument that quanity of models is the most important thing when considering what models to buy (based on 'they can't afford it', and the cost comes from having to buy so many models).

I completely agree, I'm collecting Mantic Orcs at the moment not because they are cheaper (although that is a refreshing bonus) but because I prefer the design aesthetic of them when compared to the Brian Nelson-sculpted GW ones.

Although, you have to appreciate that miniature war gaming, and specifically playing GW games, has never been so expensive. I should think there are a great deal of gamers who might well have quit altogether if it had not been for cheaper priced alternatives. On a forum you will always get the more keen percentage of fans who will continue to buy despite price rises (one of whom might even buy that final box of tactical marines at £5 million ). But I think there are a great number of people who were perhaps more casual about the hobby and have had to lay it to one side. A couple of life-long friends of mine who had previously collected stuff (perhaps partly through my own prompting) are within that group - they enjoyed the game of course, but in their words the prices had become 'just ridiculous', the point at which the expenditure moved from a casual bit of fun to a serious investment. 'Worth' I think is a subjective thing to each of us, and the higher you keep pushing that bar, the more you will exclude customers to the point where only the extremely rich (and crazed? ) remain.

Incidentally, I've managed to get both friends back into playing again - through Mordheim and more recently Infinity. Both games that can be played and enjoyed for less than £50, which I think is a reasonable amount for most people. As much as Mantic seem to get lambasted on these forums, again they are probably helping to keep people interested in the miniature and wargaming hobby, by providing a reasonably priced alternative to those who are not able (or perhaps not willing) to pay GW's prices.

Barksdale wrote:It's not really that expensive when you consider all the time you get of the minis.

It's only fair to compare the prices to those of GW's competitors in the same industry. You can play practically any one and it will be cheaper to play than GW's core systems, in the way that they intend you to play them.

OP, I feel I have a very similar perspective to you in regards to this discussion, but perhaps I'm a little further down the line than youself.

I'm coming up to my first anniversary of not buying anything from GW. I wrote them a letter about 11 months back saying how I would regrettably not be purchasing any more of their products. It pains me to do so, but the combination of price hikes, a steady drop (in my opinion) in quality of their "hobby products" and the introduction of finecast, I have boycotted their products. I'm not going to dig up an old argument but suffice to say it's been an interesting year.

I had already nearly 100% replaced my tools, paints and sundries with alternative manufacturers and was sticking with GW for the models - an inferior product at a higher cost later and I threw in my cards.

I've continued to game and I've continued to hobby. I'm currently building a Vanilla SM and a CSM from old models sourced from eBay: I'm not buying anything that could potentially earn GW money so everything is a decade old or more. Yes, Wayland Games are suffering (slightly) from my lack of custom and I am suffering from a lack of new models, but I'm now propping up a lot more third-parties who honestly deserve my hard-earned greenbacks.

I'm very slowly adding to my Guard with OOP models, trades and plastic historical kits. If anything, leaving GW behind has been more fun that I would have thought. Yes I'm going to suffer when the new Eldar stuff gets released eventually, but if more people boycotted GW, they would have no option but to lower their prices.

A boycott will only work if you suffer for it - boycotting "not buying GW on weekends" doesn't work as you're just postponing the purchase. I don't wish to soapbox but I choose to vote with my wallet and continuing to play 40k has been a very interesting experience all round!

Well done OP - I'd like to congratulate you. I would like to see more people taking the braver option just like you did. I can honestly advise you stick with it - you'll find so many great alternatives and there's a wealth of fun in that alone.

Yeah eBay actually is pretty fun just for what can turn up.

I think I'm well suited to eventually make the decision to quit buying GW... I've become a helluva lot more comfortable with scratch-building and conversions and started looking into alternate models too.

Eldar are a dream on eBay at the moment; the old Aspect Warriors (amongst which I think Dark Reapers are the silliest-looking - I actually like the Scorps, Banshees 'n' others) seem to go incredibly cheap, barring Fire Dragons, as people seem to hate the models. I picked up 8 Striking Scorps for £11 the other week, made me jump for joy

But thanks for the nice sentiments there

By any chance would someone run the numbers on building a competitive VC army using Mantic figures + GW ones for the ones not available in Mantic (or HQ ones)? I have no idea in building a good VC army since I don't play WHFB but planning to do so in the future, and would like to compare prices.

I wouldn't recommend going fully Mantic... I've changed my tune a little from my OP now I have worked with them some more. I'd say make about 1/3rd to 1/2 of the army Mantic, for the rest go with other Skeletons (I sort of like the Wargame Factory ones, but they're a little fragile; a LOT cheaper though and actually look better).

I also happen to think that Wayland Revenants look balls-ugly :(

Undead used to be a fun mass army to play.

Glad I scored mine when they were cheap.

As to the "Finally",

Sorry to see another fan driven away by corperation greed.


I should post the obligatory "Whee I'm a porche" picture, but I see that as peeing on your shoes.

Sorry that you finally hit the failcost wall.

bad news all around- expect another cost hike to shore up the loss.

I dunno, I kinda like the look of their Skeletons and Revenant Cavalry. I'm good with all of them as my troops.

Henners91 wrote:Yeah eBay actually is pretty fun just for what can turn up.

I think I'm well suited to eventually make the decision to quit buying GW... I've become a helluva lot more comfortable with scratch-building and conversions and started looking into alternate models too.

Eldar are a dream on eBay at the moment; the old Aspect Warriors (amongst which I think Dark Reapers are the silliest-looking - I actually like the Scorps, Banshees 'n' others) seem to go incredibly cheap, barring Fire Dragons, as people seem to hate the models. I picked up 8 Striking Scorps for £11 the other week, made me jump for joy

But thanks for the nice sentiments there

Agreed - Eldar is a winner right now, I've nearly doubled the number of Aspect Warriors I own. I also own a lot more metal models now than at any other point. The real tricky part is using third-party models. IG is easy to proxy out really, check out my eight quid Leman Russ for instance:


I uploaded that just for you :-)

I love the boxy look of KV-2 turrets.

I am not a lawyer, but as I understand copyrights to miniatures in UK is cancelled after 25 years from release if not extended. And lately we have 25 years of W40k. Do an of You have more knowledge about copyrights for old GW figures? I love those old style miniatures .

What makes you suppose GW wouldn't extend their copyrights? And anyway, I don't think it is a cut and dried case of 'use it or lose it'.

Horror wrote:I am not a lawyer, but as I understand copyrights to miniatures in UK is cancelled after 25 years from release if not extended. And lately we have 25 years of W40k. Do an of You have more knowledge about copyrights for old GW figures? I love those old style miniatures .

iv.Artistic
photography, painting, sculptures, architecture, technical drawings/diagrams, maps, logos.


6.Duration of copyright
The 1988 Copyright, Designs and Patents Act states the duration of copyright as;
i.For literary, dramatic, musical or artistic works
70 years from the end of the calendar year in which the last remaining author of the work dies.

If the author is unknown, copyright will last for 70 years from end of the calendar year in which the work was created, although if it is made available to the public during that time, (by publication, authorised performance, broadcast, exhibition, etc.), then the duration will be 70 years from the end of the year that the work was first made available.

ii.Sound Recordings and broadcasts
50 years from the end of the calendar year in which the work was created, or,

if the work is released within that time: 50 years from the end of the calendar year in which the work was first released.

iii.Films
70 years from the end of the calendar year in which the last principal director, author or composer dies.

If the work is of unknown authorship: 70 years from end of the calendar year of creation, or if made available to the public in that time, 70 years from the end of the year the film was first made available.

iv.Typographical arrangement of published editions
25 years from the end of the calendar year in which the work was first published.

v.Broadcasts and cable programmes
50 years from the end of the calendar year in which the broadcast was made.

vi.Crown Copyright
Crown copyright will exist in works made by an officer of the Crown, this includes items such as legislation and documents and reports produced by government bodies.

Crown Copyright will last for a period of 125 years from the end of the calendar year in which the work was made.

If the work was commercially published within 75 years of the end of the calendar year in which it was made, Crown copyright will last for 50 years from the end of the calendar year in which it was published.

vii.Parliamentary Copyright
Parliamentary Copyright will apply to work that is made by or under the direction or control of the House of Commons or the House of Lords and will last until 50 years from the end of the calendar year in which the work was made.

http://copyrightservice.co.uk/copyright/p01_uk_copyright_law

I don't think GW will have to worry about their sculpts becoming public domain this century.

@Tek

Aww shucks that makes me feel twice as bad for not updating the P&M Blog my KV is in... I'll get around to finishing that as soon as I've finished assembling my VCs (have to have an army ready within two weeks!) but I definitely love that tank; I'm afraid it's Orky though

Why the hell are people forgetting the few price drops GW's done when releasing new products? Currently 5 Necron Immortals costs what? $35? Back then when they were around $12, 5 of them was $60. Even better, they improved the sculpt and put it in plastic.

LordTyphus wrote:Why the hell are people forgetting the few price drops GW's done when releasing new products? Currently 5 Necron Immortals costs what? $35? Back then when they were around $12, 5 of them was $60. Even better, they improved the sculpt and put it in plastic.

Did I blink and miss these drops?

Thats not a drop, it's a new product.

A box of 5 guards going from ten to eight is a drop. releasing a new (different sculpted) box of immortals which are easier to make is a new product.

Nom

nomsheep wrote:

LordTyphus wrote:Why the hell are people forgetting the few price drops GW's done when releasing new products? Currently 5 Necron Immortals costs what? $35? Back then when they were around $12, 5 of them was $60. Even better, they improved the sculpt and put it in plastic.

Did I blink and miss these drops?

Thats not a drop, it's a new product.

A box of 5 guards going from ten to eight is a drop. releasing a new (different sculpted) box of immortals which are easier to make is a new product.

Nom

The new product is considerably cheaper than the previous product, both products contain the "same" contents(One even has more bits)

It doesn't change the fact that buying 5 Immortals today is cheaper than buying 5 Immortals a year ago

Because they were more expense to make and sculpt in metal.

The sculpts have changed a great deal meaning they count as a new product (similiar to the incubi.)

Yes they are cheaper than metal.

Nom

nomsheep wrote:Because they were more expense to make and sculpt in metal.

The sculpts have changed a great deal meaning they count as a new product (similiar to the incubi.)

Yes they are cheaper than metal.

Nom

I just made the observation because people only seem to remember the times it's been more expensive to purchase a model than it was in the past.

And when they say that, they mean the same product.

These 'drops' are few and far between though.

Nom

LordTyphus wrote:

nomsheep wrote:Because they were more expense to make and sculpt in metal.

The sculpts have changed a great deal meaning they count as a new product (similiar to the incubi.)

Yes they are cheaper than metal.

Nom

I just made the observation because people only seem to remember the times it's been more expensive to purchase a model than it was in the past.

No.
Because there is a name for people that praise the 0.001% of "good" things GW does and ignores the rest :'P

Tis a very thin and flamey line you tred there lunaHound.

Nom

LunaHound wrote:

LordTyphus wrote:

nomsheep wrote:Because they were more expense to make and sculpt in metal.

The sculpts have changed a great deal meaning they count as a new product (similiar to the incubi.)

Yes they are cheaper than metal.

Nom

I just made the observation because people only seem to remember the times it's been more expensive to purchase a model than it was in the past.

No.
Because there is a name for people that praise the 0.001% of "good" things GW does and ignores the rest :'P

I'm not ignoring the bad though, if GW was the baby eating company people are making it out to be then they would of made them finecast and the same dealio as Flayed Ones and even then up the prices once they have some BS reason to justify it.

I have a concrete example where GW replaced a bad metal model with a great plastic one. Tyranid Warriors. The 2nd ed metals were way, way worse than the plastics that replaced them. And the plastics are still less per warrior than I paid back in 1997 thanks to some exchange rate changes.

But the problem is that since then GW changed from a set of rules that made something like three tyranid warriors feel important and useful to one that diminishes the value of their own product by drastically pumping up the model count and lowering the utility and points values of some things in the game. Three tyranid warriors in 3e on won't ever have the impact on the game they did when the model count was half of what it is now.

So you either accept that the quality of the complete package of miniatures + rules isn't there and just live with the worse experience or you use the miniatures with other rules. That's what I do. Why would I use a set of rules that is there to sell models when I can get rules that were designed first and foremost to be played?

LordTyphus wrote:

LunaHound wrote:

LordTyphus wrote:

nomsheep wrote:Because they were more expense to make and sculpt in metal.

The sculpts have changed a great deal meaning they count as a new product (similiar to the incubi.)

Yes they are cheaper than metal.

Nom

I just made the observation because people only seem to remember the times it's been more expensive to purchase a model than it was in the past.

No.
Because there is a name for people that praise the 0.001% of "good" things GW does and ignores the rest :'P

I'm not ignoring the bad though, if GW was the baby eating company people are making it out to be then they would of made them finecast and the same dealio as Flayed Ones and even then up the prices once they have some BS reason to justify it.

Wouldn't that mean they eat babies? :O

Finecasting them wouldn't make them evil, roughly 50% do make the grade, people forget that it's predecessor had a lot of flash and issues as well.

(morathi the hag-sorceress anyone?)

A little extra quality control and people would love finecast.

Nom

At the local GW, the manager personally inspects every finecast model and only puts the good ones out on the floor. And when people buy one, he tells them they should open it right then and there so if there are any flaws he couldn't see from outside the packaging (especially for the boxes) it can be immediately returned.

I would never buy a finecast model that I could not immediatley inspect and return on the spot. I don't even want to deal with waiting for replacements to ship out to me from GW's warehouse. That said, I still don't buy finecast because the one I did ended up being awful and me and the manager went through the whole inventory of that particular miniature with me buying and returning them until there were none. That was my only experience with finecast.

frozenwastes wrote:At the local GW, the manager personally inspects every finecast model and only puts the good ones out on the floor.

Which GW is this? I would personally hug the manager that would actually do this.

I had to promise not to say as his boss wants finecast issues only to be dealt with when a customer finds an issue, not an employee. Apparently they think their quality control is good enough and it's not the place of the guys running the stores to question that. So I guess you'll have to consider it internet bullcrap as I can't verify for you.

I think it would be a good way to improve overall QC on the cheap though. Keep it in the company itself, improves the public view on Finecast without the need to hire anyone new. All it'd really do is add to the time it takes to do inventory and stack the shelves; then not much extra work added to it as well.